*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[Keith&Co.]

The difference between the child (in the analogy) and asshole, is that asshole is your human judgement of God.

This may come as a shock to you, but I have no access to any other system of judgment. I'm human, everyone I know with the ability to assess a person's behavior is human. Except my dog, but if God killed 42 cats because he's allergic to them, and slipped Heather a piece of baloney, she'd think he was cool.

As mentioned before, I think in the one case where we are dealing with an all mighty God - that it is unwise from our human standpoint to think that we can judge that God, especially talking down to that God.

Why? God takes steps. We have a moral system. We have several moral systems. Why can't we evaluate God's behavior against those?
I mean, you keep offering 'might makes right' for God's immoral slaughter or directing slaughters. Down here among humans, I have been told that's a bad justification for violence.
Hell, I tell my kids that's a bad justification for taking a cookie from a smaller sibling.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut you want to excuse your skybeast based on that....



Fuck that.

You can do it as you have but it isn't going to get you very far.

Why not? Because you're afraid to actually consider your god's behavior against a moral standard you were raised to adhere to?

In my analogy, God may be like a wild child, but that's his prerogative - not one I or you, lesser beings, can judge.

But we HAVE to.
This is the guy you think is the source of our morality. PART of my morality is NOT to accept 'do as I say not as I do' from my superiors. Nor is 'might makes right.'

But even if we conclude that God's a special case, his existence and his behavior has to make sense to the human brain in order for us to accept it. At least in my case, it does. I suspect others may believe, first, then twist and squirm as they try to justify what they see with what they know. Or in your case, just fucking ignore anything that a rational evaluation would throw up as a red flag.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Re: eternal torment in hell - I don't believe that Jesus once talks about hell, or that he is going to throw people into it. I do believe that there will be death. If there is a hell, I'm sure God will only allow those who truly deserve to be there, to be there.

So, who would 'truly deserve' to be burning in infinite misery for infinite time due to finite sins?

re: what's the deal of needing to believe before he'll save us. I don't know anything 100%, but I believe the story goes a little like this (in a nutshell): We were created (and were in paradise), we screwed up (not being perfect)(tempted/tricked by evil; free will); we all became susceptible to death.

We did not screw up. Adam and Woman were completely unequipped to make a moral decision and were left alone near dangerous materials.
If a human baby sticks his fork in a light socket, we do not kick him out of the house for being disobedient, no matter HOW many times we told him not to.

BUT, God, in his mercy, sent his Son, etc, etc., to save us. All that believe in him will be saved from death, and have eternal life.

Here's where you say - but why doesn't he just save everyone? Well, I can't know for certain,

Jesusfuckingchrist, stop throwing in the disclaimers! I KNOW you're not omniscient, nor an accepted biblical scholar, but it looks REALLY bad when you say some things without qualification, and make sure to qualify other things, especially explanations for how you got to the conclusions you do state.

but as I've been trying to say - from a God's point of view

Except you don't HAVE god's POV, you're just pretending that His POV is different from ours.

- the 'death' of a bunch of humans might not be a big deal.

Speaking as a human, nuts to that.

Why would I, a human, worship a being who did not hold the humans he made in any high regard?

Ashes to ashes; dust to dust. Maybe God really does cry at night for those who don't make it, I don't know. Apparently though, he knows the future and he's okay with it.

Doesn't make it any better for anyone in Hell.

He said 'let the dead bury the dead'. I guess he's too busy with the good stuff to cry over the bad stuff.

I think that's termed 'sociopathic?'

Apparently he loves us all, but because we have free will, he can't force us to love him back, or to accept his sacrifice.

You're twisting farther and farther from the question.

Okay, he can't force us to accept his sacrifice, but WHY do we have to in order to obtain his forgiveness?
What's the point?

If he really doesn't care that much for humans, then his 'send his only son' trick must not be a terrible burden, either. Which would make sense. He did not really sacrifice Jesus. Jesus just gave up a weekend. Now he's all better, though allegedly still has the holes to show... So, paradise for all time, 30 years having to sweat and smell other humans, 3 days in outrageous pain, paradise for the rest of forever. 'Sacrifice' is not the word. Minor inconvenience at best.

But whatever the value of this act, this trip to Earth and to the cross, why the rigmarole? Why not simply, I dunno, forgive?

I do it all the time. Sometimes I don't even point out to the people I love that they have pissed me off...

Was this sacrifice obvious enough?

Obvious isn't the question. I'd say 'credible' was the question.
But then again, the Bible tells us that God simply can't do enough for Man to get Man's attention for long. People who marched out of Egypt and saw the Red Sea's bed were, short time later, worshiping a golden calf. Mankind seems to be a little retarded. But God expects us to meet His expectations, despite the evidence?

I'd like to recap quickly just how obvious this truth is: The entire first half of the Bible is chuck full of prophecies (yes, prophecies, get over it) that talk about a messiah to come.

Yeah, he'll be a king, he'll kick the invaders out of Israel, he'll lead a huge army against the invaders...

They describe many of the things that this Messiah is going to do and say and be. The Messiah arrives and fulfills all of the prophecies,

Hardly.

including doing miracles and claiming to be the very son of God (not an easy feat to get away with if you were indeed lying).

Unless your biographer was lying about the lies you did and did not tell....

If you or I tried to do such a feat, it would probably take a day, an hour, or less, that people said - ya right. Well, it's 2000 years later and one third of the population still believes that this Messiah, Jesus, is in fact the Messiah that was prophesied about.

Yeah, just like Moses wrote about him, huh?
Eh, if a third of the population believed in Creationism, that would not persuade me that the science was worth a shit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not saying 'fuck you'. I'm just saying that you're wrong.

...

I have recently come to understand that no Christian has come to believe without the grace of God - it is not something we earn - it is given.

So, you say that Abaddon is "wrong", but follow up saying that it isn't actually Abaddon's fault they are wrong. They simply haven't been given the grace of God to understand. And if he hasn't been given the grace, then how can he Led Zeppelin it up? You are saying it isn't their choice, but God's choice.

And how are you going to "snatch" someone from the "abyss" if it isn't you that is responsible for people to believe?

 

[Keith&Co.]

For those of you who think that Jesus (and his evil buddies) just went through the list and simply did everything that was prophesied, without being the true Messiah, then I think that you are foolish. How and Why could a person who did nothing more than preach about love and truth and justice, go and pull a big prank/lie?

You are assuming that the Jesus myth wasn't just made up 70 years later. Got any corroboration for those prophecy fulfillments?

Why did he andall those around him, the disciples, go to their deaths if they knew it was just a big lie?

For the same reason that Darth Maul went to HIS death for his Master.

And if Jesus was not the Messiah, than who are all those prophecies talking about? Is there a donkey riding guy about to be crucified in our future?

Oh, that's a non-foolish defense of Jesus/ divinity. Jesus must be the messiah because no one would ride a donkey these days?

So that's the basis of why I believe.

I don't think so.
I think you believe because you were raised to believe, then you go through the squirming and special case fallacies to justify scriptures to match what you already believe. Not to be confused with a bunch of bronze-age myths, and anonymous conflicting accounts of some guy being actually compelling as testimony, evidence or archaeological finds.

For you guys, who are arguing that for instance, because the Bible describes the earth as a circle, instead of a sphere, that you just can't believe any of it - I say, give your head a shake. Get on board while you can.

But it's still a book describing the Earth as Flat. A fear of being sent to Hell of my honest appraisal of the facts of the matter is NOT going to change my honest appraisal. I won't lie to a putative God for the sake of pleasing that God.

As for me. I do care about you (humans out there). Does the cop who is trying to talk the jumper down off the ledge care whether or not he jumps or not? Yes, he does. BUT, if he fails, he cannot let that failure stop him from regrouping and trying to save the next guy.

Yeah, well if he fails, MAYBE he should consider why he failed?
Such as if all the discussion about reasons to live end up with comments about how much it's going to hurt when he hits the pavement, maybe a better topic should be found.
Or if all his efforts to solve the jumpers problems end up as rationalizing the problems without solution? "Hey, maybe your rapist had a good reason to fuck you, or maybe from his point of view, he was trying to do you a favor."

Does the marriage councillor break down and cry along with the people he is trying to help? Partially yes - but not 100% That is part of the meaning behind my online name - 1ICrying. I'll cry with one eye, but not with both. How about you?

I....what? I can't even parse this.

I am doing my best to convince others of my thesis - that the Bible is truth.

Then you kinda suck at that.
Just scroll back up a tiny bit. Where you don't actually try to convince me that the Earth is flat, or that the Bible describes a sphere, just jump all the way to the threat posed for nonbelievers? That's not convincing.
The carrot and the stick approach might work, if your stick and carrot weren't such cartoonish threats.

I know that I am not the best at it; there are millions that are ahead of me in that regard.

Meh.

Most of the times I, when I believed, asked questions, the answers responses I got were either
1) Platitudes like 'trust in the LORD' or 'it's a mystery' or 'only God knows'
2) Anger that I even asked the question ("How dare you question God's perfect judgment?!" and "Who are you to ask this?"
3) and IOUs for answers. 'you'll understand one day' or 'when you see the light...'

You're no different than millions of apologists.

Why does he only rescue conditionally? Well, I think that as far as God's go, he is not really asking all that much.

See? Like that.
Not answering WHY he puts conditions on His love, just downplaying the cost of meeting those conditions.

THis is a response, not an answer.

He put his very own son through hell for our benefit, and is basically just asking us to recognize/digest this fact. He is not asking us to do anything more - basically just requires a simple thank you.

So, WHY would I thank him for not just forgiving me?
Remember the end of Noah's story, it's just mankind's fucking nature to be wicked. He's the one that made us, and holds us responsible for HIM being an inattentive caregiver. He should be apologizing to us.

Maybe atheists and the more cynical agnostics are the only ones who will make it through this without accepting total bullshit as facts. Maybe. Is that what you are betting/hoping on?

No, 1eye. No, I'm not 'Betting' n anything. I am trying to honestly figure out what's going on based on the evidence before me. You and your ilk constantly frame it as an adopted stance which seems to indicate YOU guys aren't all that honest.
If you really interpret all beliefs as 'this is what you are betting on,' it would seem to indicate your faith is no deeper than a cost/benefit analysis.

It's not bad. I do believe that God knows exactly where we are all at as far as knowledge, belief, desire, sincerity go, and that he will reward us all fairly. Maybe that's why he has me here trying to convince you guys to have a change of heart.

Or maybe 'He' doesn't have anything to do with you being here, it's just your self-image gets a buffer from thinking you're doing this with God's approval.

This would be true whether gods exist or do not...

 

[southernhybrid]

Maybe I missed it, but has 1I explained why people like me were never spoken to by the Christian god during the years that we prayed and asked him to help us find the truth? That in itself should be enough evidence for the nonexistence of this supernatural being.

And, 1I, your answers to most of these questions are as simplistic as the answers that my late father gave me when I asked him why god, who was supposed to be all loving, would punish people with eternal hell, for the simple "sin" of not being able to recognize him as the one true god. Just like you, my father would tell me things like, "god will explain it when we get to heaven", or "we can't always understand why god acts as he does".

I know you probably mean well, but you're just pouring out the same nonsense that many of us, who were once Christians, have heard time and time again. These answers are silly and unbelievable to anyone who prefers to use their reasoning abilities to come to a conclusion. I'm sorry, but to me, it sounds like you just believe what you want to believe, regardless of how unrealistic your claims appear to be to reasonable people.

People of all religions do the same thing. My ex husband is a Baha'i, a much kinder, gentler religion than Christianity. Still, the beliefs are very unrealistic and their prophets sound nicer, but are too utopian to be believable to a skeptic. For example, these folks promote racial and sexual equality, and world peace. Those are all wonderful things. But, world peace was supposed to be accomplished by t he year 2000. But, since it wasn't they have another trick to pull out of the hat. World peace was something that humans had the chance to accomplish but they failed, so now we will have to go through a very difficult time, until, God helps us establish the "most great peace". That's the peace that will last forever. Now, while those things all sound like nice ideas, it doesn't seem as if we're heading in the right direction. But, at least Baha'is don't believe in a hell and their concept of an afterlife is quite vague.

It's sort of like when a non Christian says Jesus said he'd be back "quickly", so why hasn't he returned? It's been 2000 years, yet they still wait his return. So, the Christian makes up all kinds of nonsense as to what Jesus really meant when he said he'd be back quickly. Things like maybe a day is really like a thousand years in Jesus time. Maybe quickly means something different to god. You know what I'm talking about. When people simply believe something because they want it to be true, or because it gives them an emotional high, they will make up all kinds of shit to convince themselves that the stuff they believe is true.

We humans aren't the most rational species, are we? Look around you. Humans believe in all kinds of crazy stuff, but to those who believe the crazy stuff, the stuff seems real. For example, my sister left Christianity but then started believing in all kinds of weird shit, like if you dust with certain herbs, it chases the evil spirits away. WTF! I don't remember the other stuff she's told me, but you get the idea. So to you, her beliefs are nuts, but to her, your beliefs are nuts. To me, both of you have nutty beliefs. See how that works.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Maybe I missed it, but has 1I explained why people like me were never spoken to by the Christian god during the years that we prayed and asked him to help us find the truth? That in itself should be enough evidence for the nonexistence of this supernatural being.

Sort of. 1I thinks maybe you're not important to Allah. Your descent into Hell doesn't bother him, so your search for the truth doesn't involve him. So, you know, you should love god and Pray to Him in the hopes that he'll save you, anyway... For no apparent reason...

 

[Brian63]

Keith, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes disagree with you, but like you and your contributions to this forum either way. Still, I think your anger is getting the better of you temporarily and you would be better off taking a short (just a day or so) break from this thread at least. It is frustrating to interact with someone who ignores something right in front of them, but getting furious with them will not help them see it any better, but it will hurt ourselves in the meantime.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Keith, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes disagree with you, but like you and your contributions to this forum either way. Still, I think your anger is getting the better of you temporarily and you would be better off taking a short (just a day or so) break from this thread at least. It is frustrating to interact with someone who ignores something right in front of them, but getting furious with them will not help them see it any better, but it will hurt ourselves in the meantime.

Meh, they aren't really reading it anyway. Just shifting the goalposts to the next predetermined location. These "conversations" have been had, and the thread feels like it belongs in our forum about 15 years ago.

Whether poster is legit or not, they have both stated that God chooses who is saved (and for the record, I am a Calvinistic Atheist), yet they are here to save us (or at least one person). They aren't even following their own stated beliefs. Typically impossible to counter such irrational thought.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Keith, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes disagree with you, but like you and your contributions to this forum either way. Still, I think your anger is getting the better of you temporarily and you would be better off taking a short (just a day or so) break from this thread at least. It is frustrating to interact with someone who ignores something right in front of them, but getting furious with them will not help them see it any better, but it will hurt ourselves in the meantime.

Well, I like you, too. And agree/disagree probably about as often.
What, exactly, do you think is me being furious, though?
And how would it be better without the fury? Am I incorrect?

 

[fromderinside]

Any one for Buddha ball?

 

[Brian63]

What, exactly, do you think is me being furious, though?

It looks that way with the shouting, the insulting terms, personally dismissive remarks, and trying to respond almost line-by-line to everything 1ICrying says with a snarky comment even if it was not essential to the most significant points. A lot of posters on this forum, who I dislike, do that regularly. It just got a bit disappointing to see you getting dragged into it too, because I do like you.

And how would it be better without the fury? Am I incorrect?

I think it helps everyone more to have a more humanitarian mindset towards each other. As disgusting as 1ICrying's religious views are, it is not his/her fault for having them. He/she is a victim of them, given whatever his/her life circumstances are, and we should be trying to help such people more than hurt them.

 

[abaddon]

Hi Abaddon - It seems like it's okay for you to call me an asshole and idiot to believe what I believe, but the second I stand up for my belief, you cry 'poor me'.

"I scarcely care, but I'm giving it a feint go"

"In the end though, we're not going to mourn those who didn't make it"

"Do you see how you really aren't that smart at all?"

Phrases like that don't help the sales pitch. I pointed out that you're not just unconvincing but that your religion seems to do little more for you than make you smug. That is not me saying "poor me". It's me saying "That's worse than just unconvincing".

Then you say we might or might not be granted grace anyway. You should definitely address Jimmy Higgins' point on that matter.

I know I'm going to die. Shall I do like you do and lie to myself? No thanks. Maybe your belief in ludicrous fairy tales has somehow mitigated your fear of death, but it's still just a story in your head... So you gain nothing but to be deluded up till your consciousness melts away.

Here's what your assertions amount to: 'You folk too (maybe, if there's enough grace your reason stops working) can share my delusional state'.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What, exactly, do you think is me being furious, though?

It looks that way with the shouting, the insulting terms, personally dismissive remarks,

okay. In the office, i don't reach the stage of 'furious' until furniture breaks.

and trying to respond almost line-by-line to everything 1ICrying says with a snarky comment even if it was not essential to the most significant points.

Well, he's going to disappear for a while, ignore most of whatever is posted, not start any actual conversation. We're left to amuse ourselves. I already know he's not responding to most of this so it's mostly for tge regulars. Sometimes i get a rep point when someone says i put something in a new or clever turnnof phrase.

A lot of posters on this forum, who I dislike, do that regularly. It just got a bit disappointing to see you getting dragged into it too, because I do like you.

okay. Thanx.

And how would it be better without the fury? Am I incorrect?

I think it helps everyone more to have a more humanitarian mindset towards each other.

um....
This guy worships a god who likely may not value human life any more than the gardener values the worms that aereate the soil.
He has kinda slipped the leash on humanitarian concerns. If he can maybe come to see that, there might be hope for him.

 

[Brian63]

It is in these types of scenarios where it seems we can go off into 2 noticeably directions. When we are confronted with a religious fundamentalist, whether they are the hellfire-and-brimstone variety or the "Jesus just wants you to kiss his ass" variety, but either one is apparently immune to any kind of logic, then we atheists can switch into our own angry-atheist mode and throw temper tantrums and insult religious believers in general and these specific believers for being stupid, immoral, etc. Or we can try to get them to see for themselves that they are wrong. They are far less likely to admitting to such a proposition when we are in attack mode and they would be in personal-defense mode. If we want to help them, we need to stop treating them as our enemies. As stated earlier, they are the result of their circumstances. I do not know 1ICrying's particulars, but we each have our own stories to tell of how we started and how we got to where we are currently. They both consist of a lot of luck. It is not entirely 1ICrying's fault that he (I don't know 1ICrying's gender, but will use male for the ease of writing) holds the belief that he does. He was just born with a particular brain that functioned in a particular way, with predispositions to believe certain things over others, and then the environment he has always been surrounded by triggers certain mental chain reactions and emotions and feelings and biases. That all forms his worldview, same as for the rest of us. He is not morally at fault for holding the religious views he does anymore than we are morally creditable for holding the secularist views that we do. Consider it the determinist in me, that people do not have free will in any kind of spiritual sense and we should not be treated as if we do.

Instead of maintaining the the angry-atheist method of debate, I think we would all be better off if we focused more on the humanitarian method of debate, and always try (to the best of our abilities) to help those who currently cannot help themselves. Either they have never been aware that there was another viable option to their (current) religious beliefs, or it is too psychologically strenuous for them to detach from them, or they would suffer in terms of social and family and community relationships, etc.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Or we can try to get them to see for themselves that they are wrong.

One quick question, Brian, how did you feel when 1I stated his intention to convert us to his way of thinking?

 

[Brian63]

A few different feelings.

Unsurprised, since it is part of the religious program that they are supposed to try and convert those who hold alternative views.

Generally, in a more appreciative sense, I at least try (though often fail) to be open to changing my mind if someone presents some new persuasive information, evidence, or argument. So I try to be appreciative of someone who shows me some flaw in my beliefs, particularly when they are not being an asshole in doing so.

Also very thankful in a more specific sense. If he believes that us atheists would literally be going to spend eternity in hell for believing what we do, then I would very much prefer that he do everything he can to stop that. I find it disgusting that any fundamentalist Christians can believe that any others will spend all of eternity in relentless torture, and they effectively just shrug their shoulders and say "Eh." and then walk away. If they actually cared about me and others, they should be spending every single ounce of energy into preventing that from happening. The atheist/magician Penn Jillette has made similar comments in a much better fashion: "How Much Do You Have to Hate Somebody to Not Proselytize?"

“I’ve always said that I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize. I don’t respect that at all. If you believe that there’s a heaven and a hell, and people could be going to hell or not getting eternal life, and you think that it’s not really worth telling them this because it would make it socially awkward—and atheists who think people shouldn’t proselytize and who say just leave me alone and keep your religion to yourself—how much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?

“I mean, if I believed, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a truck was coming at you, and you didn’t believe that truck was bearing down on you, there is a certain point where I tackle you. And this is more important than that.”

Also note that even though I think their goal to save us from hell is noble, I strongly disagree with their method. It is really God they should be spending their time and effort making appeals to, since God would be the ultimate and final say in who goes to heaven or hell. That God would even create hell or send anyone there renders God a despicable being, but that may be for a different topic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Also very thankful in a more specific sense. If he believes that us atheists would literally be going to spend eternity in hell for believing what we do, then I would very much prefer that he do everything he can to stop that.

But he also said that God chooses who believes. So they are deluded if they think they have any impact on our belief.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Also very thankful in a more specific sense. If he believes that us atheists would literally be going to spend eternity in hell for believing what we do, then I would very much prefer that he do everything he can to stop that.

But he also said that God chooses who believes. So they are deluded if they think they have any impact on our belief.

But that's for 1I's benefit.
He proselytizes for him to get credit with god.
If we convert, he will claim personal success and prowess as a recruiter.
If we don't, he will not have to admit to failure, because it's all in God's hands.
At the same time, he's not like Brian or, I hope, me, in being open to any compelling evidence for any other viewpoint. That openness would be anathema to the Faithful.

 

[Sarpedon]

So why bother at all?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Because I can only masturbate so many times each day...