What should Israel do?

[Jayjay]

Severe oppression contributes to this fixed state of mind for the Jihadists. What has contributed to yours? Who oppressed you? Have Muslims hurt you personally?

Try a little reality. I'm talking about a pattern that has existed for more than 1000 years. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Islam does not permit peace with non-subjugated non-Muslims. The average Muslim on the street doesn't adhere to this but the fundamentalists do.

You do realize that the same applies to fundamentalist Jews? They think they are God's chosen people and there won't be peace until they have driven away or subjugated everyone else in their promised land.

 

[Arctish]

The Christian Science Monitor has published an interesting article about how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is discussed in the UK.

The British MPs seem more frank and less filtered and certainly less one-sided than those across the Atlantic.

Whether one agrees with their views or not, there’s more focus on issues like “disproportionate response,” humanitarian law, UN safe zones, water and sewer damage, and possible war crimes in Gaza.

There’s “no truck,” as former British foreign secretary Jack Straw puts it, with terror or Hamas (see below). But there is less willingness by the Brits to take at face value the specter of Hamas as a rationale for any and all behavior by Tel Aviv.

I wish our elected officials were so forthright and plain-spoken. Most of them hide behind sound-bites and scripted statements designed to offend the least number of potential donors.

 

[angelo]

He's telling the truth about jihadists. Their religion does not permit peace with non-Muslims. "Peace" is a temporary state to build up your strength to continue the war.

Severe oppression contributes to this fixed state of mind for the Jihadists. What has contributed to yours? Who oppressed you? Have Muslims hurt you personally?

They have actually! I lost a dear friend in the Bali bombing outrage in 2002. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

 

[angelo]

The Christian Science Monitor has published an interesting article about how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is discussed in the UK.

The British MPs seem more frank and less filtered and certainly less one-sided than those across the Atlantic.

Whether one agrees with their views or not, there’s more focus on issues like “disproportionate response,” humanitarian law, UN safe zones, water and sewer damage, and possible war crimes in Gaza.

There’s “no truck,” as former British foreign secretary Jack Straw puts it, with terror or Hamas (see below). But there is less willingness by the Brits to take at face value the specter of Hamas as a rationale for any and all behavior by Tel Aviv.

I wish our elected officials were so forthright and plain-spoken. Most of them hide behind sound-bites and scripted statements designed to offend the least number of potential donors.

Sounds like many EU countries including Britain are bending over to the onslaught of islam in their regions. No matter that they have experienced first hand the terrorist attacks by the islamics. Many in Denmark are still cowered by the cartoons fiasco and turn a blind eye to muslim extremists in their mist.

 

[crispy]

Severe oppression contributes to this fixed state of mind for the Jihadists. What has contributed to yours? Who oppressed you? Have Muslims hurt you personally?

Try a little reality. I'm talking about a pattern that has existed for more than 1000 years. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Islam does not permit peace with non-subjugated non-Muslims. The average Muslim on the street doesn't adhere to this but the fundamentalists do.

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And aiming at civilians is never valid even if your cause is just.

Sorry, which side were you talking about again?

Hamas putting a bunch of civilians on military targets doesn't mean Israel is aiming at civilians.

Well if the civilians are hostages, why isnt Israel treating it as a hostage situation instead?

 

[crispy]

The Christian Science Monitor has published an interesting article about how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is discussed in the UK.



I wish our elected officials were so forthright and plain-spoken. Most of them hide behind sound-bites and scripted statements designed to offend the least number of potential donors.

Sounds like many EU countries including Britain are bending over to the onslaught of islam in their regions. No matter that they have experienced first hand the terrorist attacks by the islamics. Many in Denmark are still cowered by the cartoons fiasco and turn a blind eye to muslim extremists in their mist.

Did you know it was possible to both dislike jewish extremist AND muslim extremist at the same time?

 

[arkirk]

Severe oppression contributes to this fixed state of mind for the Jihadists. What has contributed to yours? Who oppressed you? Have Muslims hurt you personally?

They have actually! I lost a dear friend in the Bali bombing outrage in 2002. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

We all have losses to the evils of religion in general throughout the history of man. It is easy to start and maintain a feud over religion. If the truth be told, most people on the surface of the planet are more concerned with living than they are with which god is the right god. Regardless of religion, the vast majority of human activity must of necessity focus on surviving, being well fed, clothed, housed, etc. The majority of average persons' (of any faith) time is spent on maintaining life. No matter what a person's religion might be, they spend most of their lives performing the functions necessary to stay alive. In other words, there is a secular life that must be lived by all humans. That is true in Gaza, in Israel, and indeed in your country wherever you live...also whenever you may have lived in the past.

That was true in Bali on the day your friend was killed there. I have a dear friend (an Armenian) who lives in Tehran. Now it is obvious that I have no use for the tenets of the Muslim religion, but I do care about my friend who is forced by his obligations to his family to live there. He has to keep himself and his family alive day by day. This is the average condition of the average person about everywhere on earth.

This characterizing a whole people by the aberrant members of a society is at the root of our problems. Palestinians are human beings. They had NOTHING TO DO with the death of your friend in Bali. We need a secular political approach to the violence we see in ANY SOCIETY, not kneejerk tea cup flinging emotional responses. You have no right to characterize a Palestinian child as an enemy.

 

[Derec]

As the Koheleth said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

 

[arkirk]

As the Koheleth said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

Do you accept what Golda is saying here? I heard her say "These people are savages." She was not a person who was about to forgive anybody. Her government only "forgave" with bombs.

 

[Harry Bosch]

As the Koheleth said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

Do you accept what Golda is saying here? I heard her say "These people are savages." She was not a person who was about to forgive anybody. Her government only "forgave" with bombs.

I do believe that peace won't be possible until the Palestinians are willing to want a better life for their children. Israel would do well in my opinion to offer some help (eased living conditions, road map for soverign Pal state) for Pals in the West Bank who are for peace.

 

[arkirk]

Do you accept what Golda is saying here? I heard her say "These people are savages." She was not a person who was about to forgive anybody. Her government only "forgave" with bombs.

I do believe that peace won't be possible until the Palestinians are willing to want a better life for their children. Israel would do well in my opinion to offer some help (eased living conditions, road map for soverign Pal state) for Pals in the West Bank who are for peace.

You mean like the Bantustans the apartheid South African government set up to keep their racket going?

 

[Harry Bosch]

I do believe that peace won't be possible until the Palestinians are willing to want a better life for their children. Israel would do well in my opinion to offer some help (eased living conditions, road map for soverign Pal state) for Pals in the West Bank who are for peace.

You mean like the Bantustans the apartheid South African government set up to keep their racket going?

So, are you saying that Israel shouldn't withdraw from certain Palestinian areas?? Quite simply, I would recommend that Israel ease up on Pals wanting to join the 21 century. But I wouldn't give Hamas any quarter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Try a little reality. I'm talking about a pattern that has existed for more than 1000 years. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Islam does not permit peace with non-subjugated non-Muslims. The average Muslim on the street doesn't adhere to this but the fundamentalists do.

How funny. You talk about some deluded half-baked racist nonsense as a little reality.

I don't see a rebuttal. Islam does not permit peace with non-subjugated non-Muslims.

The reality is the Palestinians are an incredibly peaceful people.

They have tried to take over other countries, not just Israel.

They carried out very little violence even as the Israelis conducted a brutal and illegal occupation for about 10 years. More than you can expect of any people. Then a tiny fraction of the Palestinians began to carry out violent resistance (the oppressor calls this terrorism) which has lasted since.

1) They have been carrying out attacks on Israel since 48. Some temporary calms in this does not change the pattern.

2) Attacked aimed at civilians are terrorism, period.

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Try a little reality. I'm talking about a pattern that has existed for more than 1000 years. It has nothing to do with the Jews. Islam does not permit peace with non-subjugated non-Muslims. The average Muslim on the street doesn't adhere to this but the fundamentalists do.

You do realize that the same applies to fundamentalist Jews? They think they are God's chosen people and there won't be peace until they have driven away or subjugated everyone else in their promised land.

That's not the same thing as not being allowed to have peace with a nation that is not of your religion.

With Islam it's not just a promised land, it's the whole world.

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Hamas putting a bunch of civilians on military targets doesn't mean Israel is aiming at civilians.

Well if the civilians are hostages, why isnt Israel treating it as a hostage situation instead?

1) They would not be able to.

2) The civilians are generally there of their own free will. So long as Hamas gets them on the roof fast enough the place doesn't get hit. The tactic works.

 

[untermensche]

I do believe that peace won't be possible until the Palestinians are willing to want a better life for their children. Israel would do well in my opinion to offer some help (eased living conditions, road map for soverign Pal state) for Pals in the West Bank who are for peace.

Israeli state policy is that the Palestinians should leave. And until they do they will be treated like dogs.

Just because Israel treats the Palestinians like dogs it doesn't make them so.

They are human beings exactly like all other human beings. All they want is peace to raise their children. But they face Israeli oppression everyday, and these periodic murderous attacks.

What needs to change is Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, not the Palestinians.

 

[untermensche]

1) They have been carrying out attacks on Israel since 48. Some temporary calms in this does not change the pattern.

<edit>

You are a supporter of oppression. Despicable.

 

[ryan]

The rain of rockets is unbearable.

In what sense is the current "rain of rockets" "unbearable" in Israel? What exactly are you "bearing" steve_bnk that is so terrible you need to tell the world about?

We've all "borne" in our lifetimes Steve, Syrian and Libyan civil wars, genocide in Rwanda, Yugoslavian civil war, unrest in Ukraine, violence and terrorism in the Basque region and Northern Ireland, narcoterrorism in South America, civil war in Congo, Liberia, Angola, Sierra Leone, etc. USA invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, rise of the Taliban, Kurdish insurgencies in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, etc. Blah, blah, blah...

Why do people get so worked up either way about this pissy pathetic little squabble in the Middle East and make up excuses about how terrible and important it is compared with the rest of the shit going on in the world?

Americans seem to feel some responsibility for what's going on in that region because their country's general position is to support Israel.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I do believe that peace won't be possible until the Palestinians are willing to want a better life for their children. Israel would do well in my opinion to offer some help (eased living conditions, road map for soverign Pal state) for Pals in the West Bank who are for peace.

Israeli state policy is that the Palestinians should leave. And until they do they will be treated like dogs.

Just because Israel treats the Palestinians like dogs it doesn't make them so.

They are human beings exactly like all other human beings. All they want is peace to raise their children. But they face Israeli oppression everyday, and these periodic murderous attacks.

What needs to change is Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, not the Palestinians.

Okay, what is Hamas's stated policy? Would you agree that both sides must moderate and compromise?

 

[untermensche]

Israeli state policy is that the Palestinians should leave. And until they do they will be treated like dogs.

Just because Israel treats the Palestinians like dogs it doesn't make them so.

They are human beings exactly like all other human beings. All they want is peace to raise their children. But they face Israeli oppression everyday, and these periodic murderous attacks.

What needs to change is Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, not the Palestinians.

Okay, what is Hamas's stated policy? Would you agree that both sides must moderate and compromise?

Why do we care?

Hamas is the natural human reaction to oppression.

What we need to care about is the unending oppression and theft.

 

[arkirk]

With Capitalism, it also is the whole world too. I view Israel as a client state of the U.S. carved out of the Arab region by violence. The reason there is an Israel today is that those who eventually constituted the government of the area were the most violent and unrelenting faction in the area. It exists and is allowed its inhumane policies toward the Palestinians in exchange for supporting U. S. and European interests in the area. Israel, along with Egypt guarantee the oil interests in this strategic location. If they had not been such a brutal force in liberating lands from the Arabs, perhaps it could have worked. I feel that the Israel government in its repeated attacks on the Arabs, specifically in Gaza and the west bank has settled into established patterns of violence to maintain their domination of their takings and expand them. They regard the current incursion into Gaza as one Israeli official said as "cutting the grass."

In reality, such a brutal regime as Netanyahu's Israel would incur heavy sanctions if it were not located so close to Suez Canal and all the oil. Over time, with the help of our government, Israel has developed an external support system that maintains its arsenals (which include Weapons of Mass Destruction (200 nuclear weapons). The actions of Netanyahu at the U.N. are characteristic of a narcissistic dictator willing to commit any violence (up to and possibly including nuclear war) in pursuit of his cause which appears to be Zionism.

What should Israel do? Get rid of Netanyahu. Surrender its nuclear weapons and become a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and make peace with the Palestinians. It needs to tear down the hundreds of miles of walls. It needs to work out a livable arrangement with the Palestinians including rebuilding of infrastructure destroyed in years or terrorist attacks. The solution could be either one nation or two. That becomes not so important once peace is established.

Ah but all parties need to educate themselves or be educated in sensitivity to human needs. None of that will happen as long as Netanyahu and his party are in power. None of that will happen without major torsion being applied from the outside. The Netanyahu propaganda hate machine has been at work in that country and ours for a long time.

It is pointless to keep parroting the Netanyahu idea that "Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish State," In the end, power structures such as his will collapse and Netanyahu is actually a gross liability to the future existence of Israel as anything but a failed state. It will have failed because it did not attempt to be a legitimate state...ever in its entire existence. It appears bent on accumulating more liabilities against itself every day. I would love to see peace in the area and I know the Arab factions may well be seeking revenge for the atrocities heaped on the Palestinian people. It will take perhaps a generation or so for this to die down even after Israel either relents or collapses. It is up to the Israelis to make the moves that will insure some kind of future for themselves in the area. Netanyahu is simply not the right kind of leadership that will ever broker peace.

 

[Arctish]

As the Koheleth said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

Years ago, on a previous incarnation of this board, I read a post that illustrated just how much Zionist apologetics resembles the language of abusers. As I recall, the post was several paragraphs long and included links to articles on domestic violence and psychology papers. It cited specific behaviors such as blame-shifting, self-aggrandizement and narcissism, isolating victims, unrealistic demands which, if unmet, were used to justify further violence, etc and cited examples of Zionist behavior and speech that paralleled it.

The picture and quote of Golda Meir you posted is all of that pared down into a cutting point.

"I forgive you for making me angry, but I'll never forgive you for making me take it out on the kids".


ETA: Do you think this family hated anyone more than they loved their kids?