What's the Harmful Effect of Christianity?

[Lion IRC]

And who said anything about gay sex? Are you so steeped in your love of punishing sin that you don’t even realize HIV is spread through heterosexual sex, too

Oh you mean like the husband and wife example I just used?

And Christian religion doesn't think condoms are evil. It thinks adultery is evil.
You think cheating adulterous men can tell their wife, "don't worry, it's ok because I used a condom when I had sex with the injecting drug user or HIV positive gay man" ?

You don't even read replies.
Like I said before, this is just another atheist ventruiloquism performance 'winning' an argument by talking to yourself.
Rhea holding a Rhea sock puppet on one hand and Lion IRC sock puppet on the other.
Lame.
/thread

 

[steve_bank]

As l;ong as people think yjey are the voice of a god that guides them and that they have a moral authority derived from an imaginary being there will be abusem condlict, and intolerance.

As to all life being sacred, once a bay hits the world how about universal health care?

Abortion and all life is sacred is a chap no risk position. It allows you to gather a sense of moral superiority about you, self aggrandizement. Selective morality.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Atheists and anger

Greta Christina's 2007 blog on the subject packs as much power today as it did when it was new.

If you want anger and rage listen to some of the Evangelical radio and TV preachers. Some is pure hate speech.

In the facility I am in a preacher runs a weekly bible group. He screams and rants at the evil atheists in league with Satan who are out to get him and his fellow Christians. Every Thursday night you can hear him all around the floor.

If there were more Christians who tried to practice more of what Jesus preached- do good to those who persecuted them, to love their enemies, to resist not evil- well, the world would probably be a better place, wouldn't it?

Alas, there are all too many who preach hatred, all the while claiming they do it in the name of love.

I see these types of arguments often - even from atheists. Hell, I've used them myself, but over time I've come to see them for what they are. Put simply, such an argument gives Christians too much of an out. It implies that Christians that are closer to acting in an acceptable way, a more loving way, is more Christian, or a better Christian, than the bigoted, dominionist holier than thou types. This is how infected our culture has become with the idea that Christian = good person.

It's just not so. There's no group of Christians that are more moral or ethical than the rest of the people in the world - in fact, they often can not even measure up to a secular morality in that respect. Asking Christians to live up to the example Jesus set for them is nonsensical because Jesus himself often did not act in a moral manner. Yes, there are good things he said, just as there are awful xenophobic, bigoted, selfish things he said. There as many versions of Jesus as there are Christians. To most evangelicals, Jesus is a white, gun-toting, conservative American that hates anyone not just like him that claims exceptionalism for his religion. Every single subset of the Christian religion has a general concept of their own Jesus, and every single member of that subgroup has further clarified that Jesus in their own mind.

Our culture has ceded moral authority to this group and this has to stop. There is no ideal Christian. Christians are merely another group of humans that behave no better than anyone else, but we have given them the power to dictate what is right and what is wrong, with disastrous consequences. It's even more dangerous now because Christians have entwined their religion with our politics, which has had an awful outcome and driven most reasonable, thinking people of good character away from their religion. What is now left is mostly a refuge for bigotry of various stripes, and justification for their behavior. Behavior which has also gotten worse because of the way Christianity is hemorrhaging members. Those left are desperate to hold onto their power and influence. So much so that they have formed an alliance with a despicable, immoral, bigoted liar of a politician that will reward their loyalty with the power they seek.

I'm sure some of them are good people. *wink* But those that are left are living with blinders on, as we see in full glorious detail in this thread and others. They may as well put a bag on their head and dance in traffic for all the good they do. They empower the rest of these Christians and their deplorable behavior, while they run around trying to point out all the good Christians do, even as they stand in front of all the bad conduct so you cannot get a clear view.

 

[Rhea]

Oh you mean like the husband and wife example I just used?

You don't even read replies.

I was referring the the adultery where you made the sex as sinful as you could by making it with a gay man or an IV drug user. Rather than another woman.

But fair enough, you are right, since there was a wife my answer was ambiguous.

I withdraw that response and replace it with an observation that you view the use of the condom as wholly used for sin, unlike perhaps a man and his first wife who got HIV from a needle stick at her work as a nurse, and then he tries to protect his second wife after he is widowed and remarried.

But you like the sin, because then you can ignore the christian push to make people reject condoms in africa (and everywhere)

Like I said before, this is just another atheist ventruiloquism performance 'winning' an argument by talking to yourself.
Rhea holding a Rhea sock puppet on one hand and Lion IRC sock puppet on the other.
Lame.
/thread

Really? This is you now?
(Also, “_as_ I said before”)

 

[steve_bank]

The issue is not religious freedom, no one is proposing banning rituals and worship.

The problem is a mandate derived from the NT to convert the world. I've heard it said 'one person at a time'. You do not see Jews or Muslims for that matter in this country getting in your face on the street. I've known a few Muslims, none have ever initiated any kind of dialogue about faith. I am always the one initiating discussion. I know there are Muslim sites that push for a global caliphate, I belive it is a very small percentage in the USA. When I was in Memphis circa 1970 standing on a street corner you could find a bible in your face.

 

[Jobar]

If there were more Christians who tried to practice more of what Jesus preached- do good to those who persecuted them, to love their enemies, to resist not evil- well, the world would probably be a better place, wouldn't it?

Alas, there are all too many who preach hatred, all the while claiming they do it in the name of love.

I see these types of arguments often - even from atheists. Hell, I've used them myself, but over time I've come to see them for what they are. Put simply, such an argument gives Christians too much of an out. It implies that Christians that are closer to acting in an acceptable way, a more loving way, is more Christian, or a better Christian, than the bigoted, dominionist holier than thou types. This is how infected our culture has become with the idea that Christian = good person.

I don't think that. I *do* think that there are good ethical guidelines that can be found in the Bible; not that they're original to Judaism or to Christianity, or that they're completely adequate for modern society. Still, they can be a decent foundation to build on, if you pick and choose. (Which you have to do, because there are also plenty of hateful and barbaric pronouncements in there, too.)

In fact, even the specific ones I quoted aren't perfect. Sometimes evil needs to be resisted. Some enemies are so horrible that they have to be fought, and trying to love them just gets you killed or enslaved. Turning the other cheek just gets you battered and ridiculed.

It's just not so. There's no group of Christians that are more moral or ethical than the rest of the people in the world - in fact, they often can not even measure up to a secular morality in that respect. Asking Christians to live up to the example Jesus set for them is nonsensical because Jesus himself often did not act in a moral manner. Yes, there are good things he said, just as there are awful xenophobic, bigoted, selfish things he said. There as many versions of Jesus as there are Christians. To most evangelicals, Jesus is a white, gun-toting, conservative American that hates anyone not just like him that claims exceptionalism for his religion. Every single subset of the Christian religion has a general concept of their own Jesus, and every single member of that subgroup has further clarified that Jesus in their own mind.

No argument with any of that.
View attachment 16083
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I'm sure some of them are good people. *wink* But those that are left are living with blinders on, as we see in full glorious detail in this thread and others. They may as well put a bag on their head and dance in traffic for all the good they do. They empower the rest of these Christians and their deplorable behavior, while they run around trying to point out all the good Christians do, even as they stand in front of all the bad conduct so you cannot get a clear view.

Yes, some are. In the words of Robert Ingersoll, "So far as I am concerned, I most cheerfully admit that most Christians are honest, most ministers sincere. We do not attack them; we attack their creed. We accord to them the same rights that we ask for ourselves." Most Christians in modern societies would not want to go back to the dark ages, burn witches and heretics, or even ban all abortions under any circumstances. Quite a few of them are decent and sensible people; mistaken in their religious beliefs, yes, but not monsters.

 

[Underseer]

The single worst thing happening in the world's religions right now is the practice of killing children for "witchcraft" by certain African Evangelicals.

So far, an estimated 1000 children have died from this (that number is a few years old and could easily be larger by now), and most of those children were killed with fire or acid.

Let that sink in. Around a thousand children have been brutally killed in some of the most horrible ways imaginable for a "crime" they can't possibly be guilty of. Witchcraft isn't real. If you have a really strong stomach, you can search the Internet to find videos of children being killed, including one in which a burning child is kicked back into a fire.

The Christians doing this are not bad people who set out to do evil. I don't doubt that they genuinely believe that they are good people doing good work by saving the rest of the world from witchcraft.

Faith told them that witchcraft is real. Once you believe that witchcraft is real, how do you identify when witchcraft has happened? How do you identify who has practiced witchcraft? How do you protect yourself from witchcraft? Because witchcraft isn't actually real, any answer you find to any of those follow up questions is likely to also be wrong, and European history shows that those follow up questions can lead to truly horrifying places.

Once faith tells you something is true, how can evidence (or the lack thereof in this case) convince you that it is false?

While we can blame this on the attitudes about witchcraft of American Evangelical missionaries operating in the area, and how the teachings of those missionaries interacted with local superstitions to produce the modern phenomenon of killing children for witchcraft, the ultimate root cause is faith itself: the notion that it is better to accept conclusions without evidence than to withhold conclusions until one has sufficient evidence for a conclusion.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I am not going to attempt to reply to every post on this thread, but I would ask one thing of the participants – can you please not use such a broad brush to paint all Christians as supporting the atrocities you are detailing? There are many, many of us who are just as appalled as you are about these actions. Some are afraid to speak up because they think that either they will be attacked by the atheist community as being “not a real Christian”…..and just as afraid of being attacked by the far right Christian community for the same reason!

I am not afraid to speak my mind. I grant you that it has caused me some grief in the past among the more rabid right leaning believers (and atheists), but I think that is more their problem than mine. I am not on the far left or the far right of the spectrum of Christianity; I hold to what is considered one of the fundamentals of Christian faith as detailed in Jesus’ words in Mark 12:30-31: “30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

The things you mention are not Christian failings; they are human failings. Atrocities have been done in the name of many faiths, or no faith at all. The perpetrators use whatever reasoning they want to justify their actions using a particular personal interpretation that is not shared by most of the group they claim to represent. In most cases they are not even close to being representative of the larger group.

And I make no claim that I am a better Christian than those who hold differing beliefs – but I do question their interpretations when it seems necessary. Christians as a group are also no more moral or caring than any other group affiliation; we are human and have our failings too. You will find the same spectrum of belief and behavior in any community, be it faith related or otherwise. I will not defend the behavior of those who perform actions that are indefensible such as causing or prolonging the suffering of another human being. This is not Christ like behavior and it shames the entire faith community when someone who claims to be Christian is the perpetrator.

And Jobar – thanks for recognizing that not all Christians are the same

Ruth

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I am not going to attempt to reply to every post on this thread, but I would ask one thing of the participants – can you please not use such a broad brush to paint all Christians as supporting the atrocities you are detailing? There are many, many of us who are just as appalled as you are about these actions. Some are afraid to speak up because they think that either they will be attacked by the atheist community as being “not a real Christian”…..and just as afraid of being attacked by the far right Christian community for the same reason!

I am not afraid to speak my mind. I grant you that it has caused me some grief in the past among the more rabid right leaning believers (and atheists), but I think that is more their problem than mine. I am not on the far left or the far right of the spectrum of Christianity; I hold to what is considered one of the fundamentals of Christian faith as detailed in Jesus’ words in Mark 12:30-31: “30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

The things you mention are not Christian failings; they are human failings. Atrocities have been done in the name of many faiths, or no faith at all. The perpetrators use whatever reasoning they want to justify their actions using a particular personal interpretation that is not shared by most of the group they claim to represent. In most cases they are not even close to being representative of the larger group.

And I make no claim that I am a better Christian than those who hold differing beliefs – but I do question their interpretations when it seems necessary. Christians as a group are also no more moral or caring than any other group affiliation; we are human and have our failings too. You will find the same spectrum of belief and behavior in any community, be it faith related or otherwise. I will not defend the behavior of those who perform actions that are indefensible such as causing or prolonging the suffering of another human being. This is not Christ like behavior and it shames the entire faith community when someone who claims to be Christian is the perpetrator.

And Jobar – thanks for recognizing that not all Christians are the same

Ruth

Isn't that kind of the point, though? If Christians can just be good or evil the exact same as everyone else and cherry pick interpretations of parts of the theology to validate their positions either way while ignoring other parts which are at odds with what they think, doesn't that make it somewhat pointless? One would assume that having a population working off of a base set of rules set down by a divine entity would lead to their having some kind of significant difference between them as other populations who either just made the rules up themselves, were tricked into those rules by Satan, or whatever other competing methods of setting up morality they had.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Isn't that kind of the point, though? If Christians can just be good or evil the exact same as everyone else and cherry pick interpretations of parts of the theology to validate their positions either way while ignoring other parts which are at odds with what they think, doesn't that make it somewhat pointless? One would assume that having a population working off of a base set of rules set down by a divine entity would lead to their having some kind of significant difference between them as other populations who either just made the rules up themselves, were tricked into those rules by Satan, or whatever other competing methods of setting up morality they had.

This is something that I battle constantly – the idea that Christianity should be this monolithic group with no variation in beliefs. Let me ask you something – do Muslims all believe the same thing? Do Buddhists? Do atheists? Of course not. These groups are composed of individual humans, and each one has their particular interpretation of what the group should believe.

Yes, you would think that a group of believers would be different than the world at large but unfortunately given that we are fallible humans just like everyone else it is not always the case. In a community you will find those who ignore the law on a regular basis – and the same is true of faith communities. People are imperfect and fail, whether believers or not. This is nowhere more evident than in the history of the Jewish people, who were called the “chosen people” of God. They were to be examples to the nations of a covenant relationship with God. And we can see how that turned out.

The Bible was written by very fallible men who were trying to express their understanding of God and teach it to others. It is only natural that there are differing opinions and understanding of God and the expectations of how the faith community would act. At this point you probably realize that I do not subscribe to the “inerrant, infallible, God breathed” view of scripture.

I find it very amusing that those who hold to that view of the Bible don’t like to discuss Acts 4:32-35 which says “32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.” This would mean that they would actually have to show compassion and generosity to the less fortunate in the church – and you can bet most wealthy Christians would have a very hard time doing that!

I hold to only the fundamentals – the Gospel message of salvation and the greatest commandments of love. To me that is the “base set of rules” which determines who is Christian and who is not. All else is window dressing and is up for discussion. Doesn’t make me real popular with some of my fellow believers, but that is okay too.

Ruth

 

[Keith&Co.]

This is something that I battle constantly – the idea that Christianity should be this monolithic group with no variation in beliefs.

Why do you battle it, though?
Electricity is real. There are various ways to implement something using electrical power, but the basic ideas of 'electrons flow, lights glow' is the same all over, no matter your background. The difference between AC and DC depends on how it's made, not the preconceptions of the electrician.

If the object of your faith was real, and had unlimited power to convey his perfect word, why would there be any reason to expect a schism?

It is only natural that there are differing opinions and understanding of God and the expectations of how the faith community would act.

I really don't think that it IS natural. Not if the thing you're trying to understand is real. Real, and aware of EVERY different opinion being tagged to him, expressed as HIS word. Some correction would be expected. I mean, he put the word out in the first place. Why, then, would he ignore errors in the transmission of this word?

I work for Special Projects, and though they only have to deal with 14 platforms for missile fire control, they spend a HELL of a lot of time trying to make sure every single missile technician has the same understanding of the purpose of any given piece of equipment, the way to perform each step of every procedure... There was a four year battle to make sure every one of six major contractors had the same understanding of when and how to use the verbs 'ensure' and 'verify.'

if our very souls depend on understanding His word, why does he allow the different opinions to grow to the point where his alleged follows are killing each other over the differences?

 

[steve_bank]

That it is not Christianitynitself, it is the humans is an old side step.

The problem is that pesky Reformation that essentially made any person a reliogion of one. In the 1st-2nd centuries what were originaly Jewish heretics formed an independent identity and claimed the Torah or Old Testamnet as their own and distanced from Jews. Add to that the New Testamnet at a later date.

Christiand freely interpret the bible, often to bad ends. for other. From Leviticus a virulent hatred of gays., ignoring the rest of the moral rules.

I<O there is no such thing as Christianity. Words diectly attributable to Vjrist are few in the NT. There is niothing in the way of a consistent morality. That was created by the RCC over centuries.

The only requirement to be a Christian is beliving in Christ, and the ressurection follows. There are no specific requiremnts in the NT as what it requ8res to be and live Christuian. That is what leads to all Christian variations in trhe USA.

Contrast to Judaism. If you want to bvecome Jewish you have to go before a religious court, make your case, and show how you have been living in accordance with Jewish requirements.Tjereare manysmall Christian churches in the USA with their own interpretaions. Some use rented store fronts in Seattle. Some meet in homes.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Things I hate about Christianity

Anti-intellectualism
Backed into a corner, Christians happily abandon logic and reason. "God is incomprehensible". "God is inscrutable".
Word games. Christians in my experience as happy to try word games which redefine words and substitute rhetorical phrases for replies.
The worst Christians trying to cram bad religiously based ideas down our throats. Creationism in ours chools, right winged pseudo-history, climate denialism.

 

[Jobar]

And Jobar – thanks for recognizing that not all Christians are the same

Ruth

Ruth, practically all of my family are Christians. My favorite nephew is an ordained Baptist minister, who teaches at a church-sponsored college here in Georgia. (He's known all his life that his uncle John is an atheist; he still loves me, and I love him.)

 

[Angry Floof]

• Submission to authority
• Punishment of questioning and dissent
• Value on believing magical fantasies over critical thinking skills
• Subjugation of women and children
• Us vs them world view
• Black and white framework of reality
• Rigid moral codes
• Social dominance goals
• Absolutism

I could go on.

If you're a Christian and not an ignorant, frightened, prejudiced right wing authoritarian follower, then congratulations, your ordinary humanness is superior to the so called moral system you subscribe to.

 

[steve_bank]

I tried a thread on this and got mowhere.

If there are Christians who practice true Christianity and those Christians who do not, where in the gospels is it defined what it means to be a Christian, how do act, and what is the Christian moral code.

Some Christians are good people in general. I have yet to meet a Christian who did not think in some fashion non believers are inherently flawed. A sort of condescension. To be a Christian means you are in and I am out, a fundamental intolerance.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Originally posted by Ruth Harris

It is only natural that there are differing opinions and understanding of God and the expectations of how the faith community would act.

Hi Ruth and thanks for participating.

Don't you find it just a little suspicious though? It isn't just differing opinions and understanding of God. It's that ALL religions are like this. Every single one, as it gets larger has schism upon schism, but not ONE of them, not ONE is happier, more moral, or show any indication of even being on the right path. Have you ever seen an interfaith conference? When you observe one it becomes pretty easy to see why not one of these religions has had any success in showing that they are the one that is true, out of all the others. Here I usually recommend a book called The Outsider Test of Faith by John Loftus. I mean, the hiddenness of a benevolent god, to me is worse for Christianity than the problem of evil.

 

[Elixir]

Originally posted by Ruth Harris

It is only natural that there are differing opinions and understanding of God and the expectations of how the faith community would act.

Hi Ruth and thanks for participating.

Don't you find it just a little suspicious though? It isn't just differing opinions and understanding of God. It's that ALL religions are like this. Every single one, as it gets larger has schism upon schism, but not ONE of them, not ONE is happier, more moral, or show any indication of even being on the right path. Have you ever seen an interfaith conference? When you observe one it becomes pretty easy to see why not one of these religions has had any success in showing that they are the one that is true, out of all the others. Here I usually recommend a book called The Outsider Test of Faith by John Loftus. I mean, the hiddenness of a benevolent god, to me is worse for Christianity than the problem of evil.

That splintering is an evolved benefit for all concerned. Religions evolved from needs shared by small groups/tribes. And they served very well - spiritually, economically and militarily - back when tribes were small. At a certain size, all religions break into sects, then sub-sects, then cults...

Humans have not been technologically "civilized" for long enough that suitable substitutes for sects and cults could have evolved, and population growth keeps putting pressure on every sect to splinter even further. Oh well... there are upsides... like, lately, the big ones have been too busy going after each other to bother with torching atheists, like the good old days.

Uh-oh!~ just saw on TV out of the corner of my eye; Larry Kudlow Struck Down By God for Bashing Canada

 

[Jobar]

I tried a thread on this and got mowhere.

If there are Christians who practice true Christianity and those Christians who do not, where in the gospels is it defined what it means to be a Christian, how do act, and what is the Christian moral code.

Some Christians are good people in general. I have yet to meet a Christian who did not think in some fashion non believers are inherently flawed. A sort of condescension. To be a Christian means you are in and I am out, a fundamental intolerance.

Steve, a very large problem is that it seems impossible to say what "true Christianity" is. Even among those of good will, who agree that love is the most important thing about Christianity, when it comes down to how to best practice it, we see disagreement more often than agreement. Instead of converging on a set of desirable behavior, Christianity diverges.

And we all know that there are plenty who consider what God hates to be more important than what God loves; ones who think *their* 'Christianity' is more Biblical, more justifiable, than those who preach love. Sure, you can say they aren't 'true Christians'- but they say the same about you.

 

[repoman]

That it is not Christianitynitself, it is the humans is an old side step.

The problem is that pesky Reformation that essentially made any person a reliogion of one. In the 1st-2nd centuries what were originaly Jewish heretics formed an independent identity and claimed the Torah or Old Testamnet as their own and distanced from Jews. Add to that the New Testamnet at a later date.

Christiand freely interpret the bible, often to bad ends. for other. From Leviticus a virulent hatred of gays., ignoring the rest of the moral rules.

I<O there is no such thing as Christianity. Words diectly attributable to Vjrist are few in the NT. There is niothing in the way of a consistent morality. That was created by the RCC over centuries.

The only requirement to be a Christian is beliving in Christ, and the ressurection follows. There are no specific requiremnts in the NT as what it requ8res to be and live Christuian. That is what leads to all Christian variations in trhe USA.

Contrast to Judaism. If you want to bvecome Jewish you have to go before a religious court, make your case, and show how you have been living in accordance with Jewish requirements.Tjereare manysmall Christian churches in the USA with their own interpretaions. Some use rented store fronts in Seattle. Some meet in homes.

I am not interested in reading much of the Old and New Testaments, but the whole thing about virulent anti-gay strictures is that if I remember right, it is not strongly emphasized in comparison to other rules as you did say. Not excusing it, being an atheist and all so I don't care what people a long time ago thought. But it has legacy staying power at this point.

Anyone have a good non biased source about this?