Even when you downplay the creative work behind the OT, it is still orders of magnitude more creativity than Abrams' effort: merely using the original trilogy as a template.
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Which movie did you watch today and how would you rate it?
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Even when you downplay the creative work behind the OT, it is still orders of magnitude more creativity than Abrams' effort: merely using the original trilogy as a template.
Underseer
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Yes, just as Episode 4 was a retread of Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress with a clumsy, ham-handed injection of the monomyth and atrocious dialog. The monomyth made it the same damn story humanity has been hearing for thousands of years.
Jimmy Higgins
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A labored remake/remix of Episode 4?
Not much. Lucas could start and finish a movie strong, but after Episode V, he had real trouble with the middle.
Episode VII was a lazy cash grab and officially made me ban Star Wars films like Edge of Darkness caused the ban of "Star Trek".
That's different from the original movies how?
I'm dead serious. Lucas used the monomyth as a template in the same way episode 7 uses episode 4. Heck, Lucas wasn't even clever enough to use some of the elements of the universal hero's journey as metaphors, everything is depressingly literal and by-the-numbers. The dialog is atrocious and the script is full of plot holes, but you overlook all of that because the action and pacing are well done, and the use of the monomyth virtually guarantees it will pull at your heart-strings as long as you can turn your brain off and go with the ride. Add to that the derring-do feel of the old Buck Rogers serials and liberal theft of the works of Kurosawa, add space ships and laser-swords and voi la! Star Wars!
Episodes 5 and 6 pretty much followed the same brainless template. Episode 5 was just darker because it was the second act of a trilogy and it did what second acts are supposed to do.
I enjoyed the original trilogy for the brainless ride, but let's not pretend there was anything all that innovative about it.
The special effects were. That is what made the movie cool and forgivable. Star Wars in today's CGI world can't use that anymore.
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Captain America: Civil War
Once again, I'm rewarded for waiting until the film hits the discount theater. Another Marvel movie well worth a $3 matinee on a Sunday afternoon.
What a jumbled mess of a movie. The conflict between Cap and Iron Man seemed forced. Like someone came up with the idea of "who would win if the Avengers fought each other?" then they just threw darts at a board until they came up with teams and didn't spend much time trying to give the characters real reasons to fight.
Yeah, Bucky was your friend back in WWII, but Steve...come on...that guy died 60 years ago and he's been a murderous Hydra thug for decades.
Since we're talking about Star Wars lately, let's talk about one thing I thought the original movies handled brilliantly...the redemption of Darth Vader. He was introduced as the villain. Then revealed to be the hero's father. Then Lucas did something masterful: He made you feel sorry for the biggest bad guy in the galaxy. That final scene on the Death Star was really something..."You can't die, I have to save you!" "You already have." With just a few lines of dialogue, Darth Vader became a sympathetic character. In death, he was redeemed.
Bucky, like Vader, started out as a good guy, turned evil, and then never really stopped being a murderous Hydra thug. Or more to the point, the movie (and the previous Cap film) never really gives you the sense that there's still some vestiges of good left in the Winter Soldier. I guess I was waiting for the "Vader throws Palpatine down the reactor shaft" moment where the Winter Soldier sacrifices himself and finally becomes Bucky again, but it was not to be.
And the sub-plot about the UN reigning in The Avengers? Completely fell flat. To me, part of the appeal of superhero stories is that there's not much exploration of the fact that they're basically vigilantes. The real world consequences of having a team of supers fighting crime? This isn't the real world we're talking about, folks.
A couple other nit-picks...um...guys...we don't need a scene where you explain the absence of every character not in the film. We get it. Paltrow is very expensive, and Ruffalo is busy doing smaller films. Oh, and about Vision. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vision is (or at least seems to be) more powerful than all the other Avengers combined. He's an AI demigod with an Infinity Stone in his forehead that can lift Mjolnir like its an ice cream cone and here he's reduced to babysitting Wanda.
I think I'm about all Marveled out.
5/10
Once again, I'm rewarded for waiting until the film hits the discount theater. Another Marvel movie well worth a $3 matinee on a Sunday afternoon.
What a jumbled mess of a movie. The conflict between Cap and Iron Man seemed forced. Like someone came up with the idea of "who would win if the Avengers fought each other?" then they just threw darts at a board until they came up with teams and didn't spend much time trying to give the characters real reasons to fight.
Yeah, Bucky was your friend back in WWII, but Steve...come on...that guy died 60 years ago and he's been a murderous Hydra thug for decades.
Since we're talking about Star Wars lately, let's talk about one thing I thought the original movies handled brilliantly...the redemption of Darth Vader. He was introduced as the villain. Then revealed to be the hero's father. Then Lucas did something masterful: He made you feel sorry for the biggest bad guy in the galaxy. That final scene on the Death Star was really something..."You can't die, I have to save you!" "You already have." With just a few lines of dialogue, Darth Vader became a sympathetic character. In death, he was redeemed.
Bucky, like Vader, started out as a good guy, turned evil, and then never really stopped being a murderous Hydra thug. Or more to the point, the movie (and the previous Cap film) never really gives you the sense that there's still some vestiges of good left in the Winter Soldier. I guess I was waiting for the "Vader throws Palpatine down the reactor shaft" moment where the Winter Soldier sacrifices himself and finally becomes Bucky again, but it was not to be.
And the sub-plot about the UN reigning in The Avengers? Completely fell flat. To me, part of the appeal of superhero stories is that there's not much exploration of the fact that they're basically vigilantes. The real world consequences of having a team of supers fighting crime? This isn't the real world we're talking about, folks.
A couple other nit-picks...um...guys...we don't need a scene where you explain the absence of every character not in the film. We get it. Paltrow is very expensive, and Ruffalo is busy doing smaller films. Oh, and about Vision. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vision is (or at least seems to be) more powerful than all the other Avengers combined. He's an AI demigod with an Infinity Stone in his forehead that can lift Mjolnir like its an ice cream cone and here he's reduced to babysitting Wanda.
I think I'm about all Marveled out.
5/10
repoman
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I think there should be a separate thread on the monomyth. This is cool stuff.
I just skimmed the wiki entry on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey and there is much ground to cover. There is a paragraph about the female journey:
I am curious if she was written about Miyazaki's movies: "Spirited Away", "Kiki's Delivery Service", "Nausicaa" (also a much longer manga) and his colleague Takahata with "The Tale of Princess Kaguya" and "Only Yesterday" (which is incredibly underrated, and the source manga written by a japanese woman in her 30s).
Ha, 25 years later released officially in the U.S. on DVD/Blu Ray. Disney didn't distribute because I think it mentions periods and Studio Ghibli didn't allow cuts to the film.
I just skimmed the wiki entry on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey and there is much ground to cover. There is a paragraph about the female journey:
I am curious if she was written about Miyazaki's movies: "Spirited Away", "Kiki's Delivery Service", "Nausicaa" (also a much longer manga) and his colleague Takahata with "The Tale of Princess Kaguya" and "Only Yesterday" (which is incredibly underrated, and the source manga written by a japanese woman in her 30s).
Ha, 25 years later released officially in the U.S. on DVD/Blu Ray. Disney didn't distribute because I think it mentions periods and Studio Ghibli didn't allow cuts to the film.
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credoconsolans
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Not to Steve. It's only been 4 years for him. Probably the same for Bucky since he's on ice when he's not being abused and used by Hydra.
Did you miss the part of brainwashing and torture Hydra put Bucky through? They showed it in the last Captain America movie as well.
Yeah, but they're trying to make it as realistic as possible. Heck, even the Incredibles had a minor plotline about having to retire because of all the damage. The 2nd [older] Fantastic Four movie has Susan talking to Reed about being billed for damage to cop cars.
It was based on the very popular Civil War comic book series. So they didn't come up with this stuff on their own.
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Exactly. There were some changes from the comics, but like the comics it was all about what would happen in the real world if we had all of these super powered heroes and villains running around fighting each other and destroying everything around them. The last few MCU movies have all been building up to this point, and the next movie or two will deal with the fallout. And, if you don't care for that realism, there is The Guardians of the Galaxy, which gets a sequel next summer, and Doctor Strange coming out this fall. After the Civil War fallout is wrapped up, however, they will be moving on to the Infinity War phase of the MCU, which will likely dump the realism.
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What wasn't suitable for children?
Jimmy Higgins
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Forced? I thought it was perfect. The UN steps in and you have two people, Stark an impulsive guy who wants to try to do great, but has a track record of being his own worst enemy verses an idealist Rogers. The only thing I didn't think fell in line was Black Widow's alignment, but it was a numbers game I suppose.
I read one professional review online that indicated they thought Stark was making the right calls and that the film was really making it hard to defend Rogers, but I thought it did nothing of the sort. Stark is trying to mitigate the damage he has done. Much like Ultron, the new UN group is his next mistake, he can't stop making them. He wants to do what is right, but his impulsive nature continues to fail him. Rogers, on the other hand, understands that politics change and that they were above the politics. They weren't perfect, but was there really any other group they could trust to control them, especially after the fall of SHIELD?
This film blew me away. I can understand people not being into the comic book movie thing (comic book fan or not), but I just don't think you really felt this film properly. And because this is the Internet, I felt obligated to inform you of that.
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This film blew me away. I can understand people not being into the comic book movie thing (comic book fan or not), but I just don't think you really felt this film properly. And because this is the Internet, I felt obligated to inform you of that.
I actually do like comic book movies, though I don't read the comics that they're based upon. So telling me that the movie is good because it followed the comic story line really doesn't sell it for me.
I also liked the first two Captain America movies. And the first two Iron Man films. The big ensemble pieces? Not so much. Guardians of the Galaxy was fun, but it was really Star-Lord and Friends. Movies like Civil War and Avengers have to divide up a limited amount of screen time between all these huge characters and it doesn't always work. This one did a really good job introducing Spider Man. The black panther guy? Not so much. I haven't read the comics. Where did he get his super powers?
I know, I know...this is the internet and my opinion is wrong, but this movie just didn't work for me.
Underseer
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Bucky never turned evil. Both Winter Soldier and Civil War more than established that he was being brainwashed into doing those things. So even if he wasn't a childhood friend, Captain America would probably have defended that guy.
I think the thing you're missing is that Bucky isn't just a childhood best friend, he is Rogers' last remaining connection to his past. Don't forget that he's a man out of time; everyone he knows and loves is either dead or in a retirement home after having led a full life without him.
Bucky is so brainwashed that he cannot trust his own decisions. This is why
I for one appreciate the discussion about real-world consequences. In the comic books, Hank Pym would be the sourpuss who shows up and asks uncomfortable questions about the whole vigilante thing, but this works. Also, the issue of collateral damage and the world's reaction to collateral damage felt much more real and compelling in Captain America: Civil War than in Batman v Superman.
Honestly, my biggest beef with the UN plot is not what was there, but what was not there. In the source material, the center of the conflict between the two sets of heroes was a metaphor for the abuses of rights and freedoms by the post-9/11 Bush administration. In that, Iron Man was more clearly the "bad guy" (although still sympathetic).
I'm also bummed that Steve Rogers didn't die. I was really looking forward to seeing an actor of Downy's caliber deliver that ambulance scene ("It wasn't worth it"). I was also looking forward to finding out if Bucky or Falcon would pick up the shield (in the comic books, first Bucky, then Sam did it, and frankly Sam was more interesting).
Vision is also pretty clueless about basic cultural norms. Remember the scene in which he barged in on Wanda's room without so much as a knock? That is why they mostly keep him out of the way: they're not sure he can deal with decisions involving complex nuance and judgment of human character yet. That's why they didn't bring him along on the covert operation in Africa, and probably why he got stuck with Wanda-sitting (although in fairness, he's the only available Avenger who stands a chance against Wanda, as she's also a major power-house).
Underseer
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Forced? I thought it was perfect. The UN steps in and you have two people, Stark an impulsive guy who wants to try to do great, but has a track record of being his own worst enemy verses an idealist Rogers. The only thing I didn't think fell in line was Black Widow's alignment, but it was a numbers game I suppose.
I read one professional review online that indicated they thought Stark was making the right calls and that the film was really making it hard to defend Rogers, but I thought it did nothing of the sort. Stark is trying to mitigate the damage he has done. Much like Ultron, the new UN group is his next mistake, he can't stop making them. He wants to do what is right, but his impulsive nature continues to fail him. Rogers, on the other hand, understands that politics change and that they were above the politics. They weren't perfect, but was there really any other group they could trust to control them, especially after the fall of SHIELD?
This film blew me away. I can understand people not being into the comic book movie thing (comic book fan or not), but I just don't think you really felt this film properly. And because this is the Internet, I felt obligated to inform you of that.
Yeah, Captain America just went through that whole mess in Winter Soldier. He thought he was doing the right thing by serving SHIELD, only to find out that he had been unwittingly serving Hydra all along. Is it any wonder he doesn't trust government oversight?
By the way, same thing goes for Black Widow. She thought she had "turned good" and was doing bad things for a good cause only to find out that she too was unwittingly serving Hydra. Her decision to side with Rogers makes plenty of sense.
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I thought they did a great job with introducing Black Panther.
Black Panther gets his powers from a combination of heredity, magic, and technology. Black Panther is the title of the King of Wakanda, which is the most technically advanced nation in the world (so advanced it has been able to hide itself from the rest of the world for centuries). Though the title is hereditary (and presumably the origin of Black Panther's power is as well) the holder of the title has to go through a ritual to become the Black Panther. I'm not too clear on the details, as I never read his origin story, but there seems to be something to do with a magic herb he had to ingest. His powers are augmented by the highly advanced suit of armor he wears, which is made of vibranium (Captain America's shield is also made from the same stuff).
ETA: If you are interested comics, the current Black Panther comic has some of the best writing of any current superhero comic.
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What I'm saying is that pretty much none of that made it into the movie. He was the son of the king and inherited the throne, but apart from a fleeting reference to his suit containing vibranium, nothing else.
spikepipsqueak
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If Imelda Staunton didn't get some serious props for this performance there is no justice in the world.
If Imelda Staunton didn't get some serious props for this performance there is no justice in the world.
Underseer
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The herb concoction is rubbed on the skin, not eaten, and it's poisonous to anyone but the royal family of Wakanda.
It's not poisonous to Wakandan royals because part of their childhood involves building up an immunity to that stuff. The process is entirely magical. The tech comes in with his armor, claws, gadgets, etc.
Underseer
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Out of that whole story, he was pretty much the only one able to resist his own urges for vengeance.
Oh, and they had a scene with one of the Dora Milaje! Woot! That actually would have been a really close fight between Black Widow and one of the Dora Milaje, but only because Black Widow fights dirty.
Underseer
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Other tidbits that would only have been apparent if you were familiar with the source material (or really paid attention):
T'Chaka opened up Wakanda to the outside world in order to join the community of nations, and was even providing assistance to other African nations. This is significant. Up until that moment, Wakanda had spent centuries using its superior technology to hide from the outside world. Wakanda is extremely isolationist and xenophobic (although in fairness, they have good reason to distrust outsiders). This means that T'Chaka almost certainly angered a lot of traditionalists within his own nation by ending Wakanda's traditional isolation. Most likely, T'Challa will decide to continue his father's reforms, which will make the traditionalists angry with him.
Wakanda is more technologically advanced because of all the vibranium ore within their borders. Remember Ulysses Klaue from Avengers: Age of Ultron? He is a major arch-villain of Black Panther. If you paid attention during Avengers 2, you should have figured out that Klaue was willing to harm the entire nation of Wakanda just to get his hands on the vibranium ore. This is a metaphor for what European colonialism did to Africa. Because comic books are the furthest thing from subtle, Klaue wears a pith helmet just in case you missed the obvious colonialism metaphor.
Now that Wakanda is open to the world and T'Challa is running around the MCU, Tony Stark is no longer the alpha nerd when it comes to science. Expect at least one scene of T'Challa making mincemeat of Tony's security systems.
Oh, and the Dora Milaje (all-female bodyguards of the Wakandan royal family) are some of the baddest badass normals in the Marvel universe.
T'Chaka opened up Wakanda to the outside world in order to join the community of nations, and was even providing assistance to other African nations. This is significant. Up until that moment, Wakanda had spent centuries using its superior technology to hide from the outside world. Wakanda is extremely isolationist and xenophobic (although in fairness, they have good reason to distrust outsiders). This means that T'Chaka almost certainly angered a lot of traditionalists within his own nation by ending Wakanda's traditional isolation. Most likely, T'Challa will decide to continue his father's reforms, which will make the traditionalists angry with him.
Wakanda is more technologically advanced because of all the vibranium ore within their borders. Remember Ulysses Klaue from Avengers: Age of Ultron? He is a major arch-villain of Black Panther. If you paid attention during Avengers 2, you should have figured out that Klaue was willing to harm the entire nation of Wakanda just to get his hands on the vibranium ore. This is a metaphor for what European colonialism did to Africa. Because comic books are the furthest thing from subtle, Klaue wears a pith helmet just in case you missed the obvious colonialism metaphor.
Now that Wakanda is open to the world and T'Challa is running around the MCU, Tony Stark is no longer the alpha nerd when it comes to science.
Expect at least one scene of T'Challa making mincemeat of Tony's security systems.Oh, and the Dora Milaje (all-female bodyguards of the Wakandan royal family) are some of the baddest badass normals in the Marvel universe.