Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Loren Pechtel]

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

You're the one saying women are weak, that they can't simply say no if he's not going to use a condom.

 

[fromderinside]

Since we know how to produce test tube babies why don't we just change laws so that model is followed as much as it can be followed? Take the onus from either of the sex contributors. Have the state pay for whatever human participation is required in the process of baby making and rearing.

Imperative we get deities out of the arena. If you want to worship something you should pay the market price for repairing whatever that worship costs.

Yes, why don't "we" just change the laws. Authoritarians like LOVE that sort of thing.

There are reasons for changing how humans do things.

Grrrr. You didn't see my flowers.

 

[Toni]

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

You're the one saying women are weak, that they can't simply say no if he's not going to use a condom.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

 

[Jarhyn]

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

You're the one saying women are weak, that they can't simply say no if he's not going to use a condom.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I mean, on average, Lauren is not wrong. The issue is in fact that they can't always simply say no if the one with the penis is not going to use a condom. They will simply use force, or trickery to get the sperms into the vagina.

Of course the word for that is rape, but the word "rape" being used to describe it doesn't mean it stops happening.

Oftentimes this happens because one party is too immediately physically weak to enforce their "no".

Other times it happens because one party removes the condom, breaks the condom, or otherwise fails to use it properly on purpose.

Usually that party is the party with the penis and sperms

 

[Toni]

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

You're the one saying women are weak, that they can't simply say no if he's not going to use a condom.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I mean, on average, Lauren is not wrong. The issue is in fact that they can't always simply say no if the one with the penis is not going to use a condom. They will simply use force, or trickery to get the sperms into the vagina.

Of course the word for that is rape, but the word "rape" being used to describe it doesn't mean it stops happening.

Oftentimes this happens because one party is too immediately physically weak to enforce their "no".

Other times it happens because one party removes the condom, breaks the condom, or otherwise fails to use it properly on purpose.

Usually that party is the party with the penis and sperms

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

 

[Jarhyn]

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

You're the one saying women are weak, that they can't simply say no if he's not going to use a condom.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I mean, on average, Lauren is not wrong. The issue is in fact that they can't always simply say no if the one with the penis is not going to use a condom. They will simply use force, or trickery to get the sperms into the vagina.

Of course the word for that is rape, but the word "rape" being used to describe it doesn't mean it stops happening.

Oftentimes this happens because one party is too immediately physically weak to enforce their "no".

Other times it happens because one party removes the condom, breaks the condom, or otherwise fails to use it properly on purpose.

Usually that party is the party with the penis and sperms

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

See my contributions to the Jan6 thread.

I describe in there a compartmentalization I believe to be active in NPD cases.

There is almost certainly a compartmentalization happening in the majority of "I'm (probably) not fertile", "forgot to put it on", and so on.

It is the same compartment that kept my coworker oblivious to their own flirting behaviors. Predictably enough that coworker is hitting the Testosterone. There are evolutionary pressures that encourage this compartmentalization to some extent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

Really, Loren. It's not 'fault,' it's a responsibility. And guess what, if one wakes up with one's partner inside of you, it is hardly your fault.

 

[laughing dog]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

 

[Jarhyn]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

While I don't specifically seek "man", I can't help but feel some splash.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

Really, Loren. It's not 'fault,' it's a responsibility. And guess what, if one wakes up with one's partner inside of you, it is hardly your fault.

You were just blaming the men, but now it's nobody's fault?!

 

[Metaphor]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

Really, Loren. It's not 'fault,' it's a responsibility. And guess what, if one wakes up with one's partner inside of you, it is hardly your fault.

You were just blaming the men, but now it's nobody's fault?!

I’m not blaming men. I’m stating the fact: every single pregnancy is the result of some man ejaculating.

Unlike you, I don’t see pregnancy as a terrible punishment that women must face alone because men just aren’t up to the task.

 

[Metaphor]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

Your comparison is both illogical and self-serving.

First, the involuntary acts to compare are 'producing sperm' and 'producing ova', over which neither sex has control. Except that women can take the Pill to prevent their periods all together, with no such oral birth control available to men.

Second, men can control where they ejaculate and women can control where they receive ejaculate. It seems to me you think women cannot resist penis-in-vagina sex, or that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape. I am sorry your opinion of women is so catastrophically and misogynistically low.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

Your comparison is both illogical and self-serving.

First, the involuntary acts to compare are 'producing sperm' and 'producing ova', over which neither sex has control. Except that women can take the Pill to prevent their periods all together, with no such oral birth control available to men.

Second, men can control where they ejaculate and women can control where they receive ejaculate. It seems to me you think women cannot resist penis-in-vagina sex, or that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape. I am sorry your opinion of women is so catastrophically and misogynistically low.

1. Not all women can safely take the pill. The pill is highly effective but not 100% effective. Taking the pill does not suddenly make irrelevant where a man ejaculates.

2. Men are responsible for where they ejaculate. Full stop.

 

[Metaphor]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

Your comparison is both illogical and self-serving.

First, the involuntary acts to compare are 'producing sperm' and 'producing ova', over which neither sex has control. Except that women can take the Pill to prevent their periods all together, with no such oral birth control available to men.

Second, men can control where they ejaculate and women can control where they receive ejaculate. It seems to me you think women cannot resist penis-in-vagina sex, or that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape. I am sorry your opinion of women is so catastrophically and misogynistically low.

1. Not all women can safely take the pill. The pill is highly effective but not 100% effective. Taking the pill does not suddenly make irrelevant where a man ejaculates.

No men can take the Pill.

2. Men are responsible for where they ejaculate. Full stop.

Women are responsible for where they receive ejaculate. Full stop.

 

[Toni]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

Your comparison is both illogical and self-serving.

First, the involuntary acts to compare are 'producing sperm' and 'producing ova', over which neither sex has control. Except that women can take the Pill to prevent their periods all together, with no such oral birth control available to men.

Second, men can control where they ejaculate and women can control where they receive ejaculate. It seems to me you think women cannot resist penis-in-vagina sex, or that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape. I am sorry your opinion of women is so catastrophically and misogynistically low.

1. Not all women can safely take the pill. The pill is highly effective but not 100% effective. Taking the pill does not suddenly make irrelevant where a man ejaculates.

No men can take the Pill.

2. Men are responsible for where they ejaculate. Full stop.

Women are responsible for where they receive ejaculate. Full stop.

Try telling that to a rape victim.

Men control where they ejaculate. They could avoid any unwanted pregnancy simply by not ejaculating in or near a vagina. They choose not to do this because they do not suffer any ill effects associated with pregnancy. They value their pleasure over the woman’s well being.

Men certainly can take the pill but it is unlikely to be effective at stopping sperm production or convincing men to make better choices about where they ejaculate..

Men have largely been responsible for drug development. Instead of focusing their efforts on a medication that would allow them to control their fertility, they instead focused on ways that women might be able to control hers. Various forms of the make pill have been developed and disregarded because of side effects—which are significantly less serious or bothersome than those that come with the current female only birth control pill. Or IUD forgot that matter.

 

[Metaphor]

Or things just get heated fairly rapidly and she doesn't realize until it's a too late that the condom has not been employed. I suppose that falls under the heading of 'fails to use the condom properly.' Most of those posting are not young men so they perhaps forget the urgency that can cause one to forget to use a condom. Or a diaphragm. Maybe they forgot the days of waking up in the middle of the night (both of you) and being engaged in behavior that could result in a baby. Maybe that's never happened to them. Which, in a way, is sad. OTOH, they probably don't have any oopsy kids.

All of these are as much her fault as his.

What is this moralistic hangup with finding fault? The entire discussion is about responsibility, and the ultimate responsibility of dealing with a pregnancy falls squarely on the woman.

For some reason, the only people in this thread disagreeing with the above are some men.

Oh, no: as far as I can tell, every single man is perfectly happy to leave the responsibility of carrying the pregnancy, and everything that implies, with the woman.

This thread got split as a discussion of who is responsible for CAUSING the pregnancy. Men don’t even want that much responsibility, although every single pregnancy results from a man’s ejaculation.

Every single pregnancy results from a woman's ovulation.

Over which she has zero control, unlike men who can control where they ejaculate.

Your comparison is both illogical and self-serving.

First, the involuntary acts to compare are 'producing sperm' and 'producing ova', over which neither sex has control. Except that women can take the Pill to prevent their periods all together, with no such oral birth control available to men.

Second, men can control where they ejaculate and women can control where they receive ejaculate. It seems to me you think women cannot resist penis-in-vagina sex, or that all penis-in-vagina sex is rape. I am sorry your opinion of women is so catastrophically and misogynistically low.

1. Not all women can safely take the pill. The pill is highly effective but not 100% effective. Taking the pill does not suddenly make irrelevant where a man ejaculates.

No men can take the Pill.

2. Men are responsible for where they ejaculate. Full stop.

Women are responsible for where they receive ejaculate. Full stop.

Try telling that to a rape victim.

No, I won't try that. I made it clear from the start that I was talking about consensual sex, and I repeated it often enough that I did not think I would get bad faith shit like your response.

Men control where they ejaculate. They could avoid any unwanted pregnancy simply by not ejaculating in or near a vagina.

Women could avoid any unwanted pregnancy by not letting ejaculate in or near their vagina*

*Asterisked for instant bad-faith bullshit response. I am talking about consensual sex between adults.

They choose not to do this because they do not suffer any ill effects associated with pregnancy. They value their pleasure over the woman’s well being.

My mother voluntarily became pregnant several times. Indeed, my father wanted to stop having children after he'd fathered two with my mother, but that isn't what my mother wanted. Did he not care about my mother's well being?

Men certainly can take the pill but it is unlikely to be effective at stopping sperm production or convincing men to make better choices about where they ejaculate..

Yes, thank you for the astounding insight that men can physically ingest a hormone pill not designed for them.

Men have largely been responsible for drug development.

Yes: men are responsible and can rightly be proud of liberating billions of women from the shackles of biological destiny. How grateful you should and must be for that.

Instead of focusing their efforts on a medication that would allow them to control their fertility, they instead focused on ways that women might be able to control hers.

Yes indeed. How grateful you must be that women can control their fertility.