*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[steve_bank]

Noah was plagiarized from the earlier Gilgamesh epic.

Then everywhere else that depicts a boat in an ancient flood, has also plagarised poor Gigamesh who is, the only one that depicts the big floating cube box - a somewhat unconventiional design that can somehow stabilize itself steady in a big flood with all the creatures aboard. The "so-called" plagarists avoided that part.

Gilgamesh seems to be the plagariser here perhaps.

There ia thread I strted not too far back on a documentary that found what appears to what was referenced as the Garden Of Eden. Rather than get into it watch the video. The Genesis Garden Of Eden also has a predecessor.

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?17968-The-Garden-Of-Eden

What was discussed was the fact that Jews in Babylon were not really captives as we would imagine with the word. They did well economically and Hebrew scribes would have been multi language able to read all mythology and religion that existed at the time. They were immersed in the culture. Myths would be floating around.

The construction of Noah given the known historical time line makes perfect sense given the culture Hebrews were in. Hebrew scribes were creating a narrative tailored to Hebrews. All cultures do it. We have our American cultural narrative, the Chinese theirs.

Jewish conservatives in Israel talk the narrative god gave Jews Israel, it is theirs by divine right. That is Netanyahu's narrative. He is a fundamentalist.

The idea that Gilgamesh was copied from Noah has been used before on the forum. There still is no evidence of a global flood except if you are a Christian fringe element writing books for Christians..

 

[Sarpedon]

In this context "God sits above the Compass of the Earth" compass probably means neither a direction finding device nor a measuring device, but instead "boundary" as in "encompass." The emphasis on his being not of the earth.

I agree that the bible does claim the earth is flat. However, not this particular verse.

 

[Keith&Co.]

In this context "God sits above the Compass of the Earth" compass probably means neither a direction finding device nor a measuring device, but instead "boundary" as in "encompass." The emphasis on his being not of the earth.

I agree that the bible does claim the earth is flat. However, not this particular verse.

:SHOCK: But i was TOLD that by a believer who insisted that his belief meant his god-guy granted him godly discernment in such matters. And the compass was used to draw the circle that represents Globe-Earth as scene (his word) from God's perspective.

Which is a really, really odd apology, you know? The bibke describes Earth as a flat circle because that is what it looks like in the Apollo pictures. I mean, nowheree else is something's shape given in terms of the side facing the viewer. No one goes to Giza to see the Great Triangles. No one goes downtown to gaze up at the tall parallelograms. Saturn's rings don't become Saturn's Lines when they approach edge-on to the observatory.

Hell, even Flat Earthers know the other planrts are spheres, just not Earth, because reasons.

 

[steve_bank]

https://www.openbible.info/topics/four_corners
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 101 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...

According to the bible the Earth has four corners, it must be flat.

But hey, just maybe it is a colloquial expression not literal? Then the flood and Moses in the desert for 40 years are realy allegories?

 

[bilby]

https://www.openbible.info/topics/four_corners
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 101 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...

According to the bible the Earth has four corners, it must be flat.

But hey, just maybe it is a colloquial expression not literal? Then the flood and Moses in the desert for 40 years are realy allegories?

To be fair, it needn't be flat; Sure a plane quadrilateral is flat and has four corners; But a tetrahedron has four corners and is a three dimensional object.

I suspect we might have noticed if the Earth were tetrahedral though.

 

[Keith&Co.]

https://www.openbible.info/topics/four_corners
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 101 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...

According to the bible the Earth has four corners, it must be flat.

But hey, just maybe it is a colloquial expression not literal? Then the flood and Moses in the desert for 40 years are realy allegories?

Well, if you want to insist that the authors believed in a Flat Earth, you need to discount dreams and visions. But not metaphors or similes...comparing similar things only works if they are similar. And allegories only work if the reader can follow the symbolism.

But for me, all the categories work for the claim that the Books alaways describes the Earth in flat terms. A mountain where Jesus can see every nation on Earth, a dream of a tree so tall you can climb it and see every nation, both require a flatness at odds with thecurrent scientific consensus.

Which means even if there is an important message in The Books, how can you be sure to filter out yhe ignorance, first?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Aristotle gave evidence of a round earth in the fourth century BC, but the concept traveled slowly. We know that in Columbus' time, the flat earthers were still around in sizeable numbers. Who but a total inerrantist would dispute that the Bible writers, as a generality, were flat-earthers? The entire book shows that it is bound by the state of reality claims that existed at 100 CE and previously -- no germ theory, no atomic theory, no coherent idea of the size, constituency, and origins of the universe. Full of hairy superstitions about menstruation, talking animals, demon possession -- in many ways, the Preschool of Mankind. In any case, the Bible should be questioned on its moral grounds just as much as its antiquated descriptions of nature. I refuse to take guidance from a book that doesn't condemn genocide, but instead has its god command it; doesn't condemn slavery, but instead has its god allow it in many forms ('he' also spells out the acceptable way to beat your slaves to death); institutes a death penalty for new brides with broken hymens....not enough room here, is there?

 

[Sarpedon]

It amazes me that some people insist on reading a particular bible translation from centuries ago, and then don't bother to inform themselves about how the usage of words has changed over time.

 

[steve_bank]

It amazes me that some people insist on reading a particular bible translation from centuries ago, and then don't bother to inform themselves about how the usage of words has changed over time.

Some get off on usage of old English for some reason.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It amazes me that some people insist on reading a particular bible translation from centuries ago, and then don't bother to inform themselves about how the usage of words has changed over time.

Some get off on usage of old English for some reason.

Thou speakest sooth.

 

[skepticalbip]

It amazes me that some people insist on reading a particular bible translation from centuries ago, and then don't bother to inform themselves about how the usage of words has changed over time.

Some get off on usage of old English for some reason.

That reason is that it is the language used by God, Moses, Jesus, etc. It is better to read what they actually said instead of some later translation.

 

[bilby]

It amazes me that some people insist on reading a particular bible translation from centuries ago, and then don't bother to inform themselves about how the usage of words has changed over time.

Some get off on usage of old English for some reason.

The King James Bible was written in Early Modern English, and all subsequent Bible versions are in Early Modern or Modern English.

Old English is what Chaucer wrote. It's practically unintelligible to a speaker of Modern English.

Between Old and Modern English there was Middle English, which shares enough common ground to be understandable with difficulty.

Here's Psalm 23 in Modern, Early Modern, Middle, and Old English:-



And that only gets us half way back to Jesus's time. Of course, prior to about 800, there wasn't any such language as 'English'; The people of what is now England spoke a mixture of Latin and Old Norse, which became Old English. Before that they spoke a mixture of Brithonic and Latin, with more of the latter the further into the Roman period you advance. Before the Romans, it was Brithonic alone.

So in 1CE, the people of what is now England spoke Brithonic.

What they spoke in ~4000BCE is (to the best of my limited understanding) not known. Perhaps there's a paeleolinguist on the boards who can tell us (and correct any errors in my post)?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The bible says the world is round .. suggestions could be made for either sperical or flat.

Good luck putting a half-sphere firmament on a sphere to separate the water from it.

 

[Sarpedon]

Technically, Chaucer is middle english. Comprehensible to the patient and well read, but slow and difficult.

 

[1ICrying]

, a) we can't even comprehend anything other above and beyond sand (unless we believe)

We cannot comprehend unless we believe?
Fuck you and the arrogant condescension you rode in on. I can comorhend a god, gods, all sorts of immortal POV's and divine bullshit. I just don't accept your fairy tales as describing tyhe reality we share.
You cannot simultaneously claim
that you know your god WANTS us all in his heaven because you know he loves us,
and
that he may have reasons to just let us languish in ignorance he could easily dispel, and which he has dispelled for others before in y,our favorite book.

You're right - that was a pretty lame statement. I take it back. You don't have to believe in God or a god to comprehend gods or a God.

Why doesn't God just quickly dispel all the ignorance for everyone? I don't know that either. Maybe he's working on it. He said - blessed are those who believe without seeing. Maybe someday we will all see and the choice will be more obvious.

Thank you.

1I

 

[1ICrying]

Creating a sentient entity, even one that's not as clever as you are, in no way gives you the moral right to destroy it as you see fit.

If you disagree, try using that defence in court after you murder your two year old - "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I fully admit to drowning little Sammy, but in my defence, it was I who created him; He was far less wise than me; And he ignored my instructions on how he was to behave. It is therefore clear that you must acquit".

Hint: If you don't like prison food, you might want to choose to do this in a jurisdiction with the death penalty. Because you won't be eating anything else for the rest of your life.

The God you describe is a genocidal monster who makes Pol Pot look like an amateur; And the argument you use to defend his purported actions, and the metaphor you use in an attempt to justify such actions, don't bear a moment's scrutiny.

This hideous attempt at a justification for mass murder might have impressed people at a time when owning other people as property was considered a routine and unremarkable part of life; But nobody today can claim that the creator of a sentient life has the right to kill that sentience on a whim, without revealing that their moral compass is not just broken, but twisted beyond recognition.

This is your morality on religion - twisted evil shit that lets you celebrate mass murder on the grounds that owning people is perfectly acceptable, as long as you are a wise and well informed owner who knows better than his victims.

Fuck that.

Hi Bilby, I agree with your analogy, as it applies to humans, but i think that in the one special case when we are talking about the God of all Gods, the one who created everything, that He(she/it) really does reserve the right to do as He pleases. We cannot logically sit back and criticize the entity that put every thought and word and concept into our brains. He said I am what I am. He is beyond good and evil. So no, I don't agree with you that he is broken and twisted. I trust that he is dispensing perfect justice with his every move. This does not mean that he endorses every sick maneuver made by us humans or evil spirits that our free will affords - He is against it to the degree that he is - which, being God, is the perfect degree. To say that your opinion is greater/wiser than his is just your foolish human pride running rampant.

Gracias,

1I

 

[1ICrying]

This seems a little unstable. You don't like God being described as an asshole, but you will explain him by comparison to capricious little child having a tantrum.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
I absolutely could not understand the idea of Heaven and Hell when I believed they existed. Seriously, I could not grasp how any actual Christain could be happy in paradise as long as they knew even one person suffered eternal torment in Hell. Gotta figure that at some point, even Hitler might begin to think that maybe some of what he'd done wasn't worth what he was going through right now. And he wasn't the worst. I was told that far less evil people were hell-bent because they worshiped the right god, but in the wrong way.
So anyone who wasn't a complete selfish bastard would have to be sad, rather than feeling this 'through the roof' happiness and gratitude.
But, hey, YOU are sure you're saved, so that's what you care about, right?

For those who have decided to accept the fate of being smashed back to the sand (death), so be it. You don't seem to care.

And keep telling yourself that, too. I suppose it makes it easier, to think that we've made a positive effort to reject a god we think actually exists. Then it's not unjust or even sad that we're in Hell, it's our choice.

Just ignore people telling you their actual reasons for disbelief. The actual failure of your arguments, your scriptures, your pretense at evidence or logic. Brush your hands clean of any sense of failure, there.

I scarcely care,

Uh huh...

but I'm giving it a feint go,

You're bluffing? Or did you mean faint?

and God, being so awesome, is open to let more in. And, as pointed out, it doesn't even matter how much of a lowlife you/we/i are or have been, God just requires this one little thing. That you believe that his son died on the cross and rose again.

Why?
Seriously, why?
What's the deal with needing to be believed before he'll save us?

My kids have had trouble with the law for rather childish stuff. I came to their aid. I did not demand that they state a belief in my sea-story about that time I had an inflatable sheep.
They've all been to the emergency room. I took them. I did not require a signed statement accepting my story about performing a countdown wearing shower shoes, a towel and shampoo suds.

If your god is awesome, and loving, why does he only rescue conditionally?

We'll keep reminding you until we are blue in the face, because that is the new requirement, and being nice, we want you to enjoy the big party also.

Except you hardly care? Uh huh...
This is about you. YOU are directed to proselytize, so YOU can get to Heaven. Don't pretend it's about your feelings for us.
You already said you don't have any.

In the end though, we're not going to mourn those who didn't make it, anymore than we mourn the sperm who didn't make it to the egg.

See, I could never understand that attitude for someone washed in the blood of an omnibenevolent being...

It seems that God is revealing more to us as time goes - proving more of what the Bible says is true.

Except only if you already believe.

Maybe we are not yet at the Ark part. But maybe that 'rock formation' is the Ark. Maybe not. Stay tuned as science and archaeology reveal more.

Not more. "Any." Any is the word you're looking for, there.
We are waiting for various sciences, including archaeology, to provide any reason to think a deity must be involved.
Or even a decent argument from the believers. Poor math and presupposition are not working.

In the meantime, as the Red Letter Christians do, you can believe what Jesus said

You never said why we would do that, though.

Bottom line - I'll always believe. Most of you sceptics here probably never will, and we'll just have to wait and see how the cookie does in fact crumble. I can tell you that I feel a lot wiser being on the side that even has a chance.

But you don't really know that you even have a chance. You drew your ticket, then constructed the odds to favor that one.

God's book tells outrageous stories AND warns people not to follow false prophets.
What if the whole point of any religion is to see if people are gullible enough to fall for it? Maybe atheists and the more cynical agnostics are the only ones who will make it through this without accepting total bullshit as facts.

We are all on the search for happiness in this world, and as a Christian I can tell you that I am at the top end of ecstatic bliss,

And how do you measure bliss? How do you measure my bliss? How can you be sure your self-congratulatory back-patting for belief is superior to my self-congratulatory back-patting for skepticism?

You're just making shit up and bragging about it. Not terribly useful at convincing others of your thesis.

What have you aligned yourself with? "Reality, facts and death. But a noble death. A death, and life, where you can hang my head high knowing that you did not believe in any fairy tales. Still, you are living a life where you believe that death awaits. Those children and friends that you love, the ones (who half are secretly Christian by the way) who love you. It won't matter a jot after your last breath.

Yeah, argument from consequences isn't a lot better than your other fallacies.
Even if I found my current state of affairs disagreeable, that does not provide evidence any other POV is accurate.

So, while you're alive, you should be attempting every thing that you can do get past the death part. Christianity is the WAY. You just need to Believe that part above about Jesus. Not a thing more. Don't have to go to church, don't have to be a great person, just one little simple thing. But you can't, because you're just too smart. Do you see how you really aren't that smart at all?

And here, you can fuck right off yet again. This is one of those bad arguments that are not convincing. I'm not an atheist to prove how smart I am, I am an atheist because as near as I can honestly tell, there are no gods. None. Everyone who tells me 'all you gotta do is believe in allah (for a given value of allah)' are not compelling.

Hi Keith. Way to break it down. I don't know if I have the skills yet to inject the comments in like you do, so please bare with me.

The difference between the child (in the analogy) and asshole, is that asshole is your human judgement of God. As mentioned before, I think in the one case where we are dealing with an all mighty God - that it is unwise from our human standpoint to think that we can judge that God, especially talking down to that God. You can do it as you have but it isn't going to get you very far. In my analogy, God may be like a wild child, but that's his prerogative - not one I or you, lesser beings, can judge.

Re: eternal torment in hell - I don't believe that Jesus once talks about hell, or that he is going to throw people into it. I do believe that there will be death. If there is a hell, I'm sure God will only allow those who truly deserve to be there, to be there.

Re: what's the deal of needing to believe before he'll save us. I don't know anything 100%, but I believe the story goes a little like this (in a nutshell): We were created (and were in paradise), we screwed up (not being perfect)(tempted/tricked by evil; free will); we all became susceptible to death.

BUT, God, in his mercy, sent his Son, etc, etc., to save us. All that believe in him will be saved from death, and have eternal life.

Here's where you say - but why doesn't he just save everyone? Well, I can't know for certain, but as I've been trying to say - from a God's point of view - the 'death' of a bunch of humans might not be a big deal. Ashes to ashes; dust to dust. Maybe God really does cry at night for those who don't make it, I don't know. Apparently though, he knows the future and he's okay with it. He said 'let the dead bury the dead'. I guess he's too busy with the good stuff to cry over the bad stuff. Apparently he loves us all, but because we have free will, he can't force us to love him back, or to accept his sacrifice.

Was this sacrifice obvious enough? Again, if it was God's will, then we have to say yes - it is enough for Him. He knew that we wouldn't all bow down to him and love him back (for what he is), but he knew that some would and that was enough.

I'd like to recap quickly just how obvious this truth is: The entire first half of the Bible is chuck full of prophecies (yes, prophecies, get over it) that talk about a messiah to come. They describe many of the things that this Messiah is going to do and say and be. The Messiah arrives and fulfills all of the prophecies, including doing miracles and claiming to be the very son of God (not an easy feat to get away with if you were indeed lying). If you or I tried to do such a feat, it would probably take a day, an hour, or less, that people said - ya right. Well, it's 2000 years later and one third of the population still believes that this Messiah, Jesus, is in fact the Messiah that was prophesied about.

For those of you who think that Jesus (and his evil buddies) just went through the list and simply did everything that was prophesied, without being the true Messiah, then I think that you are foolish. How and Why could a person who did nothing more than preach about love and truth and justice, go and pull a big prank/lie? Why did he andall those around him, the disciples, go to their deaths if they knew it was just a big lie? And if Jesus was not the Messiah, than who are all those prophecies talking about? Is there a donkey riding guy about to be crucified in our future?

So that's the basis of why I believe. For you guys, who are arguing that for instance, because the Bible describes the earth as a circle, instead of a sphere, that you just can't believe any of it - I say, give your head a shake. Get on board while you can.

As for me. I do care about you (humans out there). Does the cop who is trying to talk the jumper down off the ledge care whether or not he jumps or not? Yes, he does. BUT, if he fails, he cannot let that failure stop him from regrouping and trying to save the next guy. Does the marriage councillor break down and cry along with the people he is trying to help? Partially yes - but not 100% That is part of the meaning behind my online name - 1ICrying. I'll cry with one eye, but not with both. How about you?


I am doing my best to convince others of my thesis - that the Bible is truth. I know that I am not the best at it; there are millions that are ahead of me in that regard.

Why does he only rescue conditionally? Well, I think that as far as God's go, he is not really asking all that much. He put his very own son through hell for our benefit, and is basically just asking us to recognize/digest this fact. He is not asking us to do anything more - basically just requires a simple thank you.

Maybe atheists and the more cynical agnostics are the only ones who will make it through this without accepting total bullshit as facts. Maybe. Is that what you are betting/hoping on? It's not bad. I do believe that God knows exactly where we are all at as far as knowledge, belief, desire, sincerity go, and that he will reward us all fairly. Maybe that's why he has me here trying to convince you guys to have a change of heart. Maybe he is going to reveal more and more until it's obvious. It's not over until it's over, and we don't know what the judgement will be. You do you, and I will continue to do what I believe is the right thing to do.

Thank you again for considering my viewpoints, as I do yours,

1I

 

[1ICrying]

This seems a little unstable. You don't like God being described as an asshole, but you will explain him by comparison to capricious little child having a tantrum.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
I absolutely could not understand the idea of Heaven and Hell when I believed they existed. Seriously, I could not grasp how any actual Christain could be happy in paradise as long as they knew even one person suffered eternal torment in Hell. Gotta figure that at some point, even Hitler might begin to think that maybe some of what he'd done wasn't worth what he was going through right now. And he wasn't the worst. I was told that far less evil people were hell-bent because they worshiped the right god, but in the wrong way.
So anyone who wasn't a complete selfish bastard would have to be sad, rather than feeling this 'through the roof' happiness and gratitude.
But, hey, YOU are sure you're saved, so that's what you care about, right?

For those who have decided to accept the fate of being smashed back to the sand (death), so be it. You don't seem to care.

And keep telling yourself that, too. I suppose it makes it easier, to think that we've made a positive effort to reject a god we think actually exists. Then it's not unjust or even sad that we're in Hell, it's our choice.

Just ignore people telling you their actual reasons for disbelief. The actual failure of your arguments, your scriptures, your pretense at evidence or logic. Brush your hands clean of any sense of failure, there.

I scarcely care,

Uh huh...

but I'm giving it a feint go,

You're bluffing? Or did you mean faint?

and God, being so awesome, is open to let more in. And, as pointed out, it doesn't even matter how much of a lowlife you/we/i are or have been, God just requires this one little thing. That you believe that his son died on the cross and rose again.

Why?
Seriously, why?
What's the deal with needing to be believed before he'll save us?

My kids have had trouble with the law for rather childish stuff. I came to their aid. I did not demand that they state a belief in my sea-story about that time I had an inflatable sheep.
They've all been to the emergency room. I took them. I did not require a signed statement accepting my story about performing a countdown wearing shower shoes, a towel and shampoo suds.

If your god is awesome, and loving, why does he only rescue conditionally?

We'll keep reminding you until we are blue in the face, because that is the new requirement, and being nice, we want you to enjoy the big party also.

Except you hardly care? Uh huh...
This is about you. YOU are directed to proselytize, so YOU can get to Heaven. Don't pretend it's about your feelings for us.
You already said you don't have any.

In the end though, we're not going to mourn those who didn't make it, anymore than we mourn the sperm who didn't make it to the egg.

See, I could never understand that attitude for someone washed in the blood of an omnibenevolent being...

It seems that God is revealing more to us as time goes - proving more of what the Bible says is true.

Except only if you already believe.

Maybe we are not yet at the Ark part. But maybe that 'rock formation' is the Ark. Maybe not. Stay tuned as science and archaeology reveal more.

Not more. "Any." Any is the word you're looking for, there.
We are waiting for various sciences, including archaeology, to provide any reason to think a deity must be involved.
Or even a decent argument from the believers. Poor math and presupposition are not working.

In the meantime, as the Red Letter Christians do, you can believe what Jesus said

You never said why we would do that, though.

Bottom line - I'll always believe. Most of you sceptics here probably never will, and we'll just have to wait and see how the cookie does in fact crumble. I can tell you that I feel a lot wiser being on the side that even has a chance.

But you don't really know that you even have a chance. You drew your ticket, then constructed the odds to favor that one.

God's book tells outrageous stories AND warns people not to follow false prophets.
What if the whole point of any religion is to see if people are gullible enough to fall for it? Maybe atheists and the more cynical agnostics are the only ones who will make it through this without accepting total bullshit as facts.

We are all on the search for happiness in this world, and as a Christian I can tell you that I am at the top end of ecstatic bliss,

And how do you measure bliss? How do you measure my bliss? How can you be sure your self-congratulatory back-patting for belief is superior to my self-congratulatory back-patting for skepticism?

You're just making shit up and bragging about it. Not terribly useful at convincing others of your thesis.

What have you aligned yourself with? "Reality, facts and death. But a noble death. A death, and life, where you can hang my head high knowing that you did not believe in any fairy tales. Still, you are living a life where you believe that death awaits. Those children and friends that you love, the ones (who half are secretly Christian by the way) who love you. It won't matter a jot after your last breath.

Yeah, argument from consequences isn't a lot better than your other fallacies.
Even if I found my current state of affairs disagreeable, that does not provide evidence any other POV is accurate.

So, while you're alive, you should be attempting every thing that you can do get past the death part. Christianity is the WAY. You just need to Believe that part above about Jesus. Not a thing more. Don't have to go to church, don't have to be a great person, just one little simple thing. But you can't, because you're just too smart. Do you see how you really aren't that smart at all?

And here, you can fuck right off yet again. This is one of those bad arguments that are not convincing. I'm not an atheist to prove how smart I am, I am an atheist because as near as I can honestly tell, there are no gods. None. Everyone who tells me 'all you gotta do is believe in allah (for a given value of allah)' are not compelling.

Hey Gang,

Here are my thoughts after a quick read through of the latest:

1) As to why God doesn't reveal himself more evidently - so as say, to provide less death and such. As a human, we can't fully know the mind of God, but we can assume that, being God, and us being only human, his wants and needs out weigh ours. Imagine a child building sand castles, including little sand people, out of the sand, and then later smashing them into dust. From the point of the sand (it's okay Rhea, I know Sand has no point of view), a) we can't even comprehend anything other above and beyond sand (unless we believe) and b) it may be the end of us, but to the happiness of the little child (God in this analogy), the reaction of the sand is ultimately not important. What is amazing is that God has decided to save any of us. And to those who are saved, knowing that is surely only by this graciousness, our love and happiness and appreciation will be, and is, through the roof.

For those who have decided to accept the fate of being smashed back to the sand (death), so be it. You don't seem to care. I scarcely care, but I'm giving it a feint go, and God, being so awesome, is open to let more in. And, as pointed out, it doesn't even matter how much of a lowlife you/we/i are or have been, God just requires this one little thing. That you believe that his son died on the cross and rose again.

John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

We'll keep reminding you until we are blue in the face, because that is the new requirement, and being nice, we want you to enjoy the big party also. In the end though, we're not going to mourn those who didn't make it, anymore than we mourn the sperm who didn't make it to the egg.

It seems that God is revealing more to us as time goes - proving more of what the Bible says is true. Maybe we are not yet at the Ark part. But maybe that 'rock formation' is the Ark. Maybe not. Stay tuned as science and archaeology reveal more.

In the meantime, as the Red Letter Christians do, you can believe what Jesus said and not worry so much about the rest. As mentioned before, God himself has let it slip out of the bag that the Bible may have been tampered with - so we (Christians) don't necessarily have to view the Bible as fully infallible. We also have see that some of the stories may be more symbolic in nature. Was there a real Garden of Eden with the snake and all that. Maybe. Or maybe God chose to include that story in the Bible for other purposes - such as to illustrate a greater truth.

Bottom line - I'll always believe. Most of you sceptics here probably never will, and we'll just have to wait and see how the cookie does in fact crumble. I can tell you that I feel a lot wiser being on the side that even has a chance.

We are all on the search for happiness in this world, and as a Christian I can tell you that I am at the top end of ecstatic bliss, knowing and believing that the Kingdom of Heaven awaits, in all it's glorious perfection. I believe, therefore I feel it, and am truly happy, now, and having aligned myself with the most powerful God in this universe, that of the Bible, I feel invincible, and full of endless potential, now.

What have you aligned yourself with? "Reality, facts and death. But a noble death. A death, and life, where you can hang my head high knowing that you did not believe in any fairy tales. Still, you are living a life where you believe that death awaits. Those children and friends that you love, the ones (who half are secretly Christian by the way) who love you. It won't matter a jot after your last breath.

So, while you're alive, you should be attempting every thing that you can do get past the death part. Christianity is the WAY. You just need to Believe that part above about Jesus. Not a thing more. Don't have to go to church, don't have to be a great person, just one little simple thing. But you can't, because you're just too smart. Do you see how you really aren't that smart at all?

You're welcome.

1I

Is that designed to DISsuade people from Christianity? Because it looks more like a message of "You lowlifes are too stupid to have any of what I got" than anything else.

Evangelical Christianity. It's not only a religion of "me, me, me!" It's also a religion of "fuck you, fuck you, fuck you!"

You might not be Catholic but just believe this anyway if it makes you feel good, and hope for a front row seat: "That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell." (Thomas Aquinas)

Hi Abaddon - It seems like it's okay for you to call me an asshole and idiot to believe what I believe, but the second I stand up for my belief, you cry 'poor me'.

I'm not saying 'fuck you'. I'm just saying that you're wrong. I also don't believe that you'll be going to hell - just death, as you're already apparently okay with. If not - what is your great plan to escape it. I have my belief in Jesus. I'm done. And now, as mentioned, I will take some time to hopefully snatch people like you from the abyss. Even just one in my lifetime would be amazing.

Not convinced yet? I know. But we're not done. As Led Zep says, there's still time to change the road you're on.

I have recently come to understand that no Christian has come to believe without the grace of God - it is not something we earn - it is given. Ill pray for you tonight - (all here on TFT.org) that God has mercy on your souls and sends you belief and salvation.

Peace

1I

 

[bilby]

Creating a sentient entity, even one that's not as clever as you are, in no way gives you the moral right to destroy it as you see fit.

If you disagree, try using that defence in court after you murder your two year old - "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I fully admit to drowning little Sammy, but in my defence, it was I who created him; He was far less wise than me; And he ignored my instructions on how he was to behave. It is therefore clear that you must acquit".

Hint: If you don't like prison food, you might want to choose to do this in a jurisdiction with the death penalty. Because you won't be eating anything else for the rest of your life.

The God you describe is a genocidal monster who makes Pol Pot look like an amateur; And the argument you use to defend his purported actions, and the metaphor you use in an attempt to justify such actions, don't bear a moment's scrutiny.

This hideous attempt at a justification for mass murder might have impressed people at a time when owning other people as property was considered a routine and unremarkable part of life; But nobody today can claim that the creator of a sentient life has the right to kill that sentience on a whim, without revealing that their moral compass is not just broken, but twisted beyond recognition.

This is your morality on religion - twisted evil shit that lets you celebrate mass murder on the grounds that owning people is perfectly acceptable, as long as you are a wise and well informed owner who knows better than his victims.

Fuck that.

Hi Bilby, I agree with your analogy, as it applies to humans, but i think that in the one special case when we are talking about the God of all Gods, the one who created everything, that He(she/it) really does reserve the right to do as He pleases. We cannot logically sit back and criticize the entity that put every thought and word and concept into our brains. He said I am what I am. He is beyond good and evil. So no, I don't agree with you that he is broken and twisted. I trust that he is dispensing perfect justice with his every move. This does not mean that he endorses every sick maneuver made by us humans or evil spirits that our free will affords - He is against it to the degree that he is - which, being God, is the perfect degree. To say that your opinion is greater/wiser than his is just your foolish human pride running rampant.

Gracias,

1I

Special pleading is a logical fallacy.

If it's morally wrong for you or I, or Pol Pot, or Joe Stalin to engage in genocide, because it's morally wrong for any moral agent to engage in genocide - then that includes all moral agents, including any gods.

You describe an evil, twisted, vile entity, and then say 'but I think it's OK because he's in charge'. But it's not OK.

Your argument is the same one that supporters of every vile dictator makes. It's intellectually and morally bankrupt, and tells us some horrifying things about you, and your mindless sycophancy, but nothing about your alleged god, except that you choose to give him a free pass, and you expect others to do the same.

Well fuck that. Nothing and nobody gets a free pass to commit genocide from me, and that you asked me to give one to your god makes you a terrible human being.

That you see yourself as a good person, and consider your support of this monster as evidence of your goodness tells me that you are not just a terrible person, but that you are incompetent to assess what is good or evil; You are a mindless lacky of perceived authority, and your self-image and worldview has been completely inverted by your unjustified faith in the ability of authority to dictate morality.

You exemplify the horrific mindset that has repeatedly led humanity to massacre, torture, death, and war.

Fuck your sick and twisted ideas, and the bronze age scrawls they rode in on.

 

[Brian63]

With having only skimmed through some of the responses, just wanted to follow up on a couple items:

Link1

He is beyond good and evil.

Then would you agree that Christians are unwarranted when they say that "God is good?" They are making a moral judgment of God, just as much as people who say "God is not good" are doing. God is beyond our own moral sense of good and evil though. If we are in no position to make any moral judgment on God, then we should just admit that "God is what God is, and I have no standing to declare Him/Her/It as good or evil."

Link2

Well, I think that as far as God's go, he is not really asking all that much. He put his very own son through hell for our benefit, and is basically just asking us to recognize/digest this fact. He is not asking us to do anything more - basically just requires a simple thank you.

Actually, he is requiring a lot more than a simple "thank you" in return. He is also requiring our complete obedience to Himself. He is also threatening to subject us to eternal torment if we refuse to do so. Whenever people perform charitable acts for other people or animals, they do so partly out of self-gain (it can make them feel emotionally satisfied to do so), but I do not recall any person performing an act of sacrifice for anyone else and then demanding and threatening the recipient to say "thank you" back in the form of complete obedience to themselves. That kinda removes any sense of generosity or charitableness out of the act.

Several years ago some atheists wrote out a parody of Christianity into text, and then eventually it got made into some videos as well. Here is one you can take a look at:

Kissing Hank's Ass

That does a good job of showing you how Christianity looks from the outside-in. It is not just silly and absurd, but immoral and reprehensible. You would probably view the Hank story as such, but then would not see the similarity of it to Christianity.

1ICrying, you seem like a nice person but unfortunately your mind and morality have been, and are being eroded by this cult institution. You can do better than that. We each get only 1 life, and when people essentially throw that 1 opportunity away by living it in deference to this absurd and immoral and destructive religious authoritative dogma, it is saddening to see. We need to do better than that if we individually and as a society have any chance to survive and thrive.