lee_merrill
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I don't believe we choose to love God, I believe being in a relationship with him is by his choice of a given individual. Then love can be freely given to God, "we love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).
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bilby
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lee_merrill
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Or any suffering at all? It seems in principle you are objecting to all suffering. But again, God bears that suffering, and if the cross of Christ means anything at all, it means that God chooses the way of suffering, and asks us to follow him.
[P]He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” (Mark 8:31-33)[/P]
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Lee
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I don't see it that different say... from the pov that people promising to "love, honour and cherish". Unconditional love for some, may start meaningfully and develop just from the vow.
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bilby
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I think there's quite a difference between saying to someone "I love you, and I hope that over time, you will grow to love me"; and saying "I love you, and I hope that over time, you will grow to love me. And by the way, if you don't, I shall make sure that you spend eternity in agony".
One is romantic; The other is psychotic.
ruby sparks
Contributor
There's an 'or else' after the Christian God's 'love me'. I am truly amazed that you can't see the essential difference.
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ruby sparks
Contributor
Wow.
And apart from anything else, that doesn't remove the 'or else' part anyway, where there is a threat of punishment for not loving him back.
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ruby sparks
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I'm almost certain that many of those dying of cancer or having contracted River Blindness or having been crippled and orphaned during a tsunami might disagree with you there.
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Learner
Veteran Member
Not sure that its quite that way in bible imo. For both scenarios; if one doesn't love the other then living together in the same house or domain wouldn't work. One would have to leave. In the biblical sense its "no after life" which doesn't mean eternity in agony.
Not loving God in the context as not loving HIS ways is something else.
ruby sparks
Contributor
I have nothing to say to that. If you don't see it, I guess you don't see it. It's there. Repeatedly.
Also, regarding the various punishment(s). They're in there too. Repeatedly.
Can I ask.....the bible you have. Is it the regular one, the one with words in it?
Learner
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Fair enough Ruby old chum.
ruby sparks
Contributor
Go in peace. I forgive you.
Learner
Veteran Member
Yes but the phrases to "love God" in the view of those who already believe and those back then in the bible witnessed and have seen HIS interactions. Once HIS existenced was acknowledged and evident to them :seen with their eyes (like the Israelites) ... to love between God or other deities would therefore have consequences. Not loving God in this context of the past means hating God.
I do like books with pictures but I do sometimes use Septuagint , KJV , with refs from several others (at the moment online) but not the modern unless there are phrases in discussion from the new versions in which I compare with the older books.
ruby sparks
Contributor
Sure. But what about us that neither believe in him nor love him? We tend to read what's been written about him slightly differently than those who believe.
I don't hate him. It would be irrational to hate something you don't think exists. I might as well hate you know whats (begins with an 'E' and the plural has four letters, two of which are 'l' and 'f' in that order).
Whoops 5 letters and a 'v' not an 'f'!
ruby sparks
Contributor
I don't even hate the idea of him. In principle, it's a lovely idea, especially if you emphasise the attractive qualities. Not so much the unattractive ones. But, hey, who's perfect?
Learner
Veteran Member
Well you certainly don't hate God (something you don't believe in).Would there be such punishment like that of a murderer?
Personally I don't think so although I wouldn't preach what I'm not so sure about -I'm learning but I would say this would be the same for people who have lived in countries where Christianity would not of reached yet.
God is a righteous God ... is my take on it at the moment.
Personally I don't think so although I wouldn't preach what I'm not so sure about -I'm learning but I would say this would be the same for people who have lived in countries where Christianity would not of reached yet.
God is a righteous God ... is my take on it at the moment.
ruby sparks
Contributor
If you want to know what I think, I think the people who wrote the bible were, like all of us, 'prisoners' of their own zeitgeist. Their conceptions of stuff like for example morality were likely not the same as ours. Personally, I think it's.......tricky.....to get your morality from stuff written thousands of years ago far away and by people living in very different circumstances.
ruby sparks
Contributor
Yeah, human societies all over have come up with broadly similar moral codes. Imo, that's probably because human societies all over need to function in similar ways. That said, I think times were harsher back then and as a result, and perhaps as a result of there being less understanding of the causes of various things, justice was more harsh too. We know a lot more about mental illness now, for example. There is arguably no need for explanations involving demons.
ruby sparks
Contributor
And as I said earlier, go back to the early OT texts and you read (in more than one of them) that cursing your parents was a capital offence! They didn't have 'teenagers' then.
ruby sparks
Contributor
Leviticus, for example, also says that the male homosexual act is also punishable by death. In the NT, homosexuals will not get to heaven, apparently. Nor possibly those who masturbate.