Vote suppression -- now we have some evidence of the effects

[RavenSky]

It's impossible for a legal citizen not to have a legal ID and stupid not to keep it up to date.

Some more facts for WhichPhilosophy and others to ignore:

It wasn’t just poor African Americans who were disenfranchised. Most college IDs were not accepted under the law because they didn’t require signatures or have the state-mandated two-year expiration date—a criterion that made little sense at four-year schools. Only 3 of the 13 four-year schools in the University of Wisconsin system had IDs compliant with the new law.

That meant many schools, including UW-Madison, had to issue separate IDs for students to use only for voting, an expensive and confusing process for students and administrators.

Those stupid college students and administrators... why oh why couldn't they maintain a brand new UNNECESSARY form of ID to satisfy the GOP

 

[bilby]

36% of the US population has a passport.

It doesn't have to be the sole ID but one form of ID but an important one.

As little as 30 years ago, less than 10% of the US population had a passport. Until WWI, they were only used by diplomats and during wartime; and that status returned from 1921 to 1941. It has been illegal for a US Citizen to enter the country without a passport only since 1974.

You are still full of shit on this topic. You need to stop doubling down, admit your error, and accept that many people do not habitually carry or own official ID in free countries (or in the USA).

Your suppositions and assumptions are of no value here; You are wrong.

 

[Elixir]

You are still full of shit on this topic.

An unnecessarily limited descriptor...

 

[whichphilosophy]

It doesn't have to be the sole ID but one form of ID but an important one.

As little as 30 years ago, less than 10% of the US population had a passport. Until WWI, they were only used by diplomats and during wartime; and that status returned from 1921 to 1941. It has been illegal for a US Citizen to enter the country without a passport only since 1974.

You are still full of shit on this topic. You need to stop doubling down, admit your error, and accept that many people do not habitually carry or own official ID in free countries (or in the USA).

Your suppositions and assumptions are of no value here; You are wrong.

There are various forms of ID just like I have to produce in the UK if I go to a bank. It is reasonable to expect proof of who someone is.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You are still full of shit on this topic.

An unnecessarily limited descriptor...

He shouldn't hold back and say what he means.

- - - Updated - - -

Some more facts for WhichPhilosophy and others to ignore:

It wasn’t just poor African Americans who were disenfranchised. Most college IDs were not accepted under the law because they didn’t require signatures or have the state-mandated two-year expiration date—a criterion that made little sense at four-year schools. Only 3 of the 13 four-year schools in the University of Wisconsin system had IDs compliant with the new law.

That meant many schools, including UW-Madison, had to issue separate IDs for students to use only for voting, an expensive and confusing process for students and administrators.

Those stupid college students and administrators... why oh why couldn't they maintain a brand new UNNECESSARY form of ID to satisfy the GOP

The issue is not ID but inferred from your post, the failure to provide a sensible ID system

 

[RavenSky]

The issue is not ID but inferred from your post, the failure to provide a sensible ID system

well no fucking duh!!! That is exactly the entire point!!

Wherever the Republicans can control the process, they are implementing purposely skewed NOT "sensible" ID systems specifically designed to suppress the votes of Democrats/liberals. The easiest way for them to do that is to suppress the votes of poor people, minorities, college students and the very elderly - the majority of whom vote Democratic/liberal.

That is part of "voter suppression" and the entirety of what we are referring to when we are talking about the bullshit voter ID laws.

 

[bilby]

As little as 30 years ago, less than 10% of the US population had a passport. Until WWI, they were only used by diplomats and during wartime; and that status returned from 1921 to 1941. It has been illegal for a US Citizen to enter the country without a passport only since 1974.

You are still full of shit on this topic. You need to stop doubling down, admit your error, and accept that many people do not habitually carry or own official ID in free countries (or in the USA).

Your suppositions and assumptions are of no value here; You are wrong.

There are various forms of ID just like I have to produce in the UK if I go to a bank. It is reasonable to expect proof of who someone is.

UK banks issue their customers with cards, account books, deposit books and cheque books, all of which serve, when combined with the customer's signature and/or PIN (both of which the bank keeps on record) to identify the customer to the bank.

Such identity documents are not national, governmental nor police IDs; are not mandatory; are provided by the bank (usually at no charge); and the personal data that attaches to them is privileged information belonging to the customer and held in trust by the bank - it is not disclosed to police or government without a warrant.

It is reasonable for a bank to expect proof of a person's authority to withdraw funds from a given account; While you are needlessly moving this discussion to jurisdictions other than the US, I shall point out that some of the worlds most highly respected Swiss banks explicitly and famously do NOT identify their customers - any person who quotes the necessary account and security numbers is given access to an account entirely anonymously. The staff at such banks go to great pains NOT to discover customer identities.

You are still full of shit on this topic. You need to stop doubling down, admit your error, and accept that many people do not habitually carry or own official ID in free countries (or in the USA).

Your suppositions and assumptions are of no value here; You are wrong.

 

[Copernicus]

I think that the argument over national IDs is a red herring. Obviously, you have to have to be identifiable as a US citizen in order to vote in a US election. My problem is with voter registration. As a citizen, the right to vote ought to be automatic from the moment one comes of age. Why make adult citizens register at all? Almost everyone has tax ID, because the law requires people to pay taxes and show that they are qualified for government services. So it is hard to argue with the requirement that people generally have an ID, even though that makes them more vulnerable to government oppression in theory. What makes the voter ID requirement controversial for me is that it is quite often manipulated by partisan interests to suppress votes from people who are likely to vote against those interests. Some of these state requirements just use it to suppress in-person voting, because it is known that voters who support Democrats are more prone to voting in person than by mail. Also, gumming up the process by which people register to become new voters tends to harm Democratic candidates more than Republican ones because of the demographics. Younger voters and minority voters tend to vote for Democrats.

 

[laughing dog]

The issue is not voter registration. The issue is rigged requirements for ADDITIONAL identification on top of the voter registration.

There should be identification at no extra cost and exercised with good sense.

Well, there isn't. Hence the issue with the current voter id laws.

 

[lpetrich]

A National ID System: Big Brother's Solution to Illegal Immigration - pa237.pdf -- that was a common opinion on the Right when the Clinton Administration proposed a national ID card.

The Far-Right Has Rigged the American Electoral System -- documenting that rigging in gory detail.

 

[marc]

we don’t implement anti-terrorist preventative measures only solely on the basis there is proof that terrorist attacks are taking place.

But we know terrorism is a real threat. We don’t have evidence that voter fraud happens to any significant degree

https://ballotpedia.org/Dead_people_voting
Where we know of a few dead votes indicates the likelihood of more to be detected and prevented.

A site that lists results for searching ‘dead+people+voting+<state>’. I checked a bunch of their links, most were about elections where polls showed the candidates in a dead heat... nothing about dead people voting.

The following suggests the possibility of illegal immigrants illegally voting
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/illegal-alien-arrested-charged-voter-fraud

Excellent!!! You actually have an example! I’m impressed. Now, can you build on this to have enough examples that it is a significant issue? Or at least enough so I can’t count them on one hand?

Also
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...band-from-deportation/?utm_term=.160562180ba6

The woman’s husband came to the country illegally. The article said she voted for trump, nothing about her husband voting. So no illegal voting shown here.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/...gal-immigration-voters-registration-elections

Some ‘expert’ on Fox News? Really? Do I need to say anything else?

https://fairus.org/issue/societal-impact/noncitizens-voting-violations-and-us-elections

Article uses as its source right-wing conspiracy group Virginia Voters alliance. No actual evidence

1.8 million people are still on the electoral list. It takes a long time to remove them.
I doubt if millions did, but a few dead people did cast votes

Again, like I asked, can we have actual evidence instead of assertions. Over a million deceased still listed on voting rolls.. can you show evidence even ONE of those names has been used illegally? Let alone enough to make a difference.

So to plug these leaks

You found a drop of water while insinuating a major flood. And since the one example you did find was arrested, that leak has been taken care of.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

36% of the US population has a passport.

It doesn't have to be the sole ID but one form of ID but an important one.

Tell that to the bank teller.

She wouldn't take my wife's non-driver ID (legitimately--it had no expiration date and the policy was ID without an expiration date was unacceptable.) Ok, passport. "Please just bring your driver's license". It took getting a supervisor involved and there was still a lot of grumbling about it. (Passports don't have addresses.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are various forms of ID just like I have to produce in the UK if I go to a bank. It is reasonable to expect proof of who someone is.

The last time I needed ID in a bank was 5 years ago. I had forgotten my bank card while out of town and so I used my driver's license to do a withdrawal. The only place I normally use ID is travel (TSA, immigration), Costco (the membership card has a photo on it so I will call it ID) and medical--these days doctors are pretty strict about wanting ID if you're using insurance. (The dentist, though, no insurance, I've never provided ID. My wife's file is in her social name, not her legal name.) For the bank I provide the card they sent me--no photo so I wouldn't call it ID, and the only reason I ever go in there anyway is we both have self-employment income and thus have to make actual deposits.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is reasonable for a bank to expect proof of a person's authority to withdraw funds from a given account; While you are needlessly moving this discussion to jurisdictions other than the US, I shall point out that some of the worlds most highly respected Swiss banks explicitly and famously do NOT identify their customers - any person who quotes the necessary account and security numbers is given access to an account entirely anonymously. The staff at such banks go to great pains NOT to discover customer identities.

I think you're out of date here--a Swiss banker got caught drumming up business in the US and did a lot of talking about how it worked to cut his sentence. My understanding is that the government couldn't stand the hot water that caused and the anonymous Swiss accounts are gone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think that the argument over national IDs is a red herring. Obviously, you have to have to be identifiable as a US citizen in order to vote in a US election. My problem is with voter registration. As a citizen, the right to vote ought to be automatic from the moment one comes of age. Why make adult citizens register at all? Almost everyone has tax ID, because the law requires people to pay taxes and show that they are qualified for government services. So it is hard to argue with the requirement that people generally have an ID, even though that makes them more vulnerable to government oppression in theory. What makes the voter ID requirement controversial for me is that it is quite often manipulated by partisan interests to suppress votes from people who are likely to vote against those interests. Some of these state requirements just use it to suppress in-person voting, because it is known that voters who support Democrats are more prone to voting in person than by mail. Also, gumming up the process by which people register to become new voters tends to harm Democratic candidates more than Republican ones because of the demographics. Younger voters and minority voters tend to vote for Democrats.

You can't use tax IDs for voting. Tax IDs prove that you're eligible to vote somewhere, they provide no proof of where. (While there is an address in the government records there's no obligation to keep it current. They simply update it when they get a new filing from you.) Since we have no required registration of an address (ID cards have addresses but they are not required and except for things that require proof of location you could use a passport card--which has no address) you need to prove where you are allowed to vote. (And, yes, this is important--otherwise you would have people where the office(s) they cared about were unopposed and vote in the next district over.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A site that lists results for searching ‘dead+people+voting+<state>’. I checked a bunch of their links, most were about elections where polls showed the candidates in a dead heat... nothing about dead people voting.

Actually, I'm sure there are some dead people "voting". The ID efforts aren't going to do squat about it, though, as the problem lies with absentee ballots.

 

[bilby]

It is reasonable for a bank to expect proof of a person's authority to withdraw funds from a given account; While you are needlessly moving this discussion to jurisdictions other than the US, I shall point out that some of the worlds most highly respected Swiss banks explicitly and famously do NOT identify their customers - any person who quotes the necessary account and security numbers is given access to an account entirely anonymously. The staff at such banks go to great pains NOT to discover customer identities.

I think you're out of date here--a Swiss banker got caught drumming up business in the US and did a lot of talking about how it worked to cut his sentence. My understanding is that the government couldn't stand the hot water that caused and the anonymous Swiss accounts are gone.

Switzerland and the US have various agreements that make access to anonymous accounts by US Citizens effectively impossible; But such accounts are still available to people with non-OECD citizenship - the Indian government recently got told where to go when trying to get similar disclosure from the Swiss as is enjoyed by Uncle Sam.

Modern numbered bank accounts are not fully "anonymous", but they do serve to provide the account holder with some degree of protection from scrutiny while minimizing the exposure of the account holder's name in public settings. For example, the Swiss banking system (in contrast to banks in other countries) will not reveal information about an account (whether "numbered" or not) to any governmental agency unless proof of deliberate fraud is established, not merely the non-reporting of assets in order to avoid taxation.

- Wikipedia

Swiss bankers are still extremely discrete, but this discretion isn't cheap - you will need at least CHF 1million (USD 1.02M) to open an account, and the fees are astronomical. Still, if you are a Colombian drug baron with billions of $US to stash somewhere discreet, there are people in Zurich who will help you out with the utmost discretion - they will only ask you what Swiss law demands that they ask, and that ain't much, particularly if you claim not to be a US citizen, and thereby provide plausible deniability.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Some more facts for WhichPhilosophy and others to ignore:

It wasn’t just poor African Americans who were disenfranchised. Most college IDs were not accepted under the law because they didn’t require signatures or have the state-mandated two-year expiration date—a criterion that made little sense at four-year schools. Only 3 of the 13 four-year schools in the University of Wisconsin system had IDs compliant with the new law.

That meant many schools, including UW-Madison, had to issue separate IDs for students to use only for voting, an expensive and confusing process for students and administrators.

Those stupid college students and administrators... why oh why couldn't they maintain a brand new UNNECESSARY form of ID to satisfy the GOP

I never said it was significant. Given the security risks the USA faces I would have thought a proper system would have been established years ago.

 

[whichphilosophy]

But we know terrorism is a real threat. We don’t have evidence that voter fraud happens to any significant degree

https://ballotpedia.org/Dead_people_voting
Where we know of a few dead votes indicates the likelihood of more to be detected and prevented.

A site that lists results for searching ‘dead+people+voting+<state>’. I checked a bunch of their links, most were about elections where polls showed the candidates in a dead heat... nothing about dead people voting.

The following suggests the possibility of illegal immigrants illegally voting
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/illegal-alien-arrested-charged-voter-fraud

Excellent!!! You actually have an example! I’m impressed. Now, can you build on this to have enough examples that it is a significant issue? Or at least enough so I can’t count them on one hand?

Also
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...band-from-deportation/?utm_term=.160562180ba6

The woman’s husband came to the country illegally. The article said she voted for trump, nothing about her husband voting. So no illegal voting shown here.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/...gal-immigration-voters-registration-elections

Some ‘expert’ on Fox News? Really? Do I need to say anything else?

https://fairus.org/issue/societal-impact/noncitizens-voting-violations-and-us-elections

Article uses as its source right-wing conspiracy group Virginia Voters alliance. No actual evidence

1.8 million people are still on the electoral list. It takes a long time to remove them.
I doubt if millions did, but a few dead people did cast votes

Again, like I asked, can we have actual evidence instead of assertions. Over a million deceased still listed on voting rolls.. can you show evidence even ONE of those names has been used illegally? Let alone enough to make a difference.

So to plug these leaks

You found a drop of water while insinuating a major flood. And since the one example you did find was arrested, that leak has been taken care of.

For a Dutch person, a leak indicates the Dam could break. Actually I meant to delete Fox (hearsay) and Fairus (too distorted). However US media tends to be distorted.

Do you need evidence something was used illegally when removing the possibility of it happening?

A threat has to exist even if it were one or two that were discovered (Ballotopedia

Some recent examples of elections in which actual fraudulent votes were cast on behalf of dead people include a 2005 state senate election in Tennessee that was decided by fewer than 20 votes; in this case, a post-election verification process established that two fraudulent votes were cast on behalf of dead people. Three election workers were indicted, and the results of the election were voided. The mayoral election in Miami in 1997 was nullified by a judge because of widespread fraud, including a number of established cases of fraudulent votes cast in the name of dead people. Election inspectors looking at the 1982 gubernatorial election in Illinois estimated that as many as 1 in 10 ballots cast during the election were fraudulent, including votes by the dead.[1]

 

[bilby]

Some more facts for WhichPhilosophy and others to ignore:



Those stupid college students and administrators... why oh why couldn't they maintain a brand new UNNECESSARY form of ID to satisfy the GOP

I never said it was significant. Given the security risks the USA faces I would have thought a proper system would have been established years ago.

The USA since the end of the Cold War faces fewer security risks than just about any society in the history of humankind.

That people like you allow yourselves to be terrified by the few remaining threats to the point where you are allowing people to manipulate you through your groundless fears - fears that were invented for the sole purpose of that manipulation - is truly sad.

But while you refuse to question authority, you can be kept fearful; and that's exactly what the powerful people want from you. After all, they don't want to have to fight their own battles - they need useful idiots to fight for them.