What do you want to do with the little people?

[RVonse]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

Loyalty is a vice, and a very stupid one at that.

If someone deserves your respect, assistance, friendship, support, or care, then loyalty isn't relevant because they should get those things regardless. If they don't, then it's a mistake, because you're giving people something they don't deserve.

Sharing a citizenship with someone is utterly meaningless in terms of your relationship with them. If they're arseholes, then they don't deserve your fellow feelings. And if they aren't, then they do. And if you don't know, you don't know.

And if a group of people are doing something stupid, I am not going to rush to emulate them. Other nationals excluding me or my compatriots from their business or social circles are needlessly reducing the probability of finding the best possible people. Why would I copy their idiocy?

Loyalty, patriotism, and faith are all vices. They all exchange a reasoned decision about who to respect and who to despise with a set of rules that completely fail to take account of what the people are like, how they act, and whether they reciprocate kindness.

Americans are no more worthy of my automatic preference than Australians, Englishmen, Brazilians, or Chinamen.

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

Bilby could care less because he has his high-falutin ivory tower job and is well insulated from the ordinary riff raff.

 

[steve_bank]

The response gets complicated.

The system rewards risk and invention. The system is not designed to create jobs, jobs are a consequence of investment and sacksful business ideas.

Obviously an entrepreneur can not profit on an idea without workers.

In the day Henry Ford ruled his company like a fiefdom. Along came unions.

Unions have gone from collective bargaining on wages and working conditions to demanding a say in how business is run, whiteout any direct responsibility.

Attempots at leveling a system in Russia and China failed. Both collpased and China reinveted itself along wetern lines. A profit incentive and keeping at least some proits. There are we;thy capita;ists in China.

I believe there is something to be said for allowing aggressive competition inside and outside business. It clearly advances humans in terms of general wealth and technology.

In our system if you want to be a a slacker, work during the winter, and spend the summer surfing it is your choice. If want to go to Wall St and try to get rich working 24/7 that is also a choice. The system affords an unprecented choice in history.

Should a surf or ski bum get free medical and housing while others work every day? It really is not a simple question.

For those at the bottom given our collective wealth no kid or adult should go hungry. Kids at low incomes families should not go to school hungry.

People who work everyday in our modern wealth should be able to have decent housing.

The question is how to do it and pay for it without upsetting the system.

Business in Wa is string to open back up. There are local reports in the news that business is having trouble rehiring workers and finding new workers because they are saying they prefer to stay on the expanded unemployment. From the conservative side that is the danger of providing too much support at the bottom.

 

[Trausti]

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

Bilby could care less because he has his high-falutin ivory tower job and is well insulated from the ordinary riff raff.

Kinda like the Covid shutdowns, where those who could work at home or otherwise had secure employment were okay with and promoted the virtue of shutdowns; while those who lost their jobs and wanted to return to work struggled.

 

[bilby]

Because they're Americans. It is truly a bizarre happenstance that the loyalties of Western nations leapfrog over their own people to foreigners while the loyalties of those foreigners remain concentric.

Whose Job Is It Anyway? Co-Ethnic Hiring in New U.S. Ventures

Loyalty is a vice, and a very stupid one at that.

If someone deserves your respect, assistance, friendship, support, or care, then loyalty isn't relevant because they should get those things regardless. If they don't, then it's a mistake, because you're giving people something they don't deserve.

Sharing a citizenship with someone is utterly meaningless in terms of your relationship with them. If they're arseholes, then they don't deserve your fellow feelings. And if they aren't, then they do. And if you don't know, you don't know.

And if a group of people are doing something stupid, I am not going to rush to emulate them. Other nationals excluding me or my compatriots from their business or social circles are needlessly reducing the probability of finding the best possible people. Why would I copy their idiocy?

Loyalty, patriotism, and faith are all vices. They all exchange a reasoned decision about who to respect and who to despise with a set of rules that completely fail to take account of what the people are like, how they act, and whether they reciprocate kindness.

Americans are no more worthy of my automatic preference than Australians, Englishmen, Brazilians, or Chinamen.

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

It's not. It's threatened by ANYONE who'd do it for less. Why the fuck should I care whether that's someone from the next town, or someone from another country?

 

[bilby]

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

Bilby could care less because he has his high-falutin ivory tower job and is well insulated from the ordinary riff raff.

Fuck off. I drive a truck delivering fresh chicken to restaurants and shops.

 

[Trausti]

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

It's not. It's threatened by ANYONE who'd do it for less. Why the fuck should I care whether that's someone from the next town, or someone from another country?

Yes, why should you care about your fellow citizens? Indeed, why should anyone care? Let’s see how quick we can race to the bottom.

 

[Rhea]

Should a surf or ski bum get free medical and housing while others work every day? It really is not a simple question.

Indeed it is not. Think abut this... if the surfer-bum has enough money for rudimentary food, shelter and healthcare, then he doesn’t try to compete with you for the high paying computer job, and you get to live a homeowner lifestyle without competition.

For those at the bottom given our collective wealth no kid or adult should go hungry. Kids at low incomes families should not go to school hungry.

People who work everyday in our modern wealth should be able to have decent housing.

The question is how to do it and pay for it without upsetting the system.

Business in Wa is string to open back up. There are local reports in the news that business is having trouble rehiring workers and finding new workers because they are saying they prefer to stay on the expanded unemployment. From the conservative side that is the danger of providing too much support at the bottom.

Bcause those businesses were not offering a good living, perhaps?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If your problem is with people who don't speak English, you should fucking say so. If you talk about immigrants as a problem, while in fact only having a problem with the subset of immigrants whose English is poor, then you run the serious risk of people assuming that you are just a fucking racist cunt scrambling for a justification for your xenophobia.

If, on the other hand, English fluency is the only hurdle at the US border, it's fairly straightforward to put together a test for potential migrants, and hand out green cards to all who pass the test. That would doubtless have the effect of inspiring lots of foreign people to learn English.

It's probably also worth noting that the USA doesn't have an official language, and that requiring English fluency would be a radical change in national policy for your country. Spanish is very widely spoken in the US, as are German and French. And of course there are a number of indigenous languages that pre-date European settlement. Insisting that Americans must speak English is probably itself racist, and certainly very stupid, both from a practical and an historical perspective.

And note that one can function pretty well with deeply flawed grammar. It doesn't sound right but it's usually adequate for communication.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know what his answer is. I think there's enough of a cultural component that the group you describe doesn't exist.

Right. If you have high contentiousness and work ethic, there’s no reason you’d be limited to minimum wage.

You are saying that everyone who works hard can make above minumum wage? Everyone? Doing what?

This includes people of low intelligence?
This includes people with behavioral conditions that prevent them with competing with those who don’t?
This includes people who cannot move because of a caregiving role?
This includes people with no training.

I see millions of people who do indeed exist in this category.

1 and 2 are mental disabilities. The point was those who are not disabled.

3, they can move the person they're caring for also.

4 Plenty of jobs are above minimum wage and don't need training.

Then there is the contradictory, “no one is limited to minimum wage” side by side with, “we cannot raise the minimum wage”

No contradiction here. If you have a decent work ethic and are not disabled you can rise above minimum wage. The more you raise minimum wage the harder it is for somebody to get that first job, the worse off we are.

So I think you both said pretty clearly that people who cannot make ends meet on minimum wage are just lazy. That all they need is to be conscientious and have a work ethic.

Lazy is the wrong word. It's a need for immediate reward that's the problem.

It doesn;t compute.
There are millions of minimum wage jobs. Are they all unneeded?
There are millions of people working 40+ hours per week in those jobs, do they all have no work ethic?

Neither of you is making any sense.

Try some real statistics.

US labor force: 164 million.
Minimum wage: About 1% of the labor force.

Pretty hard to have millions of minimum wage workers, let alone full time minimum wage workers.

(Beware of the roughly 3% figure that is commonly reported--that's at or below minimum wage--in other words, about 2% are tipped employees. Many of them are making far above minimum wage.)

 

[steve_bank]

K have a problem with immigrants who do not speal English and do not want to. You will not understand until you have to deal with it in the workplace or where you deal with peole.

If you think that is white racist you would be mistaken.

I have known blacks who do not like both Latino and African immigrants who can't speak English well.

When I was in assisted living the head nurse was a guy from Nigeria. He was unable to have a phone conversation with my doctor, and unable to discuss my medication issues with me.

Some come with English, some do not. Seattle is a sanctuary city for illegal immigrants. It has created a permanent underclass where younger generations do not speak English as a first language.

For progressives it is cognitive dissonance. During the pandemic they rant about how Latinos are hit harder, yet the analysis has showed one of the problems is not understanding English. They do not clearly understand what is said on TV and radio.

 

[bilby]

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

It's not. It's threatened by ANYONE who'd do it for less. Why the fuck should I care whether that's someone from the next town, or someone from another country?

Yes, why should you care about your fellow citizens? Indeed, why should anyone care? Let’s see how quick we can race to the bottom.

I care about my fellow humans. I neither know nor care what citizenships they have. Why indeed should I care about complete strangers who happen to share a citizenship with me, more than about other complete strangers? That's my question to you, and it's not rhetorical, I really want to know what you think the reason is for anyone to make this apparently meaningless distinction.

I am competing in the workforce with anyone who can do my job. If it's "stolen" by someone else, why would I give crap the first where that person originated? What, in short, does immigration have to do with competition for jobs? Do you seriously think that it matters whether your pool of competitors increases from three hundred million to three hundred and one million because a million people come to America from another country, but that it doesn't matter if they come from the wombs of existing American citizens none of whom you have ever met? How the FUCK could that distinction possibly have the slightest importance to you?

 

[laughing dog]

You write like someone who’s job is not threatened by migration of those who’d do your job for less.

It's not. It's threatened by ANYONE who'd do it for less. Why the fuck should I care whether that's someone from the next town, or someone from another country?

Yes, why should you care about your fellow citizens? Indeed, why should anyone care? Let’s see how quick we can race to the bottom.

With Trump no longer POTUS, that descent has slowed considerably.

 

[laughing dog]

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

But like Trausti says, who else treats their citizens worse then the US? I can't think of any.

FFS, North Korea, Iran, Myanmar, China and Russia come immediately to mind. Moreover, the prospective asylum-seekers to the USA are visible evidence that there are countries that treat their citizens whose than the USA treats its citizens.

The idea that the US is at that bottom of its treatment of its citizenry is so shockingly counterfactual as to make one wonder about the sanity of those who make such claims.

 

[Trausti]

I don't care if we share a passport; I care if we share ideals and moral values. And patriotism is completely foreign to me.

But like Trausti says, who else treats their citizens worse then the US? I can't think of any.

FFS, North Korea, Iran, Myanmar, China and Russia come immediately to mind. Moreover, the prospective asylum-seekers to the USA are visible evidence that there are countries that treat their citizens whose than the USA treats its citizens.

The idea that the US is at that bottom of its treatment of its citizenry is so shockingly counterfactual as to make one wonder about the sanity of those who make such claims.

Pretty sure all those countries give preferential treatment to their own citizens as opposed to foreigners. Sad that those countries are better than the US on that.

 

[laughing dog]

FFS, North Korea, Iran, Myanmar, China and Russia come immediately to mind. Moreover, the prospective asylum-seekers to the USA are visible evidence that there are countries that treat their citizens whose than the USA treats its citizens.

The idea that the US is at that bottom of its treatment of its citizenry is so shockingly counterfactual as to make one wonder about the sanity of those who make such claims.

Pretty sure all those countries give preferential treatment to their own citizens as opposed to foreigners.

Shift those goalposts. Of course, their preferential treatment goes for mistreatment as well. And why do you suppose there is a net migration out of those countries to the US? Hmmmm.

 

[Elixir]

Pretty sure all those countries give preferential treatment to their own citizens as opposed to foreigners. Sad that those countries are better than the US on that.

I'm sure it could be arranged to take away your children and lock you up in a cage for a few years, since you're jealous.
Or maybe you'd like a job in a meat-packing plant in Nebraska? You can pay taxes and not have to vote - a benefit to all of us!

 

[steve_bank]

Pretty sure all those countries give preferential treatment to their own citizens as opposed to foreigners. Sad that those countries are better than the US on that.

I'm sure it could be arranged to take away your children and lock you up in a cage for a few years, since you're jealous.
Or maybe you'd like a job in a meat-packing plant in Nebraska? You can pay taxes and not have to vote - a benefit to all of us!

Standard clap trap rhetoric.

The issue at the border is that the people cross illegally. They are 'little people' legally, technically they have no rights. Here in Seattle, a sanctuary city, progressives' get worked up because illegal immigrants are stuck as little people, and they are.

The reason they are stuck where they are is that they came here illegibly. In the PC media long ago undocumented immigrants, inferring a normalcy and legality, replacing the term illegal's immigrants.

The root cause of the chaos at the border is our immigration policy, or the lack thereof. And that is the fault of congress, not border agencies.

 

[RVonse]

Pretty sure all those countries give preferential treatment to their own citizens as opposed to foreigners. Sad that those countries are better than the US on that.

I'm sure it could be arranged to take away your children and lock you up in a cage for a few years, since you're jealous.
Or maybe you'd like a job in a meat-packing plant in Nebraska? You can pay taxes and not have to vote - a benefit to all of us!

Standard clap trap rhetoric.

The issue at the border is that the people cross illegally. They are 'little people' legally, technically they have no rights. Here in Seattle, a sanctuary city, progressives' get worked up because illegal immigrants are stuck as little people, and they are.

The reason they are stuck where they are is that they came here illegibly. In the PC media long ago undocumented immigrants, inferring a normalcy and legality, replacing the term illegal's immigrants.

The root cause of the chaos at the border is our immigration policy, or the lack thereof. And that is the fault of congress, not border agencies.

Not all of congress. Just the Democrats.

 

[laughing dog]

Standard clap trap rhetoric.

The issue at the border is that the people cross illegally. They are 'little people' legally, technically they have no rights. Here in Seattle, a sanctuary city, progressives' get worked up because illegal immigrants are stuck as little people, and they are.

The reason they are stuck where they are is that they came here illegibly. In the PC media long ago undocumented immigrants, inferring a normalcy and legality, replacing the term illegal's immigrants.

The root cause of the chaos at the border is our immigration policy, or the lack thereof. And that is the fault of congress, not border agencies.

Not all of congress. Just the Democrats.

Riiight because then the Republicans held Congress and the Presidency, there was no problem.

BTW, people seeking asylum are not crossing the border illegally.

 

[Elixir]

The reason they are stuck where they are is that they came here illegibly.

Such bullshit. You don't have to torture people for that. And most of them attempted to LEGALLY apply for asylum, a practice requires first setting foot in this country, and one that is well engraved in international law.
El Cheato did everything he could to exacerbate the conditions in Central America that caused those people to flee in the first place. Watch what happens if Republinazis fail to prevent Biden from helping those countries out.

Republicans held Congress and the Presidency, there was no problem

Right, just a NATIONAL CARAVAN EMERGENCY!!!
And the Trumpsuckers ate that shit right up.