What would you pay for an extra three years?

[Swammerdami]

(This will seem like an interesting matter for another forum but bear with me.)

Suppose a special genie appears to you. (Don't fight the hypothetical:) This genie can snap her fingers and know the date of your death, and snap her fingers again and delay your death for three years. What would you pay that genie to give you those extra three years? (No, she won't tell you the age of death.) It seems an interesting (and difficult) challenge to analyze this. The following brief ideas doubtless overlook important points.

A millionaire would offer up several hundred thousand dollars, I should think, (and multi-millionaires much more) but what about a 25-year old working man taking home $50,000 per year? Would he offer 10% of his salary, month-by-month, to have the genie's wish for his whole life? Make it 20 or 25% to cover his whole family? You do the math. Considering all the benefits to employers and public as well, I think a state or country might spend up to 10% of its GDP to make genie's wish come true for everyone. For Tennessee, that would be $38 billion per year, or almost $5600 annually per resident.

Actually the money spent by the state to improve life expectancy (and to improve it by 3.6 years, not just 3 years) would NOT be given to the genie to abscond to some other Paradise where he would squander it on hookers and blow. ^{(Or rather, she would[n't] squander it on a warddrobe, 99,000 purses (... and gigolos?) since we've stipulated a female genie.)} It would be spent inside the State of Tennessee, on health care, mental health, education, access to nutrition, and whatever. (And MUCH less than $38 billion need be spent: that was just an estimate of what people might PAY for the improved lives.)

The question occurred to me when I read this article in L.A. Times. I offer a single example to give the gist of the linked story:

In 1980, Tennessee and Connecticut had rather similar life expectancies (Conn's was 1.3 years more). According to the article, Connecticut has pursued liberal policies, while Tennessee has become increasingly right-wing. Tennessee's LifeExpect improved 2.2 years over the 37-year period from 1980-2017. But Connecticut's improved 5.8 years over the same period: The gap has increased by 3.6 years. ​

So Tennessee's policies have been cheating its residents out of 3.6 years of life (or so it might seem), and all the benefits that go with that. Is this a big deal? Have Tennesseans been voting against their own best interests?

 

[ruby sparks]

Have Tennesseans been voting against their own best interests?

Interesting. Just not enough data to answer. There could be any number of variables.

But personally, I would not be entirely surprised if the answer was yes. I have a proto-theory that many Americans have been conned out of realising that more progressive/libral policies would benefit most of them more.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Specifically, me, +three years? No thanks. I have so many health issues AND genie-wish stories always punish the greedy, it'd turn out to be 3 years with a terminal illness, and the doctors telling my kid, "Frankly, we have no idea why he's still alive."

But for a boost of life expectancy, for me and those around me? I'd donate for that.

 

[Politesse]

I can't see myself wanting an entire extra three years in the first place. What on earth for? If however felt I needed a few extra months to wrap up my affairs (assuming it was set to occur soon) then I would see no great issue in paying off my remaining debts and offering the rest to the jinn in exchange for those few months. It would probably even be willing to do the math for me.

Is this how jinni raise funds to be able to afford the wishes of other shmucks?

 

[WAB]

I'd pay half of what I have to let the genie shave three years OFF my life. I'm only 56, but I've had enough, and it's endlessly frustrating to me that I can't even catch a fucking cold.

 

[zorq]

Ask me what it would cost to preserve the life and happiness of the people I love and I will pay more handsomely than for myself.

My mother passed far too prematurely. I would have given all of my meager treasures to keep her around for 3 more years.

Even now, I don't live my life for myself as much as I live it for the people who love and need me.

I suspect that if you frame your question the right way you will get both liberals and conservatives to admit almost unanimously to a willingness to sacrifice their wealth for health. Just remember that some people aren't very egocentric.

 

[Bronzeage]

This premise reminds me of a conversation from about 20 years ago. There was(and may still be) a surgical clinic in New York which specialized in cosmetic surgical enhancements. besides the common face lifts and breast augmentation, they also offered penis augmentation. Their website offered very explicit photos of their various procedures. If anyone ever wanted to desexualize genitalia, this was the way to do it.

The penis enlargement procedure didn't really make it any longer. A few ligaments in the groin were cut and reattached so that more penis was outside the body. A client could expect about an inch more flaccid penis, with no promised made for an erect penis. A link to this web site was being passed around by my coworkers, and this led to the conversation I referenced in the opening sentence.

My basic opinion was that it seemed a lot of money and discomfort, just to get a penis that hung an inch closer to the ground. One of my coworkers pointed out that if you only had two inches to begin with, another inch might be a pretty big deal.

So, the appeal of three more years would depend mostly on how many I already had under my belt, so to speak.

 

[Rhea]

Interesting question - the hypothetical and the practical yield two different answers, for me.


For the Tenn/Conn case, I think paying more to improve life expectancy would be good.

BUT.... quality of life matters

And for me personally the risk of getting my wish and spending that 3 xtra years with Dementia is not at all desired. It is so hard on the family to care for dementia. I would pay money to avoid that for my kids or husband.


Indeed, maybe Conn wins the 3 years by having more nursing home spots more easily accessible for additional life-extending care for people with dementia instead of having them die at home. Not actually a good bargain, in myy book.

 

[rousseau]

So Tennessee's policies have been cheating its residents out of 3.6 years of life (or so it might seem), and all the benefits that go with that. Is this a big deal? Have Tennesseans been voting against their own best interests?

Tennessee's policies haven't been cheating its residents out of 3.6 years of life, it's political and economic trajectory has through the vehicle of policy.

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/i...ur-minds-brain-drain-across-the-united-states

We find that brain drain (and brain gain) states tend to fall along regional lines, although there are a number of exceptions to this general rule. Overall, dynamic states along the Boston-Washington corridor (Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and Maryland), on the West Coast (California, Oregon, Washington), and in other parts of the country (Illinois, Texas, Colorado, Arizona, and Hawaii) are the best at retaining and attracting highly-educated adults. Meanwhile, states in northern New England (New Hampshire and Vermont), the Rust Belt (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Missouri), the Plains (North and South Dakota and Iowa), and the Southeast (West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana), as well as Delaware, fare the worst on both counts.

It's an important distinction because unless Tennessee finds an electorate that's willing to support liberal policies, the trajectory will continue, and so to will the policies. I think at some point you need to move away from the idea that this change was a conscious process, and not a result of underlying, historical forces. Forces that are causing more and more polarization across the U.S.

 

[Tigers!]

I'd pay half of what I have to let the genie shave three years OFF my life. I'm only 56, but I've had enough, and it's endlessly frustrating to me that I can't even catch a fucking cold.

If you live in the USA and then in Arizona how have you avoided getting Covid-19? From Aust. it seems like almost everyone then has had or will get Covid.

 

[WAB]

I'd pay half of what I have to let the genie shave three years OFF my life. I'm only 56, but I've had enough, and it's endlessly frustrating to me that I can't even catch a fucking cold.

If you live in the USA and then in Arizona how have you avoided getting Covid-19? From Aust. it seems like almost everyone then has had or will get Covid.

I live in a small resort town. I also have no life and don't see a lot of people.

 

[southernhybrid]

My mother used to tell me that she never wanted to live past 90. Now she is almost 95 and on hospice with late stage Alzheimers Disease. I wish she had gotten her wish and had died shortly before her 90th birthday, right as the first signs of dementia were creeping in. I, like my mother don't want to live to be 90, so I wouldn't want 3 more years. My mother never had any bad habits, never was obese, and never had any previous health problems.

But, if this is a political question, imo, the reason why life expectancy is shorter in southern states is probably because they have high rates of obesity in the nation, while some of the states in the northeast have the lowest rates. Southerners tend not to walk nearly as much as northerners do. Obesity is a huge risk factor for many serious chronic diseases such as hypertension, Type II diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and even dementia according to some studies. While there are some rare folks, like my husband's late grandmother, who do live very long lives while obese, most don't. I think it was her kind and gentle disposition, as well as her loving family, that may have added those extra years to her life. Still, she was fairly dependent for many years prior to her death at age 95.

Is obesity related to poverty? Sure, sometimes is it, but not always. It's actually a very complicated disease that also has a genetic component in some cases. So, if we could find a way to keep people from developing bad eating habits, that would be money well spent. Perhaps teaching young children the important of earring health foods, combined with vigorous exercise would help. That would be worth the extra money.

But, longevity doesn't necessarily equate with quality of life, so imo as a retired RN, who primarily cared for older adults, it's a pretty stupid idea for the genie to ask people if they want to pay for 3 more years of life. Those who are frightened of death might like those extra three years, but for the rest of us, be careful what you ask for. I'm soon to be 71. I'm healthy and happy, but I will let nature take its course and refuse the extra three years. I don't want to end up like my mother, but despite doing everything right, I can't be sure that I won't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My mother used to tell me that she never wanted to live past 90. Now she is almost 95 and on hospice with late stage Alzheimers Disease. I wish she had gotten her wish and had died shortly before her 90th birthday, right as the first signs of dementia were creeping in. I, like my mother don't want to live to be 90, so I wouldn't want 3 more years. My mother never had any bad habits, never was obese, and never had any previous health problems.

I don't think age is an automatic factor here. My FIL lived into his 90s, active until a stroke that took his mind.

What I would like is a system where you can register for euthanasia if you lose your mind.

 

[Jayjay]

The increase in average life expectancy between Tennessee and Connectivut isn't necessarily just adding three more miserable years at the end, it could have been due to less sudden deaths at younger age. So perhaps the folks in Tennessee did get shafted, at least those who died "prematurely". But maybe the ones still alive are happier with their conservative policies?

 

[skepticalbip]

I'd pay half of what I have to let the genie shave three years OFF my life. I'm only 56, but I've had enough, and it's endlessly frustrating to me that I can't even catch a fucking cold.

If you live in the USA and then in Arizona how have you avoided getting Covid-19? From Aust. it seems like almost everyone then has had or will get Covid.

A very little mathematics would be be helpful. The population of the U.S. is a bit under 330 million. The total known cases including those who have recovered is about 5.1 million. So about 1.5% if the population has contacted covid or about 98.5% or 325 million citizens haven't contacted it.

 

[southernhybrid]

My mother used to tell me that she never wanted to live past 90. Now she is almost 95 and on hospice with late stage Alzheimers Disease. I wish she had gotten her wish and had died shortly before her 90th birthday, right as the first signs of dementia were creeping in. I, like my mother don't want to live to be 90, so I wouldn't want 3 more years. My mother never had any bad habits, never was obese, and never had any previous health problems.

I don't think age is an automatic factor here. My FIL lived into his 90s, active until a stroke that took his mind.

What I would like is a system where you can register for euthanasia if you lose your mind.

Sure, there are always exceptions, but statistically the chance of getting dementia increases drastically once you reach 85. I agree that it would be nice to have the option to choose euthanasia while you are cognitively intact, to be exercised at a later date when you are no longer cognitively intact. The only problem is that doesn't allow prople to change their minds, which some might consider a moral dilemma.

I don't know how common it is now, but about 10 or so years ago, the daughter of one of my former patients allowed her to die of dehydration. The woman was in late stage dementia, and was on hospice. At least at the time, it wasn't considered neglectful to allow someone in that condition to die that way.

Dehydration is the most pleasant way to die if your are suffering from a terminal disease. No fluid backed up in the lungs allows for a pleasant death. I've watched one of my other patients die that way. It was the most peaceful death I've ever witnessed. She had dementia and had lost her ability to swallow. Since her Advanced Directives stated no feeding tubes or artificial hydration, she was permitted to die that way. But I'm straying off topic. Please don't force fluids on me if I end up like my mother.

Anyway, no genie is offering us the extra three years, and if one did, I'll take my chances and let nature take its course.

I'm not a conservative, but I'm not convinced that liberal policies necessary improve life expectancy.

All states could do more to teach school age children about nutrition without adding much additional costs to their budgets. And, if the minimum wage was raised by the federal government, and then tied to the rate of inflation, that would help eliminate a lot of poverty. UHC would also help, assuming that people were willing and able to change some of their negative lifestyle habits. Better eating and more exercise would likely add some extra years of life for most.

Many states have drastically cut back on public health services. Public health departments usually offer vaccines, childhood medical exams, family planning, STD assessment and treatment etc. These things add to the health of the local population too. I have no idea if blue states have kept their pubic health programs intact, but as a former public health nurse, I know that many red states have cut back on these very important services. That could also be a reason for shorter life expectancies. I think it's more complicated than simply making assumptions about red and blue states.

I grew up in a blue state that has always had a lot of graft and corruption, an extremely high cost of living and unaffordable tax rates for the average person. So, I don't think we can always make assumptions based on the politics of a given state. The state I grew up in also has a fairly high percentage of very wealthy residents. Wealthy people usually have much better access to health care and educational opportunities.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My mother used to tell me that she never wanted to live past 90. Now she is almost 95 and on hospice with late stage Alzheimers Disease. I wish she had gotten her wish and had died shortly before her 90th birthday, right as the first signs of dementia were creeping in. I, like my mother don't want to live to be 90, so I wouldn't want 3 more years. My mother never had any bad habits, never was obese, and never had any previous health problems.

I don't think age is an automatic factor here. My FIL lived into his 90s, active until a stroke that took his mind.

What I would like is a system where you can register for euthanasia if you lose your mind.

Sure, there are always exceptions, but statistically the chance of getting dementia increases drastically once you reach 85. I agree that it would be nice to have the option to choose euthanasia while you are cognitively intact, to be exercised at a later date when you are no longer cognitively intact. The only problem is that doesn't allow prople to change their minds, which some might consider a moral dilemma.

So long as you have a mind to change it would be changeable.

I don't know how common it is now, but about 10 or so years ago, the daughter of one of my former patients allowed her to die of dehydration. The woman was in late stage dementia, and was on hospice. At least at the time, it wasn't considered neglectful to allow someone in that condition to die that way.

Dehydration is the most pleasant way to die if your are suffering from a terminal disease. No fluid backed up in the lungs allows for a pleasant death. I've watched one of my other patients die that way. It was the most peaceful death I've ever witnessed. She had dementia and had lost her ability to swallow. Since her Advanced Directives stated no feeding tubes or artificial hydration, she was permitted to die that way. But I'm straying off topic. Please don't force fluids on me if I end up like my mother.

I wouldn't say it's the most pleasant, but probably the most pleasant a patient who can't take more active measures has available.

Anyway, no genie is offering us the extra three years, and if one did, I'll take my chances and let nature take its course.

I strongly suspect the three extra years are decent years, not end of life years.

I'm not a conservative, but I'm not convinced that liberal policies necessary improve life expectancy.

Reducing the stupid causes of death will increase life expectancy.

All states could do more to teach school age children about nutrition without adding much additional costs to their budgets. And, if the minimum wage was raised by the federal government, and then tied to the rate of inflation, that would help eliminate a lot of poverty. UHC would also help, assuming that people were willing and able to change some of their negative lifestyle habits. Better eating and more exercise would likely add some extra years of life for most.

Nutrition education I agree on. Raising the minimum wage doesn't help much, though, because the real cause of poverty is a lack of hours worked, not the wage at which they work.

Many states have drastically cut back on public health services. Public health departments usually offer vaccines, childhood medical exams, family planning, STD assessment and treatment etc. These things add to the health of the local population too. I have no idea if blue states have kept their pubic health programs intact, but as a former public health nurse, I know that many red states have cut back on these very important services. That could also be a reason for shorter life expectancies. I think it's more complicated than simply making assumptions about red and blue states.

Yup, a big factor.

 

[Elixir]

In what respect would those 3 years be "extra"? Suppose I was going to get hit by a truck and killed tomorrow. Am I guaranteed that I won't instead get hit by the truck and hopelessly maimed, left in an apparent vegetative state but actually fully aware in incredible pain and unable to communicate for another three years?
I'd prefer to have one year taken away - 2020 would do nicely.