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We are overloading the planet: Now What?

Intelligence looks more and more to me like a lethal mutation.
It would help if we were as rational as we like to think we are. But we aren't. It does look more and more like the clever apes with opposable thumbs is an evolutionary dead end.
Tom
 
Now, consider you have a pile of coal with 100 tWh of thermal energy. We have two choices: burn it and get 37.5 tWh of electric, or use it to build a nuclear power plant that will produce 500 tWh of steam over the course of its life. The nuclear plant seems like a much better choice, But remember, that steam in the nuclear power plant does us little good unless we convert it to electricity. That gives us about 187 tWh. Still 187tWh over the life of the reactor sounds better than a one-shot of 37.5 tWh when the coal is burnt directly, so that sounds like a good energy investment. But, of course, we need to consider all the other costs of nuclear (uranium enrichment, labor, waste materials, decommissioning, etc.). And when we add it all up, we find that nuclear reactors are often uneconomical, and require government subsidies to keep running. ((Clifford, 2022). Few plants are even being built any more. (Davis, 2012, Clifford, 2023).

And in the future it will be much harder to justify nuclear. Do the math. Lets say the pile of coal is gone, and we now need to use electricity from an existing nuclear plant to build our next plant. We don't even have the furnaces to make the components using electric, but lets say we can make them. Now we use 100 tWh of electricity instead of 100 tWh of coal to create the next nuclear plant that will eventually give us 187 tWh electricity output. Suddenly the cost justification becomes much harder, Now, instead of giving up the resulting 37.5 tWh of electricity we would get from that coal, we give up 100 tWh from the nuclear plant. And we still have all the existing problems that are driving investors away from building nuclear plants now.
Seeing we need nuclear to manage a real problem of climate change, this economic issue is a red herring. The reality is the economics get better if we tax carbon.
I support government subsidies of nuclear plants. Even if they cost more than simply burning coal, they extend the life of our coal, and that is worth doing. But in the future when coal supplies get short? I wander if we will ever even be able to build nuclear.

The same goes with all forms of alternate energy. They show promise for extending the life of fossil fuels, and yet they still have trouble showing a profit. Without fossil fuels, they might not even be possible for at a price that any but the extremely wealthy people can afford.

And without an electricity source that the masses can afford, the carrying capacity of the Earth goes way down.
Fuck me! The real problem with population growth is the global capacity to provide 12 billion people a first world standard of living... all the while not torching the planet. Not whether we can produce electricity. That has got to be the easiest of the issues to resolve.
Yes. Third word was seen post WWII as a market to grow the American economy. Post war we had about 50% of the global economy.

When everybody has a car and refrigerator, you have to find more people to sell to. Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
 
Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
That is a quandary that I don't know how to solve, or if there is a solution.
If global population growth levels off or declines, how can a growth-dependent economic system thrive?
Instinctively it would seem that fewer people = more for the rest of us, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.
What alternatives exist?
 
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart was born into a world with only a billion humans. Sir Isaac Newton was born when the population was only half that. Do we really need 8 billion?

Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
That is a quandary that I don't know how to solve, or if there is a solution.
If global population growth levels off or declines, how can a growth-dependent economic system thrive?
Instinctively it would seem that fewer people = more for the rest of us, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.
What alternatives exist?

Between 1820 and 1960 the population of France grew from 30 million to 40 million. That's an average annual growth rate of only 0.2%. Productivity rose at an average annual rate of 1.4% or thereabouts over the same period. For many centuries the European population growth rate was 0.2% or less. Between 1900 and the present, Europe's share of world population shrunk from 25% to 10%. Yet Europe bloomed economically.

If Jake has the best hardware store in town and is prosperous, Jake Jr. will also prosper when he takes the store over, if the town's population is about the same.

Why then is population growth sometimes considered essential for the world economy? (Let's ignore the demographic -- number of retirees -- issue.) I think part of the explanation is a focus on top stock-market performers. Continued growth of companies like Apple or even Coca Cola relies on population growth. This is a "problem" for those who just rent out capital, but should NOT be an issue for the working class.

But of course, people are not the target of many decision makers. Stock prices are what matter.
 
Why then is population growth sometimes considered essential for the world economy?
Because environmentalists like to conflate population growth and economic growth, as a way to justify their neo-luddism.

They want economic recession (or are, at least, aware that it's a consequence of their policies); So they say dumb things like "growth cannot continue indefinitely, because we would run out of room", (or resources, or whatever), while conveniently ignoring the fact that economic growth is measured in fiat dollars, which are limited only by the availability of higher numbers.

Economic growth can continue indefinitely, even in the face of both declining resource use, and declining population.
 
economic growth is measured in fiat dollars, which are limited only by the availability of higher numbers.

Economic growth can continue indefinitely, even in the face of both declining resource use, and declining population.

Nitpick(?): Growth is measured in "constant dollars" -- fiat dollars divided by a price index.

Economic growth rate, almost by definition, is given by labor productivity growth plus the growth in gross employment.
 
I don't think there is a solution for a controlled transition to something else..

Some yeaRS back I watched a video series on the history of western civilization.

It goes back to the beginning.

Civilizations rise, assimilation occurs, civilization fails, a new synthesis evolves.

In the process knowledge and literacy rose.

I listened to an anthropologist talk about why civilizations fail. A conciliation rises and becomes successful based o a set of paradigms. Complexity of problems grow ad the old paradigms no longer work. Leadership changes but they are from the same pool, same paradigms and problems get worse.
 
Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
That is a quandary that I don't know how to solve, or if there is a solution.
If global population growth levels off or declines, how can a growth-dependent economic system thrive?
Instinctively it would seem that fewer people = more for the rest of us, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.
What alternatives exist?

Brian Czech and Herman Daly propose steady state economics.

Basically, we provide for our needs and wants, live well, but nobody gets richer and richer.

Steady state economics shouldn't exlude continual progress in research and development, technology, efficiency and improving how we live, just without the expanding population, consumption, exploitation of resources, ecosystems, etc, as we do business ....
 
Basically, we provide for our needs and wants, live well, but nobody gets richer and richer.
Stipulating that at least some people will like that... but it will put the people whose job is currently to make themselves richer and richer out of work. As it is, it sure appears to me that with just a few million bucks, a house and a less than truly extravagant lifestyle, you can hardly avoid becoming richer and richer in Murka unless you gamble excessively or something. Kinda like how when a person gets just so poor, they tend to get poorer and poorer.
 
Being steady state economics, no population growth, an equilibrium may be achieved. After all, you can only eat so much, sleep on one bed, sit in one chair, you don't buy more and more houses, clothes, cars, shoes, etc, because maintenance costs exceed benefit and it becomes a poor investment.
 
Yea, one can propose anything.

Russian and Chinese communists thought they could structurally create equality and justice. A controlled system. Both failed.

As I see it the fundamental problem is regardless of the system you still have the same basic humans.
 
Hopefully our declining birthrate will avoid the problem.

Nope. There are too many who will rush to occupy the ecologically devastating niche of the absent population. The rate of population growth slowing, or even population decline, is sort of irrelevant at this point.
Intelligence looks more and more to me like a lethal mutation.
Fermi Paradox.

Something makes interstellar civilization unlikely at a tens of billions to one level. Planetary physics can reduce this somewhat but there still is something biological in the billion to one range. Either we have already had such luck, or we are facing odds like that in the near future. The more we learn about planets and life the more things in our past get eliminated as candidates. Note that it is not unreasonable to figure we succeeded on a billion to one longshot--survivorship bias.
 
Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
That is a quandary that I don't know how to solve, or if there is a solution.
If global population growth levels off or declines, how can a growth-dependent economic system thrive?
Instinctively it would seem that fewer people = more for the rest of us, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.
What alternatives exist?

Brian Czech and Herman Daly propose steady state economics.

Basically, we provide for our needs and wants, live well, but nobody gets richer and richer.

Steady state economics shouldn't exlude continual progress in research and development, technology, efficiency and improving how we live, just without the expanding population, consumption, exploitation of resources, ecosystems, etc, as we do business ....
It's an unstable system. Sooner or later someone will come up with an innovation. And just because it's steady doesn't mean it's not consuming resources.
 
Yea, one can propose anything.

Russian and Chinese communists thought they could structurally create equality and justice. A controlled system. Both failed.

As I see it the fundamental problem is regardless of the system you still have the same basic humans.
Yup--Marxian economics are based on the fundamental flaw that the means of production are static and permanent.
 
Capitalism collapses when there is no growth.
That is a quandary that I don't know how to solve, or if there is a solution.
If global population growth levels off or declines, how can a growth-dependent economic system thrive?
Instinctively it would seem that fewer people = more for the rest of us, but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.
What alternatives exist?

Brian Czech and Herman Daly propose steady state economics.

Basically, we provide for our needs and wants, live well, but nobody gets richer and richer.

Steady state economics shouldn't exlude continual progress in research and development, technology, efficiency and improving how we live, just without the expanding population, consumption, exploitation of resources, ecosystems, etc, as we do business ....
It's an unstable system. Sooner or later someone will come up with an innovation. And just because it's steady doesn't mean it's not consuming resources.


Steady state economics doesn't exclude innovation, development or progress. Nor is it a matter of not consuming resources, just not consuming more and more and more resources, ie, no perpetual growth in consumption.
 
Does steady state mean a human population that does not grow?

In a steady state system I think there would be other problems. If the population is static then there is a fixed work force.

How are wages(aka compensations) set? Who says what and what does not get manufactured?

In the free market capitalist system production and compensation are set by supply and demand.
 
Does steady state mean a human population that does not grow?

In a steady state system I think there would be other problems. If the population is static then there is a fixed work force.

How are wages(aka compensations) set? Who says what and what does not get manufactured?

In the free market capitalist system production and compensation are set by supply and demand.


Same as now, want and need, supply and demand determines what is manufactured, and aging and death ensures that the workforce is never 'fixed.'

That population and consumption doesn't keep growing within a steady state economy only excludes more and more and more people and consumption.
 
The only path that doesn't lead to catastrophe is technological--develop ways to maintain our standard of living without consuming irreplaceable resources. Is there a path? There's no way to be certain other than trying. If the path exists can we find and follow it before things collapse? Again, no way of being certain.
Yes, the same thing I have said many times. Pursue technological advances.

But also be honest with what it can do. And the fact is that nuclear and renewables do not show any signs of being able to give us what fossil fuels have done. See Live Smarter?
 
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