What Do Men Think It Means To Be A Man?

[RavenSky]

Some interesting results

FiveThirtyEight and WNYC partnered with SurveyMonkey for a nationwide survey of 1,615 adults who identify as men.1 We asked respondents to reflect on their ideas of masculinity, workplace culture and intimacy, among other things. The results: A majority of men in the workplace say they haven’t rethought their on-the-job behavior in the wake of #MeToo; a little more than half of men feel it’s at least somewhat important that others see them as masculine; and nearly half of all men say they sometimes or often feel lonely or isolated.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-do-men-think-it-means-to-be-a-man/?ex_cid=538twitter

 

[ruby sparks]

Interesting article. I was slightly misled by the title, since it seems the study was more specific (essentially, 'what has changed in light of metoo'). But article titles often mislead somewhat. And at least this one was explained in the subtitle.

So, while the results made sense to me, it was disappointing that so few man had, apparently, changed their outlook specifically because of metoo, and I'm wondering why that would be the case? Is there, for example, something about the metoo movement which does not (for some reasons) significantly help to advance its aims as regards changing men's outlook?

This is obviously a separate question to asking if it is successful in other ways.

 

[untermensche]

Human morality has been around a long time.

The idea of treating people kindly used to be part of Christianity.

Until the gullible Christians were sold out by greedy "ministers" to become gullible free-market raving lunatic Republicans.

 

[Beer With Straw]

You'd have to "AskMen" https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/9ht3nz/how_many_6yearolds_do_you_think_you_could_fight/

 

[Valjean]

Men are aggressive, 'tough' and callous.
Kindness and compassion are feminine traits.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Killing the spider that's crawling on the inside windshield.

 

[Bronzeage]

I would think that most men don't need to rethink their on the job behavior, because most men are well behaved at work.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I would think that most men don't need to rethink their on the job behavior, because most men are well behaved at work.

Indeed. Yet some seek to define men and "male culture" by the negative that some men do. We shouldn't do that to any gender, race, etc. We shouldn't have to even write that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I thought true masculinity was being able to reach the top shelf.

 

[phands]

I would think that most men don't need to rethink their on the job behavior, because most men are well behaved at work.

Indeed. Yet some seek to define men and "male culture" by the negative that some men do. We shouldn't do that to any gender, race, etc. We shouldn't have to even write that.

This feels like a restatement of the old saw that "All that is necessary for extremists to flourish is for good moderates to acquiesce and do nothing". Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

The former isn't what defines male. The latter isn't what defines black.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I would think that most men don't need to rethink their on the job behavior, because most men are well behaved at work.

So most men in an office... which means not all men in the office. Which means that that a minority of men's behavior is being tolerated for whatever reason.

I think the main problem a man has is his vision. He seems to think if he doesn't do anything wrong, nothing wrong happens. If he does do something marginal... it doesn't mean anything... she doesn't think it is a big deal. Neither of these statements are necessarily true.

Isn't #metoo about having a better awareness of harassment.

 

[phands]

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

The former isn't what defines male. The latter isn't what defines black.

It is one male culture of many. It just happens to be very pervasive, and legislated for.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

The former isn't what defines male. The latter isn't what defines black.

So, you going to walk through the inner cities more often because you managed to disspell a label?

 

[Underseer]

Some interesting results

FiveThirtyEight and WNYC partnered with SurveyMonkey for a nationwide survey of 1,615 adults who identify as men.1 We asked respondents to reflect on their ideas of masculinity, workplace culture and intimacy, among other things. The results: A majority of men in the workplace say they haven’t rethought their on-the-job behavior in the wake of #MeToo; a little more than half of men feel it’s at least somewhat important that others see them as masculine; and nearly half of all men say they sometimes or often feel lonely or isolated.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-do-men-think-it-means-to-be-a-man/?ex_cid=538twitter

When you're not the one being harmed by an injustice, what's the motive in fixing it?

Fixing injustice requires a capacity for basic human empathy and decency, both of which society tells us is unmanly behavior.

None of this changes until men face consequences for assault, abuse, etc. Clearly, appeals to decency can't and won't work.

 

[SimpleDon]

Interesting article. I was slightly misled by the title, since it seems the study was more specific (essentially, 'what has changed in light of metoo'). But article titles often mislead somewhat. And at least this one was explained in the subtitle.

So, while the results made sense to me, it was disappointing that so few men had, apparently, changed their outlook specifically because of metoo, and I'm wondering why that would be the case? Is there, for example, something about the metoo movement which does not (for some reasons) significantly help to advance its aims as regards changing men's outlook?

This is obviously a separate question to asking if it is successful in other ways.

I am always surprised by the attitudes of other men toward women. A lot of the men's negative attitudes toward women have their roots in men's own insecurities, and it is not easy to allay these, especially by mass movement like metoo that relies on public exposure of the bad behavior.

I am willing to risk making men more insecure if this is what it takes for men to realize that this is not about them. That it is about unacceptable behavior and the effect that it has on the women subjected to it. And that it is not that the behavior has just recently become unacceptable, that it has always been unacceptable but hidden, therefore exposing it is the only way to change.

The survey said that 2 in 5 men thought that men were more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than, presumably women, the only other choice. My reaction to this finding quickly swung from #belaboring_the_obvious to what do the other 3 in 5 men believe? [/intentionally obtuse misreading of the survey]

 

[laughing dog]

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

The former isn't what defines male. The latter isn't what defines black.

That is based on the tenuous premise that "_____ culture" defines "_____".

 

[ruby sparks]

Isn't #metoo about having a better awareness of harassment.

That seems to be a big part of it. And I think it has had some effect and I say that despite the backlash element and despite the results of the OP survey.

It's only anecdotal, but in my own social sphere, I have noticed that women are more inclined to say things openly which they may not have before. And I myself have had my eyes opened slightly wider as a result. It appears that the routine, everyday, low level harassment really is far more prevalent than I had appreciated.

 

[ruby sparks]

I am always surprised by the attitudes of other men toward women. A lot of the men's negative attitudes toward women have their roots in men's own insecurities, and it is not easy to allay these, especially by mass movement like metoo that relies on public exposure of the bad behavior.

I am willing to risk making men more insecure if this is what it takes for men to realize that this is not about them. That it is about unacceptable behavior and the effect that it has on the women subjected to it. And that it is not that the behavior has just recently become unacceptable, that it has always been unacceptable but hidden, therefore exposing it is the only way to change.

Yes.

With the caveat that men who are not guilty or who are not part of the problem should not be lumped in with those who are.

 

[Jarhyn]

Even "well behaved" men don't necessarily try to change the macho bullshit misogyny that is everywhere.

True. But that doesn't mean we should call macho bullshit misogyny "male culture" anymore than we should call inner city gangsta violence or single motherhood "black culture".

The former isn't what defines male. The latter isn't what defines black.

That is based on the tenuous premise that "_____ culture" defines "_____".

More, it's based on the assumption that culture (learned expectations from society of what one must do because they fit a gross physiological definition applied to a category) doesn't play an outsized role in determining how one behaves. This is silly; we are all social beings and we learn how to be from those around us. We are socialized to particular behaviors and that socialization comes from our contextual CULTURE. So either men are quite awful to women much of the time because they have been programmed as such by biology, or they are as such because of "male culture" (or a mixture of male and female cultures), or are all of the above (hint, it's all of the above).

Because we can't ethically speak to or adjust the biological component, we are left with the cultural component. The thing is, that makes it everyone's obligation, mostly men, but also some part to women, to reject those stereotypes and allow adjust our expectations to merely be that someone "act ethically" rather than obey any nonsensical just-so expectation with regards to gender