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When philosophy leads astray

BH

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Hi,

Can some of you more studied in philosophy give me examples of when a philosophical argument was sound but still led to erroneous conclusions about the real world and caused real world problems?
 
Well, in general any 'philosophical' argument can and does go wrong in the real world. Not just in what one considers philosophy proper but in everyday life.

You have to flesh out what you mean by philosophical argument.

Theists often point to communism as an example of secular morality and philosophy. I dou8bt Marx would have approved of the corruption and tyranny of the Soviet comunists.

Philosophical debate occurs when individuals explore deep, abstract questions about topics like reality, morality, knowledge, and existence through reasoned arguments and the exchange of ideas. It happens when people want to gain a deeper understanding, challenge their own beliefs, or strengthen their own arguments by confronting objections. This can occur in formal settings like university seminars or public forums, or more informally in casual conversation

Much philosophical argument on the mature of reality fail;ed. There is a history of failures of logic and reasoning in science along with the successes.

Logic and reasoning do not guarantee success.

I have not heard of secular philosophers claiming anything absolute.
 
Hi,

Can some of you more studied in philosophy give me examples of when a philosophical argument was sound but still led to erroneous conclusions about the real world and caused real world problems?
Well, there's the logical syllogism used by the Spanish Inquisition:

P1 I suspect that A is a heretic
P2 God is all knowing
P3 God is all powerful
P4 God does not wish innocents to be punished
P5 God has not removed that suspicion from my mind
C1 Therefore God knows that I suspect A to be a heretic (P1+P2)
C2 Therefore God could, if I were wrong, remove the suspicion from my mind (P2+P3+P4)
C3 Therefore God concurs that A is a heretic

Proof of heresy, without any of the time wasting business of looking for evidence, or even of interviewing the suspect. We can just move straight to the "setting A on fire" stage.
 
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Hi,

Can some of you more studied in philosophy give me examples of when a philosophical argument was sound but still led to erroneous conclusions about the real world and caused real world problems?
Well, there's the logical syllogism used by the Spanish Inquisition:

P1 I suspect that A is a heretic
P2 God is all knowing
P3 God is all powerful
P4 God does not wish innocents to be punished
P5 God has not removed that suspicion from my mind
C1 Therefore God knows that I suspect A to be a heretic (P1+P2)
C2 Therefore God could, if I were wrong, remove the suspicion from my mind (P2+P3+P4)
C3 Therefore God concurs that A is a heretic

Proof of heresy, without any of the time wasting business of looking for evidence, or even of interviewing the suspect. We can just move straight to the "setting A on fire" stage.
Maybe valid but definitely not sound.
 
Imagine first the scientific theory, testable, and repeatably so.

Compare this to the failed hypothesis, testable and also repeatably, but whose test reveals it is erroneous.

This is sound philosophy shown to be erroneous.

I would say, however that Bilby contributed a not-sound argument, in the invocation of God and the statement of how the world MUST be or how God himself must be, when God is literally a contradiction.

We already can acknowledge that once you bring God into it, we've already lost the train of sound philosophy.
 
Hi,

Can some of you more studied in philosophy give me examples of when a philosophical argument was sound but still led to erroneous conclusions about the real world and caused real world problems?
Well, there's the logical syllogism used by the Spanish Inquisition:

P1 I suspect that A is a heretic
P2 God is all knowing
P3 God is all powerful
P4 God does not wish innocents to be punished
P5 God has not removed that suspicion from my mind
C1 Therefore God knows that I suspect A to be a heretic (P1+P2)
C2 Therefore God could, if I were wrong, remove the suspicion from my mind (P2+P3+P4)
C3 Therefore God concurs that A is a heretic

Proof of heresy, without any of the time wasting business of looking for evidence, or even of interviewing the suspect. We can just move straight to the "setting A on fire" stage.

This is indeed a valid argument because the conclusions follow from the premises, but it is not a sound argument because premises 2, 3, 4 and 5 are contestable in the absence of evidence for god. A valid argument is one in which the conclusion or conclusions logically follow from the premises; a sound argument is one in which the argument is valid but also one in which all the premises are actually true.

However, that’s still not enough, because while an argument may appear to be sound after checking all the premises, there may be enthymematic or hidden premises that, when brought to light, prove to be false.

I can’t think of an argument that is truly sound that leads to erroneous conclusions, because the idea is self-contradictory. The trick is to find truly sound arguments, but the only way that can be done is through evidence, yet all evidence is defeasible, which is why science does not deal in absolute proofs. It may be that there is no way to know if an argument is truly sound outside of mathematical proofs.

I can think of plenty of philosophical arguments that turned out to be wrong.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

Aristotle also dealt with the problem of future contingents and argued that no descriptive statement about the world can be true until the event it describes occurs. His idea was that if statements were timelessly true, then fatalism held and apparently he was eager to avoid fatalism. So he thought that if today it is true that tomorrow a sea battle will occur, then the sea battle MUST occur, and no one can alter that fact.

I suppose he had a valid argument and perhaps even a superficially sound one, if spelled out specifically in premises and a conclusion or conclusions. The problem is that the argument, if so spelled out, contained hidden premises that were false.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

That was not a philosophical argument, just a random guess he pulled out of his ass.

The function of the ass, as we all know, is to be the orifice out of which bad ideas are pulled.
 
Kant argued that it was never okay to lie, in ANY circumstance. I doubt this had much of an actual effect, however, since it's so obviously loony.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

That was not a philosophical argument, just a random guess he pulled out of his ass.

The function of the ass, as we all know, is to be the orifice out of which bad ideas are pulled.
Yes, you're right. I just thought it an interesting fact.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

Aristotle also dealt with the problem of future contingents and argued that no descriptive statement about the world can be true until the event it describes occurs. His idea was that if statements were timelessly true, then fatalism held and apparently he was eager to avoid fatalism. So he thought that if today it is true that tomorrow a sea battle will occur, then the sea battle MUST occur, and no one can alter that fact.

I suppose he had a valid argument and perhaps even a superficially sound one, if spelled out specifically in premises and a conclusion or conclusions. The problem is that the argument, if so spelled out, contained hidden premises that were false.
I disagree. I think that the logic itself was not sound, particularly in the sea battle language, specifically because it objects a "must".

This is a modal error and renders the language incorrect; his logic is sound only if you ignore that one of the premises already invokes a syntax error.

This is one of my reasons for pointing out that Bilby's was also not an example of valid logic.

It is not that the hidden premises are "false" but that they are nonsensical.

This is why I offer that guesses pulled out one's ass are valid philosophical ideas that may be erroneous, whereas beliefs in God and all adjoining results and all things which reduce to it act as invalid philosophy.

This is because even "eternally true" statements are only "eternally true" because they were momentarily true and spoken only if that moment, making their truth conditional on that moment and place and time and context.

It is not true that there will be a sea battle over there, or over the hill over there, or on top of the mountain. It is not true that there MUST be a sea battle or all of reality and sundy tomorrow everywhere would be sea battles, but that's not what we see. We see sea battles only where and when there shall be sea battles.

The problem is that when someone uses the word MUST, they MUST establish this for all available contexts to that proclamation, and they only actually manage to establish it for one context, while ignoring all the other valid contexts.

This ends up shaping up as the sort of error in computer science that is so clearly an error that compilers will not even allow you to speak it, no matter what language that you try in. The computer will say "attempted assignment of instance value to static type" or something like that.

This is an excerpt from a reddit thread about the subject I wrote some time ago:

When you ask "could X be Y", if this was a program, you would NOT be asking Is X = Y. A programmer would (or at least SHOULD) slap someone who honestly and persistently says as much or tries to write that into a language!

Instead, "Could X be Y" would be interpreted as "of values under Type(X), does any value = Y" or "does Type Set of X contain Y".

X doesn't have to be Y for "could X contain Y" to be true.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

Aristotle also dealt with the problem of future contingents and argued that no descriptive statement about the world can be true until the event it describes occurs. His idea was that if statements were timelessly true, then fatalism held and apparently he was eager to avoid fatalism. So he thought that if today it is true that tomorrow a sea battle will occur, then the sea battle MUST occur, and no one can alter that fact.

I suppose he had a valid argument and perhaps even a superficially sound one, if spelled out specifically in premises and a conclusion or conclusions. The problem is that the argument, if so spelled out, contained hidden premises that were false.
I disagree. I think that the logic itself was not sound, particularly in the sea battle language, specifically because it objects a "must".

This is a modal error and renders the language incorrect; his logic is sound only if you ignore that one of the premises already invokes a syntax error.

This is one of my reasons for pointing out that Bilby's was also not an example of valid logic.

It is not that the hidden premises are "false" but that they are nonsensical.

This is why I offer that guesses pulled out one's ass are valid philosophical ideas that may be erroneous, whereas beliefs in God and all adjoining results and all things which reduce to it act as invalid philosophy.

This is because even "eternally true" statements are only "eternally true" because they were momentarily true and spoken only if that moment, making their truth conditional on that moment and place and time and context.

It is not true that there will be a sea battle over there, or over the hill over there, or on top of the mountain. It is not true that there MUST be a sea battle or all of reality and sundy tomorrow everywhere would be sea battles, but that's not what we see. We see sea battles only where and when there shall be sea battles.

The problem is that when someone uses the word MUST, they MUST establish this for all available contexts to that proclamation, and they only actually manage to establish it for one context, while ignoring all the other valid contexts.

This ends up shaping up as the sort of error in computer science that is so clearly an error that compilers will not even allow you to speak it, no matter what language that you try in. The computer will say "attempted assignment of instance value to static type" or something like that.

This is an excerpt from a reddit thread about the subject I wrote some time ago:

When you ask "could X be Y", if this was a program, you would NOT be asking Is X = Y. A programmer would (or at least SHOULD) slap someone who honestly and persistently says as much or tries to write that into a language!

Instead, "Could X be Y" would be interpreted as "of values under Type(X), does any value = Y" or "does Type Set of X contain Y".

X doesn't have to be Y for "could X contain Y" to be true.
But could it have been otherwise?
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

Aristotle also dealt with the problem of future contingents and argued that no descriptive statement about the world can be true until the event it describes occurs. His idea was that if statements were timelessly true, then fatalism held and apparently he was eager to avoid fatalism. So he thought that if today it is true that tomorrow a sea battle will occur, then the sea battle MUST occur, and no one can alter that fact.

I suppose he had a valid argument and perhaps even a superficially sound one, if spelled out specifically in premises and a conclusion or conclusions. The problem is that the argument, if so spelled out, contained hidden premises that were false.
I disagree. I think that the logic itself was not sound, particularly in the sea battle language, specifically because it objects a "must".

This is a modal error and renders the language incorrect; his logic is sound only if you ignore that one of the premises already invokes a syntax error.

This is one of my reasons for pointing out that Bilby's was also not an example of valid logic.

It is not that the hidden premises are "false" but that they are nonsensical.

This is why I offer that guesses pulled out one's ass are valid philosophical ideas that may be erroneous, whereas beliefs in God and all adjoining results and all things which reduce to it act as invalid philosophy.

This is because even "eternally true" statements are only "eternally true" because they were momentarily true and spoken only if that moment, making their truth conditional on that moment and place and time and context.

It is not true that there will be a sea battle over there, or over the hill over there, or on top of the mountain. It is not true that there MUST be a sea battle or all of reality and sundy tomorrow everywhere would be sea battles, but that's not what we see. We see sea battles only where and when there shall be sea battles.

The problem is that when someone uses the word MUST, they MUST establish this for all available contexts to that proclamation, and they only actually manage to establish it for one context, while ignoring all the other valid contexts.

This ends up shaping up as the sort of error in computer science that is so clearly an error that compilers will not even allow you to speak it, no matter what language that you try in. The computer will say "attempted assignment of instance value to static type" or something like that.

This is an excerpt from a reddit thread about the subject I wrote some time ago:

When you ask "could X be Y", if this was a program, you would NOT be asking Is X = Y. A programmer would (or at least SHOULD) slap someone who honestly and persistently says as much or tries to write that into a language!

Instead, "Could X be Y" would be interpreted as "of values under Type(X), does any value = Y" or "does Type Set of X contain Y".

X doesn't have to be Y for "could X contain Y" to be true.
But could it have been otherwise?
It already IS otherwise, before and after, to the left and to the right, above and below, everywhere that is elsewhere.. not just "could be", it actually is otherwise.
 
Aristotle thought that the brain's function was to cool the blood. I think we've discovered that this idea was slightly mistaken?

That was not a philosophical argument, just a random guess he pulled out of his ass.

The function of the ass, as we all know, is to be the orifice out of which bad ideas are pulled.
Yes, you're right. I just thought it an interesting fact.
A bit of a diverticulum tho.
 
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