What? No 'This week in trans' thread about Passport X?

[Keith&Co.]

There is no rational reason to consider these cases "disorders" any more than you would call blue eyes or freckles "disorders."

Freckles are a disorder, just a minor one. They mess with your skin's adaption to sun exposure.

If that's the case, then being a white person is a disorder!

It was, actually. If we'd stayed in Africa, it would have been selected against.

 

[laughing dog]

My goodness. If using unapproved terminology makes a passport field "incoherent", the apocalypse must be on us.

Where do you get the idea that the problem is "unapproved terminology"?

What makes it incoherent is that the field is called 'sex', but it now may mean either sex or gender identity and there is no way to know which from looking at it.

Are you under the impression that one of the goals of the US State Department is to be "coherent" to hysterical foreigners?

 

[Metaphor]

My goodness. If using unapproved terminology makes a passport field "incoherent", the apocalypse must be on us.

Where do you get the idea that the problem is "unapproved terminology"?

What makes it incoherent is that the field is called 'sex', but it now may mean either sex or gender identity and there is no way to know which from looking at it.

Are you under the impression that one of the goals of the US State Department is to be "coherent" to hysterical foreigners?

No.

 

[Metaphor]

My goodness. If using unapproved terminology makes a passport field "incoherent", the apocalypse must be on us.

Where do you get the idea that the problem is "unapproved terminology"?

What makes it incoherent is that the field is called 'sex', but it now may mean either sex or gender identity and there is no way to know which from looking at it.

What makes you think it uses gender identity?

Because the press release in the OP uses only the term 'gender' and does not use the term 'sex' a single time.

The field is called 'sex'. The State Dept. is finally getting on-board with modern science in recognizing that some people have chromosome patterns and sex traits that are not accurately described under the old binary system.

Sex is binary in mammals.

Not that the State Dept. was being pro-active. It had to be dragged into the 21st century by a citizen who was unable to get a passport due to their intersex genetic traits and successfully sued the government.

And what definition of gender are you using now?

Before you said a person's gender was the thoughts in their head.

'Gender identity' is a thought in your head, and I believe that's what the State department is using for some people instead of sex.

Now you're saying a person's gender is the thoughts in other people's heads.

'Sex role' and 'gender presentation' is a thought in other people's heads.

Can a person have more than one gender? If I think I'm female and someone else thinks I'm male and a third person thinks I'm androgynous and concludes I must be intersex, does that mean I'm all three?

According to gender ideologists, a person can have any number of gender identities simultaneously or quickly in succession, including multiple within a day.

 

[Arctish]

Sex is binary in mammals.

You keep repeating this like a mantra.

It's true that reproduction in mammals requires a male and a female. That doesn't mean every mammal is either a male or a female.

I realize you have a lot invested in categorizing people into one of two sexes but the only way you can do it is to ignore reality.

 

[Metaphor]

Sex is binary in mammals.

You keep repeating this like a mantra.

It needs to be repeated because people seem to forget. And, unlike the mantra 'trans women are women', mine has the advantage of being true.

It's true that reproduction in mammals requires a male and a female. That doesn't mean every mammal is either a male or a female.

Nearly every mammal organism is either male or female - they are either of the sex that produces small, motile gametes or of the sex that produces large, sessile gametes. But some have differences of sex development that, for passport purposes at least - an 'X' as their sex makes sense.

I realize you have a lot invested in categorizing people into one of two sexes but the only way you can do it is to ignore reality.

I don't have to ignore reality to understand that mammals have two and only two sexes. In fact, that is acknowledging reality.

And I also would have to actively repel reality to pretend gender is sex.

 

[Arctish]

I don't pretend gender is sex.

I don't pretend gender is binary, and I don't pretend sex is either. That's where we differ.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't pretend gender is sex.

I don't pretend gender is binary, and I don't pretend sex is either. That's where we differ.

The US State department is pretending gender and sex are interchangeable.

I have never pretended 'gender' is binary. I don't know how many times I can say gender can be anything, because a gender identity is a thought in your head.

Sex is binary in mammals and it cannot change after birth. That isn't a pretense--it's fact.

 

[fromderinside]

So while we're spitting hairs maybe we can simplify what we mean by sex and gender. Seems that both apply to the range of sexual genetic outcomes and the range of personal beliefs about one's gender. A happy merging subjective and objective for once?

I'm all in favor of neutral implications of sex and gender.

Take the topic off the table, adjust laws accordingly? OK?

 

[laughing dog]

My goodness. If using unapproved terminology makes a passport field "incoherent", the apocalypse must be on us.

Where do you get the idea that the problem is "unapproved terminology"?

What makes it incoherent is that the field is called 'sex', but it now may mean either sex or gender identity and there is no way to know which from looking at it.

What makes you think it uses gender identity?

Because the press release in the OP uses only the term 'gender' and does not use the term 'sex' a single time.

Let me get this straight - a press release is causing these boring conniption of yours? You do realize the State Department has the legal right to release any statement without your prior approval. You do realize you are under no legal or moral compunction to read them.

 

[Toni]

I think Metaphor want pictures of the person's genitals in their passport too.

I think Metaphor wants everyone and everything to fall into neat little pre-approved by Metaphor boxes so that he can feel better. I understand that for some people, ambiguity or outside of pre-determined boxes creates some anxiety and discomfort but other people, ideas and things do not exist to preserve our comfort.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm curious why genitals matter. I mean, yes, for doctors, that'll matter. But drivers license? Why is a gender needed? Passport? Are you John Smith... the male? Job application? Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense, but for normal (Non-genital related work)... why does it matter?

It doesn't matter if you are a boy or a girl... you can do anything... but for the meantime, please fill out all of these forms detailing your genitals.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense,

But for Porn, if you show up with an 11-inch zucchini, a desire to be filmed using it, and can pass the screen test, they're not going to ask for your license to see if it says M, F, or X.

A few years back, the porn HR department would have wanted to see it, to know if you got paid on the M or F pay scale. And to know if they could pay you porn money directly or if your husband needed to know about the porn money. But that's at least nominally supposed to have expired, thanx RBG.

So even pornjob scenario doesn't justify that block on the card....

 

[Elixir]

Seems like right wing Kancel Kultcher.
They want people who don’t fit into pre-ordained sex/gender categories to get the X.
Pretty blatant IMHO.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense,

But for Porn, if you show up with an 11-inch zucchini, a desire to be filmed using it, and can pass the screen test, they're not going to ask for your license to see if it says M, F, or X.

A few years back, the porn HR department would have wanted to see it, to know if you got paid on the M or F pay scale. And to know if they could pay you porn money directly or if your husband needed to know about the porn money. But that's at least nominally supposed to have expired, thanx RBG.

So even pornjob scenario doesn't justify that block on the card....

In theory I suppose, but if they just blindly accepted people and ended up with a basket full of zucchini, there will be a little extra cost to the film due to script changes.

 

[Toni]

Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense,

But for Porn, if you show up with an 11-inch zucchini, a desire to be filmed using it, and can pass the screen test, they're not going to ask for your license to see if it says M, F, or X.

A few years back, the porn HR department would have wanted to see it, to know if you got paid on the M or F pay scale. And to know if they could pay you porn money directly or if your husband needed to know about the porn money. But that's at least nominally supposed to have expired, thanx RBG.

So even pornjob scenario doesn't justify that block on the card....

In theory I suppose, but if they just blindly accepted people and ended up with a basket full of zucchini, there will be a little extra cost to the film due to script changes.

Not necessarily.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense,

But for Porn, if you show up with an 11-inch zucchini, a desire to be filmed using it, and can pass the screen test, they're not going to ask for your license to see if it says M, F, or X.

A few years back, the porn HR department would have wanted to see it, to know if you got paid on the M or F pay scale. And to know if they could pay you porn money directly or if your husband needed to know about the porn money. But that's at least nominally supposed to have expired, thanx RBG.

So even pornjob scenario doesn't justify that block on the card....

In theory I suppose, but if they just blindly accepted people and ended up with a basket full of zucchini, there will be a little extra cost to the film due to script changes.

Not necessarily.

Okay, marketing then.

 

[SimpleDon]

Presumably, the "sex" of a passport holder is in the passport to aid in the identification of the holder and is not meant as a biological imperative. The customs agent is not going to test the DNA of all of the persons entering the country nor are they going to check the genitals of everyone. They are going to look at the person in front of them and use their own judgment as to the sex of that person. So in the context of the passport and its uses the sex designation is the gender identity of the person.

If a passport holder was born a male but transitioned to a female, for the purposes of identification it is more accurate to call the person a female. Since the passport is by definition going to be presented to a large number of people who might not have our command of the English language to understand the fine line between the meaning of the difference between "sex" and "gender," I am sure that what they understand about the sex of the passport holder is much closer to the gender identity of the person and not the biological identity.

 

[Jarhyn]

Well, yes, for porn, it'd make sense,

But for Porn, if you show up with an 11-inch zucchini, a desire to be filmed using it, and can pass the screen test, they're not going to ask for your license to see if it says M, F, or X.

A few years back, the porn HR department would have wanted to see it, to know if you got paid on the M or F pay scale. And to know if they could pay you porn money directly or if your husband needed to know about the porn money. But that's at least nominally supposed to have expired, thanx RBG.

So even pornjob scenario doesn't justify that block on the card....

In theory I suppose, but if they just blindly accepted people and ended up with a basket full of zucchini, there will be a little extra cost to the film due to script changes.

Not necessarily.

Okay, marketing then.

Also, not necessarily...

 

[Elixir]

Presumably, the "sex" of a passport holder is in the passport to aid in the identification of the holder and is not meant as a biological imperative. The customs agent is not going to test the DNA of all of the persons entering the country nor are they going to check the genitals of everyone. They are going to look at the person in front of them and use their own judgment as to the sex of that person. So in the context of the passport and its uses the sex designation is the gender identity of the person.

If a passport holder was born a male but transitioned to a female, for the purposes of identification it is more accurate to call the person a female. Since the passport is by definition going to be presented to a large number of people who might not have our command of the English language to understand the fine line between the meaning of the difference between "sex" and "gender," I am sure that what they understand about the sex of the passport holder is much closer to the gender identity of the person and not the biological identity.

Obviously the solution is to inspect the genitalia of anyone going anywhere, ever. Even domestic travel should require it.
Why should domestic travelers be allowed to fake their sex or gender while international travelers have to check a box?