What should Israel do?

[arkirk]

I remember in the early 60's when I was in junior college writing about the cycle of violence in Palestine. That was 52 years ago. If the Israeli goal was peace, and they are as superior as they say they are, why is it that with all their superior force of arms, they have not attained it? The answer is simple...peace cannot be attained by force of arms. Historically, all conquests except for the very latest ones (like Israel) end up in reversals.

I feel Israel's entire existence has been based on military conquest and violence. Will they ever be smart and brave enough to stop depending on force to impose their will on the area? The succession of conquests in Palestine is longer than all our arms. What happens to people when they enter the territory? They become vicious and unscrupulous or....they end up like Rachel Corrie...just another blade of grass under the Israeli lawnmower. That is a sign of incipient fanatical religion.

Israel puts the lie to the notion that technological advancement somehow has a civilizing effect on people. It just doesn't work with Zionists...and has had no chance to work with the Palestinians.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

As the Koheleth said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

What people say and what people do will always be two different things. A wise person will always make this distinction. They may be identical pictures in the end but only one is important.

I don't think her ladyship Golda was much different than those on the other side of the divide on this score. Maybe the times just had her in a trap and still has her successors. She certainly rubbed shoulders with terrorists on her side.

 

[Kharakov]

Well, better hope you have the vaccine. Because if you didn't get it yet, you aren't going to last when the plague is unleashed. After tech has progressed to a certain point... see ya.

 

[crispy]

Hamas putting a bunch of civilians on military targets doesn't mean Israel is aiming at civilians.

Well if the civilians are hostages, why isnt Israel treating it as a hostage situation instead?

1) They would not be able to.

2) The civilians are generally there of their own free will. So long as Hamas gets them on the roof fast enough the place doesn't get hit. The tactic works.

1) Maybe you can tell me why they dont have any other choice than to blow up the hostages? Usually in hostage situations you negotiate, and part of their demands are stopping/reversing the settlements on the west bank. Maybe that would be a good start?

2) You said yourself that it was Hamas that put civilians there - do you have any evidence that civilians actually willingly want to stand on top of a building they know is likely to be blown away? Or that Israel will restrict itself when it sees the rocket launching gear, some Hamas people and some civilians standing next to it? Truth is IDF doesnt give a rats ass about that as you can see from the +300 civilian casualties, but you might have evidence for something else?

 

[angelo]

They have actually! I lost a dear friend in the Bali bombing outrage in 2002. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

We all have losses to the evils of religion in general throughout the history of man. It is easy to start and maintain a feud over religion. If the truth be told, most people on the surface of the planet are more concerned with living than they are with which god is the right god. Regardless of religion, the vast majority of human activity must of necessity focus on surviving, being well fed, clothed, housed, etc. The majority of average persons' (of any faith) time is spent on maintaining life. No matter what a person's religion might be, they spend most of their lives performing the functions necessary to stay alive. In other words, there is a secular life that must be lived by all humans. That is true in Gaza, in Israel, and indeed in your country wherever you live...also whenever you may have lived in the past.

That was true in Bali on the day your friend was killed there. I have a dear friend (an Armenian) who lives in Tehran. Now it is obvious that I have no use for the tenets of the Muslim religion, but I do care about my friend who is forced by his obligations to his family to live there. He has to keep himself and his family alive day by day. This is the average condition of the average person about everywhere on earth.

This characterizing a whole people by the aberrant members of a society is at the root of our problems. Palestinians are human beings. They had NOTHING TO DO with the death of your friend in Bali. We need a secular political approach to the violence we see in ANY SOCIETY, not kneejerk tea cup flinging emotional responses. You have no right to characterize a Palestinian child as an enemy.

There's a more than even chance that Palestinian child is going to be brought up to hate the Jew and their American backers! He/she will be taught that it's a honourable death to die defending their religion. Honestly, when was the last time a Jew blew himself up and the innocent bystanders around him in an act of terrorism?

 

[angelo]

I remember in the early 60's when I was in junior college writing about the cycle of violence in Palestine. That was 52 years ago. If the Israeli goal was peace, and they are as superior as they say they are, why is it that with all their superior force of arms, they have not attained it? The answer is simple...peace cannot be attained by force of arms. Historically, all conquests except for the very latest ones (like Israel) end up in reversals.

I feel Israel's entire existence has been based on military conquest and violence. Will they ever be smart and brave enough to stop depending on force to impose their will on the area? The succession of conquests in Palestine is longer than all our arms. What happens to people when they enter the territory? They become vicious and unscrupulous or....they end up like Rachel Corrie...just another blade of grass under the Israeli lawnmower. That is a sign of incipient fanatical religion.

Israel puts the lie to the notion that technological advancement somehow has a civilizing effect on people. It just doesn't work with Zionists...and has had no chance to work with the Palestinians.

This is the stupidest post I have ever seen and it shows you to be at best naive. The moment Israel stops the show of force is the day they will be pushed into the Mediterranean Sea.

 

[arkirk]

I remember in the early 60's when I was in junior college writing about the cycle of violence in Palestine. That was 52 years ago. If the Israeli goal was peace, and they are as superior as they say they are, why is it that with all their superior force of arms, they have not attained it? The answer is simple...peace cannot be attained by force of arms. Historically, all conquests except for the very latest ones (like Israel) end up in reversals.

I feel Israel's entire existence has been based on military conquest and violence. Will they ever be smart and brave enough to stop depending on force to impose their will on the area? The succession of conquests in Palestine is longer than all our arms. What happens to people when they enter the territory? They become vicious and unscrupulous or....they end up like Rachel Corrie...just another blade of grass under the Israeli lawnmower. That is a sign of incipient fanatical religion.

Israel puts the lie to the notion that technological advancement somehow has a civilizing effect on people. It just doesn't work with Zionists...and has had no chance to work with the Palestinians.

This is the stupidest post I have ever seen and it shows you to be at best naive. The moment Israel stops the show of force is the day they will be pushed into the Mediterranean Sea.

Your post shows that you have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked. Imagine that! You calling ME naïve. Do you really believe that bullshit? :laughing-smiley-014

 

[angelo]

It seems you're the one hoodwinked by the left and the loopy Greens. Go to your local library one day and inform yourself properly about the situation that Israelis find themselves in been surrounded by people who will never accept them or democracy in general.

 

[untermensche]

It seems you're the one hoodwinked by the left and the loopy Greens. Go to your local library one day and inform yourself properly about the situation that Israelis find themselves in been surrounded by people who will never accept them or democracy in general.

Israel has carried out a brutal oppression of the Palestinians for decades.

Nobody forced them to do this. And the real tell that the Israeli's are not sincere is that they have slowly stolen land that doesn't rightfully belong to them the whole time. If they weren't constantly stealing land it may be possible to believe they do what they do only for security. But since they constantly steal land it is clear that security is not the real issue with the Israelis here. They want the land and they want the Palestinians gone and they will make life miserable for the Palestinians until they go.

And to not condemn Israeli oppression is to not have any sense of morality, or a feeling that the Palestinians are humans with the same human rights as anybody.

 

[angelo]

will make life miserable for the Palestinians until they go.

Is that why Israel gives the Palestinians billions in aid each and every year? Who supplies their power, who supplies them medical assistance, food and other goods? On the other hand, Who supplies Hamas?

 

[angelo]

While Hamas is launching dozens of rockets a day at Israel's cities and towns, and as the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are crushing the terrorist infrastructures in the Gaza Strip, when it comes to infrastructure and trade relations, an anomaly can be spotted. Israel Electric Corp. (IEC) continues to supply electricity to the Gaza Strip residents and its institutions, while Mekorot [the national water company of Israel] goes on supplying the Strip with drinking water, complementing the local supply. At the same time, the traffic of trucks loaded with goods, passing from Israel into the Strip through the Kerem Shalom border crossing, is routinely carried on.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/sec...e-idf-humanitarian-crisis.html##ixzz380YGhLJH

 

[Arctish]

Israel has carried out a brutal oppression of the Palestinians for decades.

Nobody forced them to do this. And the real tell that the Israeli's are not sincere is that they have slowly stolen land that doesn't rightfully belong to them the whole time. If they weren't constantly stealing land it may be possible to believe they do what they do only for security. But since they constantly steal land it is clear that security is not the real issue with the Israelis here. They want the land and they want the Palestinians gone and they will make life miserable for the Palestinians until they go.

^ Realizing this was a turning point for me. Prior to the 1970s I accepted the Israeli line about how they had to be aggressive in order to protect themselves. Somewhere in the mid-1970s it started to become clear that what the Israelis were doing to the Palestinians was the same thing the Cossacks did to the Ukrainian Jews a generation or two before. I think it was watching Fiddler on the Roof that got me thinking about it.

Anyway, by the time the 1980s rolled around and West Bank settlement building really ramped up, I finally realized Israel's aggressive takeover of Palestinian land had nothing to do with keeping Jews safe. If Israel wanted to keep its Jewish citizens safe, it would keep them close and sheltered. It certainly wouldn't plant them on stolen land surrounded by the recently dispossessed, and have them driving around like fools.

 

[Arctish]

So far I've resisted the urge to Godwin the thread, but what the heck, I'm going for it.

While Hamas is launching dozens of rockets a day at Israel's cities and towns, and as the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are crushing the terrorist infrastructures in the Gaza Strip, when it comes to infrastructure and trade relations, an anomaly can be spotted. Israel Electric Corp. (IEC) continues to supply electricity to the Gaza Strip residents and its institutions, while Mekorot [the national water company of Israel] goes on supplying the Strip with drinking water, complementing the local supply. At the same time, the traffic of trucks loaded with goods, passing from Israel into the Strip through the Kerem Shalom border crossing, is routinely carried on.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/sec...e-idf-humanitarian-crisis.html##ixzz380YGhLJH

I'm pretty sure the Nazis kept the water and electric service going in the Warsaw Ghetto, and I know they let in the allotted amount of food. So if your point is that Israelis are no worse than Nazis, well I should hope so!

 

[angelo]

Anti Semitism seems to be alive and well, at least the few posters to this thread who wouldn't know a terrorist if he/she bit him/her on the arse. Just curiosity, but how many of you support a centralist political party? I'm willing to bet that most are supporters of left wing ideology. And don't come up with the line that it makes no difference to your defence of terrorism because it most cases it surely does.
Here you have a people that want another people dead, and they will never accept any other scenario. These people have strong support from left wing not jobs. It's as simple as that!

 

[Arctish]

Here you have a people that want another people dead, and they will never accept any other scenario. These people have strong support from left wing not jobs. It's as simple as that!

You mean like this guy?

“If I were ruling, we would have reconciled [with Israel] long ago,” he says. “Israel cannot kill all the Palestinians and Palestinians cannot kill all the Israelis. So we have to have dialogue and make peace.”

 

[Kharakov]

Anti Semitism seems to be alive and well

Nope, it's anti-ethnicism that is alive in well in a majority of the world's population. People do not like seeing one group beat on another group, unless the one group is abusing the other. Now, if you look at the tide... who has been abusing who?

And ethnicism, whether it be from Nazis, Jews, Arabs, Crackers, or NWA, can be perceived as wrong (in a non-comedic environment).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) They have been carrying out attacks on Israel since 48. Some temporary calms in this does not change the pattern.

<edit>
You are a supporter of oppression. Despicable.

Of course, attack me because you can't attack the facts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In reality, such a brutal regime as Netanyahu's Israel would incur heavy sanctions if it were not located so close to Suez Canal and all the oil. Over time, with the help of our government, Israel has developed an external support system that maintains its arsenals (which include Weapons of Mass Destruction (200 nuclear weapons). The actions of Netanyahu at the U.N. are characteristic of a narcissistic dictator willing to commit any violence (up to and possibly including nuclear war) in pursuit of his cause which appears to be Zionism.

The proximity to the Suez Canal has nothing to do with how the world sees Israel.

He's willing to commit violence in the pursuit of survival.

What should Israel do? Get rid of Netanyahu. Surrender its nuclear weapons and become a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and make peace with the Palestinians. It needs to tear down the hundreds of miles of walls. It needs to work out a livable arrangement with the Palestinians including rebuilding of infrastructure destroyed in years or terrorist attacks. The solution could be either one nation or two. That becomes not so important once peace is established.

<Throws arkirk in the cage of a hungry lion> Work it out.

It is pointless to keep parroting the Netanyahu idea that "Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State," In the end, power structures such as his will collapse and Netanyahu is actually a gross liability to the future existence of Israel as anything but a failed state. It will have failed because it did not attempt to be a legitimate state...ever in its entire existence. It appears bent on accumulating more liabilities against itself every day. I would love to see peace in the area and I know the Arab factions may well be seeking revenge for the atrocities heaped on the Palestinian people. It will take perhaps a generation or so for this to die down even after Israel either relents or collapses. It is up to the Israelis to make the moves that will insure some kind of future for themselves in the area. Netanyahu is simply not the right kind of leadership that will ever broker peace.

The only peace you would get is the peace of death. It would die down because there would be no Jews left, not because the Arabs were reasonable.

And the violence would continue, just directed elsewhere. The radical jihadists want to fight the infidels and will do so whether or not any given conflict exists.

Israel serves as a very useful lightning rod.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I remember in the early 60's when I was in junior college writing about the cycle of violence in Palestine. That was 52 years ago. If the Israeli goal was peace, and they are as superior as they say they are, why is it that with all their superior force of arms, they have not attained it? The answer is simple...peace cannot be attained by force of arms. Historically, all conquests except for the very latest ones (like Israel) end up in reversals.

In other words, you know the settlements and the supposed occupation are not the cause.

And you're falling for the liberal fallacy that good talk can always bring peace.

I feel Israel's entire existence has been based on military conquest and violence. Will they ever be smart and brave enough to stop depending on force to impose their will on the area? The succession of conquests in Palestine is longer than all our arms. What happens to people when they enter the territory? They become vicious and unscrupulous or....they end up like Rachel Corrie...just another blade of grass under the Israeli lawnmower. That is a sign of incipient fanatical religion.

They're not dumb enough to commit suicide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas putting a bunch of civilians on military targets doesn't mean Israel is aiming at civilians.

Well if the civilians are hostages, why isnt Israel treating it as a hostage situation instead?

1) They would not be able to.

2) The civilians are generally there of their own free will. So long as Hamas gets them on the roof fast enough the place doesn't get hit. The tactic works.

1) Maybe you can tell me why they dont have any other choice than to blow up the hostages? Usually in hostage situations you negotiate, and part of their demands are stopping/reversing the settlements on the west bank. Maybe that would be a good start?

Often hostage situations are resolved by assault. They normally can only be resolved by talking if the hostage takers aren't prepared for a siege.

2) You said yourself that it was Hamas that put civilians there - do you have any evidence that civilians actually willingly want to stand on top of a building they know is likely to be blown away? Or that Israel will restrict itself when it sees the rocket launching gear, some Hamas people and some civilians standing next to it? Truth is IDF doesnt give a rats ass about that as you can see from the +300 civilian casualties, but you might have evidence for something else?

1) Hamas has a *LOT* of power. Defying their call isn't the best idea.

2) If the people get there in time the bomb doesn't drop. The tactic generally works.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the stupidest post I have ever seen and it shows you to be at best naive. The moment Israel stops the show of force is the day they will be pushed into the Mediterranean Sea.

Your post shows that you have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked. Imagine that! You calling ME naïve. Do you really believe that bullshit? :laughing-smiley-014

You have shown yourself to be naive.