angelo
Deleted
The Jews can prove a historical connection to this piece of land that stretches right back to a so called prophet who is now doubted he existed, namely Moses and his successor Aaron.
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What should Israel do?
- Thread starter steve_bnk
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Arctish
Centimillionaire
So can Palestinians whose ancestors converted to a different Abrahamic faith but still remained in Palestine. In fact, the historical connection between those folks and the land is a heck of a lot stronger than the connection of folks whose ancestors moved to Europe over 1,000 years ago. Why is their historical connection being dismissed?
Who gives a rat's ass about their historical connections to a place which have been lost in mythology? It adds nothing to the moral legitimacy of their cause.
They're both living there now and neither is leaving, That's the factor they need to deal with.
They're both living there now and neither is leaving, That's the factor they need to deal with.
angelo
Deleted
An overall view by Wiki on the Palestinian problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
Arctish
Centimillionaire
They are dealing with it. They're just not dealing with it in a nice, friendly way.
The OP asks "What should Israel do"? Several suggestions have been offered:
1) Rule with an Iron Fist. This is the one currently being employed by Israel. That main advantage of this approach is that it gets Zionists what they want - Eretz Yisrael, with all its water, farmland, minerals, etc. - at very little cost to themselves. The US supplies the military hardware and monetary backing, and very few Israelis are killed in the fighting. The biggest drawback is that in order to maintain such a rule it is necessary for Israelis to be tyrants. They have to be ruthless in quashing rebellion and dissent, even though being ruthless costs them allies abroad.
2) Follow the Golden Rule. This is what the UN is aiming for in it's resolutions about human rights and the rights of refugees. The main advantage of this approach is that it has a proven track record. Every peaceful border in the world remains quiet due to the reciprocity and respect between neighbors, and their willingness to work out differences by treaty and compromise. The main disadvantage is that this approach takes a huge amount of time and effort. If you're looking for a quick fix, this ain't it.
3) Resolve Internal Conflicts That Hamper Its Ability To Resolve External Conflicts. This IMO was the most intelligent and helpful suggestion in the entire thread. Israel is still without a Constitution 60+ years after its founding because the Israelis can't agree on what Israel is, what they want it to be, or who has a right to live within its borders. They don't even recognize "Israeli" as a valid designation on their own identification forms. The wrangling between the secular, Orthodox, Hasidim, European, Middle Eastern, and African Jews has broader repercussions than just a messy Parliamentary system. Without a final decision on what it means to be an Israeli, or what it means to have a Jewish State, they're having a heck of a time trying to figure out what to do with the growing number of Israelis who aren't Jewish, let alone the non-Jewish non-Israelis under their rule.
angelo
Deleted
Your #2 resolution wouldn't work. We're dealing with islam not some xtian enclave.,
Arctish
Centimillionaire
The Ottoman Empire: How Jews Lived Under The Turks
For a long time, Christians treated the Jews much worse than the Muslims did. They also treated each other horribly. So let's not pretend Christians have anything to be proud of here. Any group of people can be vicious, pompous, fatuous, bigoted assholes. The history of the Middle East proves that pretty conclusively. It also proves that the best way to establish peace is to make the vicious, pompous, fatuous, bigoted assholes stfu while the adults are working out something everyone can live with.
angelo
Deleted
Since the end of the Ottoman Empire, islam has been on a steady decline that's only increasing as time rolls on. Could you possibly name me one Arab country that's not in some kind of turmoil today?
I know you will probably say Saudi Arabia, or Qatar. But these places are ruled by a royal family with an iron fist and sharia law.
I know you will probably say Saudi Arabia, or Qatar. But these places are ruled by a royal family with an iron fist and sharia law.
Derec
Contributor
You don't need to go back to the mythical past of Moses, Aaron and the Exodus. The kingdoms of Judea and Israel in the first half of the first millennium BCE are very well attested historically as is mostly non-independent Jewish polity after the sack of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.
Derec
Contributor
But Israelite kingdoms were there before.
Derec
Contributor
It's pretty much the definition of it when Israel is the only country whose right to defend itself is being challenged.
And Israel agrees that Palestinians deserve a sovereign nation. But it can't happen while Palestinians choose terrorism over peace. In 2005 Israel disengaged from the Gaza Strip, ended military occupation and left the settlements. Mind you, Israel left the settlements intact, able to be put to use by Palestinians, but instead they destroyed them. And that's not all, but Gazans started a terrorist campaign of shooting rockets and mortars into Israel and elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them into the abyss.
Obviously they chose wrongly. Had they chosen "life and good" rather than "death and evil" (to paraphrase Deuteronomy 30) they would have had peace, prosperity and their own state by now.
US is rightly blocking one-sided anti-Israel resolutions by the UN.
Why? Israel is our ally.
You are evading my question. Why is it wrong for US to be allied with Israel while it's apparently ok for many countries to be allied with the Palestinians?
Besides, US has not blocked the UN from taking any productive action.
No, the situation exists solely because Palestinian terrorists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) are persisting in their campaign of terror.
Israel is "worthy to exist" by any conceivable metric. A "Hamastan" in Gaza on the other hand has shown over and over again that it is not "worthy to exist" and the sooner Gazans get that into their thick skulls and overthrow the terrorist scum ruling them the better for everyone involved.
No, Hamas has no right to engage in terrorist activities. And what you call "oppression" is there solely because of Hamas terrorism. Stop the rockets, stop the infiltrations into Israel and Gazans will be able to enjoy peace and prosperity - but not until then.
You are confusing the cause and effect. It's like saying that the body has developed cancer to fight off the chemotherapy. Hamas is the cancer growing in Gaza.
Wikipedia is highly biased on Israel/Palestine issues. Looking up data is fine but that's about it.
arkirk
Veteran Member
Wikipedia is highly biased on Israel/Palestine issues? I don't think so. You are biased, and have been biased for a long time. What gives us reason to not demand an end to this horror? Is admitting it is a horror financed from America biased? The non recognition of Palestinians is the silliest thing I see you continue to support. The people in Gaza are in a prison, not a country, because the U.S. is not an honest broker of peace. F-16's are American made planes being used on a civilian population. Israel is committing still more war crimes. Yes and you call Wikipedia "biased?"
Israel is a product of ethnic cleansing. What is happening in Gaza is dangerously close to qualifying as genocide. The ecology of Gaza is so ruined that it is in danger of not being able to support the population in any way and there are about 1.5 million people there to die in large numbers if we do not back off our support of Netanyahu's phoney government. These people (Palestinians) are human beings. They need their rights restored and their lands restored.
The kind of life you take for granted every day in your life, like peaceful living, like a roof over your head, like not seeing your neighbors blown apart by bombs, Gazans do not know any of that. Your notion that Israel is some kind of innocent actor is absurd.
Just because you share their biases doesn't make them not biased.
A simple test of the problem: Years ago I noted an article on the subject failed to link to one UN resolution even though it linked to all the others in the article. That resolution is their basis for the right of return and is conveniently ignored in the issue--they hide it by referring to a just peace in accordance with it without mentioning what it really is.
My edit was reverted. I can't imagine something less controversial than adding a correct link--I didn't change a single character of the displayed text. It's not the story they want to tell, though.
untermensche
Contributor
Nobody has the right to oppress people until they retaliate and then use the retaliation as an excuse to increase the oppression.
When you oppress people and steal from them they are allowed to fight back.
Israel has the right to self defense but it doesn't have the right to resort to force because it refuses to make peace so it can expand illegal settlements.
No they don't. Israel has never acknowledged that the Palestinians have a right to a sovereign nation. And they continually steal land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians, and have stolen land without stop for the last 50 years.
It is the WHOLE world against the US and Israel. How is that "one-sided"? It is a consensus.
The cause of Hamas and violent retaliation is decades of Israeli oppression.
How is it you can't see this oppression? It is right in front of you.
Why aren't the Palestinians allowed to fight their oppressor?
1) The attacks started before the oppression.
2) The primary oppression comes from the Arabs yet they aren't attacking the Arabs.
Look who is making peace and who isn't. Hamas has made it clear that they will not agree to peace so long as Israel exists. The best they have offered--and then gone back on--is 67 borders in exchange for a temporary peace, to be broken as soon as convenient.
In 48 Israel fully expected the Palestinians to form a state. Instead the Arabs seized the land so they couldn't.
Some of us aren't so easily fooled.
And aiming at civilians is never valid even if your cause is just.
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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It is a shame you weren't around to give that advice to the USAAF and RAF Bomber Command during WWII. The Nazis would have loved you for it.
angelo
Deleted
Of course you are aware that Israel supplies electricity, gas, aid, hospitals, and a myriad of other essentials to Gaza? If you class that as being criminal then perhaps Israel should stop it.
What do the Israelis get in return? Oh yes, rockets fired indiscriminately at Israeli territory and it's cities.
angelo
Deleted
To your eyes Israel can do nothing right. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Remove your blinkers and have a fresh look at the situation.