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Wealth Redistribution or Wealth Return?

All those pooled small investors allow the board members to make those decisions for them because they don't
have any other realistic options.

It's a rigged system. The pooled small investors have the democratic ability to get the decisions they want from the board, in exactly the same way that the pooled popular votes of Americans have the democratic ability to get rid of the Republican controlled Senate.
The pooled popular votes of Americans did get rid of the Republican controlled Senate, on Nov. 3, 2020.


(It's not in exactly the same way, though. The popular votes of shareholders are pooled by simply adding them up, instead of by that arcane multi-level pooling method the U.S. Senate uses.)
 
Politesse said:
me said:
And you have evidence that a working class has the capacity and the knowledge to produce all those things, do you?
Obviously, or we wouldn't have them.

That's a circular argument -- you're de facto saying the wealthy class are parasites and the evidence for this is that the wealthy class are parasites.
Well, the human condition is that ... The wealthy class, like all classes, contains many wannabe parasites. ...
It's not so much a circular argument, as the recognition of a vicious circle.
:consternation2:
Your ability to construct a noncircular argument for a class containing some parasitic members, based on observation, does not in any way change the reality that Politesse constructed a circular argument for that class being parasitic as a whole, based on a steaming pile of Labor Theory of Value dingos' kidneys.
 
Bomb, would you be more comfortable if I restricted myself to kindergarten-level insults in the future? Those meanie-heads!
(With grown-up language censored for your comfort):
:picardfacepalm:
I turned the other cheek at your original strike, but now you've just hit me again, and I only have two cheeks. I'm not into Jesus' whole forgive four hundred and ninety times thing.

You appear to be under the peculiar impression that talking like a South Park 4th-grader is "grown-up language". It's childish. But it's only mildly childish; it's not the issue here. What's severely childish is your dishonorable attempt to strawman me in order to belittle me and belittle my criticism of your post. That didn't have anything to do with my "comfort", and when you pretend it did, you are behaving like a schoolyard bully sneering "Little baby gonna cry now?". Your spicy language does not make me uncomfortable. Quite the reverse. Cuss all you please with my blessing. If you want to put the impoverishment of your vocabulary on open display that's no skin off my nose.

The reason I called out your sentence is because it was hate-speech against your outgroup. Calling the wealthy class excrement is not morally any worthier than calling the Jews excrement. If you'd done that and gotten called on for it, you wouldn't have expected any of your readers to be impressed by you sneeringly asking if your challenger preferred you call the Jews meanie-heads. But of course you did expect the choir you preach to to go along with your falsified narrative about my "comfort". You expected that because outgroups are like children -- it's different when they're yours.
 
Bomb, would you be more comfortable if I restricted myself to kindergarten-level insults in the future? Those meanie-heads!
(With grown-up language censored for your comfort):
:picardfacepalm:
I turned the other cheek at your original strike, but now you've just hit me again, and I only have two cheeks. I'm not into Jesus' whole forgive four hundred and ninety times thing.

You appear to be under the peculiar impression that talking like a South Park 4th-grader is "grown-up language". It's childish. But it's only mildly childish; it's not the issue here. What's severely childish is your dishonorable attempt to strawman me in order to belittle me and belittle my criticism of your post. That didn't have anything to do with my "comfort", and when you pretend it did, you are behaving like a schoolyard bully sneering "Little baby gonna cry now?". Your spicy language does not make me uncomfortable. Quite the reverse. Cuss all you please with my blessing. If you want to put the impoverishment of your vocabulary on open display that's no skin off my nose.

The reason I called out your sentence is because it was hate-speech against your outgroup. Calling the wealthy class excrement is not morally any worthier than calling the Jews excrement. If you'd done that and gotten called on for it, you wouldn't have expected any of your readers to be impressed by you sneeringly asking if your challenger preferred you call the Jews meanie-heads. But of course you did expect the choir you preach to to go along with your falsified narrative about my "comfort". You expected that because outgroups are like children -- it's different when they're yours.
You are very confused about what my point even was. "The wealthy" (whoever that is) are not all dipshits, nor are all dipshits wealthy. But a person who is both a dipshit and wealthy has considerable power to make other people's lives unjustly and unreasonably miserable. Ergo, my objection to a system that caters to the desires of wealthy dipshits while ignoring or dismissing the legitimate needs and rights of the people who produce the goods and services society needs to function. Creatures of the system, like our 45th president, hoard huge portions of our nation's wealth while contributing next to nothing back to the society that has so unnecessrily blessed them. That's what makes them wealthy dipshits. Not just "the wealthy", a term which I think has very little meaning given how subjective its definition must surely be. So, I certainly do not see this as class discrimination, nor do I see how you could possibly address actual class discrimination while also carefully avoiding criticism of anyone with money and power. My problem with crony capitalism is not the mere existence of weath but the encouragement of ill-gotten and unearned wealth.

As for the "cussing" tidbit, I'm quickly getting bored with your critiques of my language, so I'll be ignoring them from here on out. If you can think of a less profane word that means the same thing as dipshit, feel free to suggest it, but I'm done discussing the derail.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
I assume it's the median wage in manufacturing because the same data keeps getting regurgitated--occasionally properly labeled. I've already explained this!
Your assumption that something is true does not make it true, no matter how hard you wish it to be nit how often your claim it to be true. At least you admit you are making an assumption.

Loren Pechtel said:
The data about not keeping up was hourly manufacturing. That doesn't say other jobs haven't kept up.
Your first sentence is an assumption. Assuming it is true for argument’s sake, your comment is valid. But it is up to you to provide evidence to support your claim. Which you have still failed to provide.
Repeatedly asking for sources that have been previously provided is derailing. I've addressed this before.
Your belief does not make it true. The data on wages us from the BLS which is for all industries, not just manufacturing That data suggests wages do not keep with inflation. It is up to you to present evidence to support your counterclaim if you want people to your claim seriously. It is clear from the lengths you have gone to avoid preventing evidence that you are unable to support your claim and are hiding behind bogus accusations.
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
 
Politesse constructed a circular argument for that class being parasitic as a whole, based on a steaming pile of Labor Theory of Value dingos' kidneys.
I did no such thing. A class of people cannot be "parasitic as a whole", that makes no logical sense whatsoever, circular or not. Such a "class" would be unable to function or persist.
 
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Wrong on all counts. I did not present the data, #Bomb 20 did. Your belief that this data is not representative of the whole labor market has no basis in fact. You have yet to present an iota of actual evidence to support any of your claims. Until you present evidence to support your claims of alleged fact, you are babbling.
 
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Wrong on all counts. I did not present the data, #Bomb 20 did. Your belief that this data is not representative of the whole labor market has no basis in fact. You have yet to present an iota of actual evidence to support any of your claims. Until you present evidence to support your claims of alleged fact, you are babbling.
This is stuff we've gone over before.
 
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Wrong on all counts. I did not present the data, #Bomb 20 did. Your belief that this data is not representative of the whole labor market has no basis in fact. You have yet to present an iota of actual evidence to support any of your claims. Until you present evidence to support your claims of alleged fact, you are babbling.
This is stuff we've gone over before.
I understand that is your deeply mistaken belief.

You have presented no reason ( other than your belief) to accept your admitted assumption that the wage data refers only to the manufacturing sector. You’ve presented no evidence to support your claim the manufacturing wages are relatively low compared to other sectors. In fact, you have repeatedly refused to present any data to support your assertions, based on the flimsy and unacceptable excuse that sometime in the past you did so. Really, explain why anyone should accept your position given your outright refusal to support it with facts?
 
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Wrong on all counts. I did not present the data, #Bomb 20 did. Your belief that this data is not representative of the whole labor market has no basis in fact. You have yet to present an iota of actual evidence to support any of your claims. Until you present evidence to support your claims of alleged fact, you are babbling.
This is stuff we've gone over before.
Don’t make you any more correct.
 
This is stuff we've gone over before.
And we're going over it again, so you need to bring out the evidence, or not participate at all.

Nobody's going to accept a placeholder for evidence in the form "I had this argument at an unspecified time in the past, with unspecified individuals, and as I provided them with solid evidence for my position, you too must now accept that I am right"

That's not how discussion works. If you're bored with defending a position over and over again, then keep the evidence somewhere handy to cut and paste as required; Or just quit and let other people be wrong about something.

If you've defended your position previously on this board, you can likely search out your evidence using the board's search features, and copy it or link to it.
 
As for the "cussing" tidbit, I'm quickly getting bored with your critiques of my language,
If it bores you then you shouldn't have brought the subject of your language up in the first place -- you should never have strawmanned me by offering your pathetic defense of something no one had critiqued. I critiqued your bigotry, not your language.

so I'll be ignoring them from here on out. If you can think of a less profane word that means the same thing as <snip>, feel free to suggest it, ...
Been there, done that. "[hated by Politesse]".
 
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Wrong on all counts. I did not present the data, #Bomb 20 did. Your belief that this data is not representative of the whole labor market has no basis in fact. You have yet to present an iota of actual evidence to support any of your claims. Until you present evidence to support your claims of alleged fact, you are babbling.
This is stuff we've gone over before.
Don’t make you any more correct.
I was not rebutted before. This whole thing is just a derail to avoid addressing a fact you don't like.
 
This is stuff we've gone over before.
And we're going over it again, so you need to bring out the evidence, or not participate at all.

Nobody's going to accept a placeholder for evidence in the form "I had this argument at an unspecified time in the past, with unspecified individuals, and as I provided them with solid evidence for my position, you too must now accept that I am right"

That's not how discussion works. If you're bored with defending a position over and over again, then keep the evidence somewhere handy to cut and paste as required; Or just quit and let other people be wrong about something.

If you've defended your position previously on this board, you can likely search out your evidence using the board's search features, and copy it or link to it.
But once things have been presented you don't get to conveniently ignore them the next time the topic comes up. It's not my job to make you remember inconvenient facts.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
I assume it's the median wage in manufacturing because the same data keeps getting regurgitated--occasionally properly labeled. I've already explained this!
Your assumption that something is true does not make it true, no matter how hard you wish it to be nit how often your claim it to be true. At least you admit you are making an assumption.

Loren Pechtel said:
The data about not keeping up was hourly manufacturing. That doesn't say other jobs haven't kept up.
Your first sentence is an assumption. Assuming it is true for argument’s sake, your comment is valid. But it is up to you to provide evidence to support your claim. Which you have still failed to provide.
Repeatedly asking for sources that have been previously provided is derailing. I've addressed this before.
Your belief does not make it true. The data on wages us from the BLS which is for all industries, not just manufacturing That data suggests wages do not keep with inflation. It is up to you to present evidence to support your counterclaim if you want people to your claim seriously. It is clear from the lengths you have gone to avoid preventing evidence that you are unable to support your claim and are hiding behind bogus accusations.
You are presenting data which I have previously shown is not reprsentative of the whole labor market.
Did you present the information that any unemployment went up as a result or that hours worked dropped as a result? All you did in that thread was say that rising minimum wage would cause an indiscernible increase in the unemployment rate. Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove your case by showing how jobs decreased or workable hours decreased?
 
This is stuff we've gone over before.
And we're going over it again, so you need to bring out the evidence, or not participate at all.

Nobody's going to accept a placeholder for evidence in the form "I had this argument at an unspecified time in the past, with unspecified individuals, and as I provided them with solid evidence for my position, you too must now accept that I am right"

That's not how discussion works. If you're bored with defending a position over and over again, then keep the evidence somewhere handy to cut and paste as required; Or just quit and let other people be wrong about something.

If you've defended your position previously on this board, you can likely search out your evidence using the board's search features, and copy it or link to it.
But once things have been presented you don't get to conveniently ignore them the next time the topic comes up.
That is exactly what you are doing in this thread.
 
Did you present the information that any unemployment went up as a result or that hours worked dropped as a result? All you did in that thread was say that rising minimum wage would cause an indiscernible increase in the unemployment rate. Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove your case by showing how jobs decreased or workable hours decreased?
1) You're changing topics.

2) If you can't measure it you can't measure it. The problem is that 99% of workers aren't minimum wage and that provides a huge amount of noise for the signal to hide in. We have had one case where the signal didn't have a ton of noise to hide in and it was very clear.
 
Did you present the information that any unemployment went up as a result or that hours worked dropped as a result? All you did in that thread was say that rising minimum wage would cause an indiscernible increase in the unemployment rate. Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove your case by showing how jobs decreased or workable hours decreased?
1) You're changing topics.

2) If you can't measure it you can't measure it. The problem is that 99% of workers aren't minimum wage and that provides a huge amount of noise for the signal to hide in. We have had one case where the signal didn't have a ton of noise to hide in and it was very clear.
You can't extrapolate a trend from a single datum.

Your conclusion is exactly as poorly supported by data as you claim your opponents' positions to be.
 
Did you present the information that any unemployment went up as a result or that hours worked dropped as a result? All you did in that thread was say that rising minimum wage would cause an indiscernible increase in the unemployment rate. Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove your case by showing how jobs decreased or workable hours decreased?
1) You're changing topics.

2) If you can't measure it you can't measure it. The problem is that 99% of workers aren't minimum wage and that provides a huge amount of noise for the signal to hide in. We have had one case where the signal didn't have a ton of noise to hide in and it was very clear.
That is why you'd need to show either min wage jobs or hours worked decreased, otherwise, you are making a claim that isn't supported by anything. Saying it is infalsifiable doesn't work in your favor.
 
Did you present the information that any unemployment went up as a result or that hours worked dropped as a result? All you did in that thread was say that rising minimum wage would cause an indiscernible increase in the unemployment rate. Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove your case by showing how jobs decreased or workable hours decreased?
1) You're changing topics.

2) If you can't measure it you can't measure it. The problem is that 99% of workers aren't minimum wage and that provides a huge amount of noise for the signal to hide in. We have had one case where the signal didn't have a ton of noise to hide in and it was very clear.
You can't extrapolate a trend from a single datum.

Your conclusion is exactly as poorly supported by data as you claim your opponents' positions to be.
QFT.
We are trying to discuss economics with an ideologue who really doesn’t grasp the concepts very well.

In this thread, thus ideologue has made the false claim that the corporate income tax is completely passed onto customers, doubled down on the mistaken claim that the real median wage of workers is the manufacturing wage, repeatedly used the disingenuous excuse of “did it sometime” to refuse to back a claim with evidence, and denied the validity of a number of reputable minimum wage studies based while toting the result of one study as definitive.
 
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