Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Toni]

Then when it comes to abortion, you think you need to make that decision for the woman, instead of letting her choose.

I've never said that because I don't believe it.

Biological science dictates which parent does the gestating. Since she's stuck with that part, I'm totally good with requiring him to provide child support. 18 years worth of payments.

I'd rather parents didn't have irresponsible sex and make babies they have no intention of properly caring for.

And no, I don't think being female makes you a victim of a man when your Choices don't work out as intended. I do think women are as competent as men.

I realize that feminists disagree. That's why I'm not a feminist.
Tom

No, that makes you a misogynist.

 

[Metaphor]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

I did not suggest women should not have sex ever, nor did I say women were "100% responsible". But women have agency. If a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex, and has at least rudimentary knowledge of conception, then she has enabled the very real possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. To say 'men' are responsible for all unwanted pregnancies is to falsely strip all agency from women.

 

[Toni]

There's a pretty good article on this topic.

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies​

Let’s start with this: A woman’s egg is only fertile for about two days each month. Yes, there are exceptions, because nature. But one egg which is fertile two days each month is the baseline. And those fertile eggs are produced for a limited number of years. This means, on average, women are fertile for about 24 days per year.

But men are fertile 365 days a year. In fact, if you’re a man who ejaculates multiple times a day, you could cause multiple pregnancies daily. In theory, a man could cause 1000+ unwanted pregnancies in just one year. While it’s true that sperm gets crappier as men age, it doesn’t have a fertility expiration date; men can cause unwanted pregnancies from puberty until death. So, starting with basic fertility stats and the calendar, it’s easy to see that men are the issue here.

In contrast, let’s look at birth control for men — i.e., condoms. They’re readily available at all hours, inexpensive, convenient, and don’t require a prescription. They’re effective and work on demand, instantly. They don’t cause aneurysms, mood swings, or debilitating cramps. Men can keep them stocked up just in case, so they’re always prepared. They can be easily used at the last minute. I mean, condoms are magic! So much easier than birth control options for women.

As a general rule, men get women pregnant by having an orgasm. Yes, there are exceptions — it’s possible for sperm to show up in pre-ejaculate — but in most cases, getting a woman pregnant is a pleasurable act for men. But men can get a woman pregnant without her feeling any pleasure at all. It’s even possible for a man to impregnate a woman while causing her excruciating pain, trauma, or horror.

In contrast, a woman can have nonstop orgasms with or without a partner and never once get herself pregnant. A woman’s orgasm has literally nothing to do with pregnancy or fertility — her clitoris exists simply for pleasure, not for creating new humans. No matter how many orgasms she has, they won’t make her pregnant.

Pregnancies happen when men have an orgasm. Unwanted pregnancies happen when men orgasm irresponsibly.

I would like to point out an inaccuracy in the above: Ejaculated sperm can live for up to five days inside a woman: A man can ejaculate inside a woman up to five days before she ovulates and fertilize an egg. A woman is capable of becoming pregnant, on average, 60 days a year.

 

[Metaphor]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

As usual, you miss the point. The point that is clearly lost on you is that women bear the entire physical responsibility of carrying a fertilized ovum to term which means that they (and no one else) should have the right to make whatever medical decisions that need to be made.

Is this thread called "what rights should pregnant women have" or is it called "who is responsible"?

I have not made any claims whatever about the rights of pregnant women.

 

[Toni]

You seem to think they are making irresponsible decisions. The biggest reason for crisis pregnancies is irresponsible sex. Irresponsible sex of a specific kind, Penis in Vagina sex.

That's exactly what I mean. "They", men and women, are making irresponsible Choices.

How hard is that to understand?
Tom

People making very responsible choices can still end up with an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy.

 

[TSwizzle]

Since we know how to produce test tube babies why don't we just change laws so that model is followed as much as it can be followed? Take the onus from either of the sex contributors. Have the state pay for whatever human participation is required in the process of baby making and rearing.

Imperative we get deities out of the arena. If you want to worship something you should pay the market price for repairing whatever that worship costs.

Yes, why don't "we" just change the laws. Authoritarians like LOVE that sort of thing.

 

[Emily Lake]

No, it doesn't really.

I have a higher opinion of women than you seem to have.
Tom

What do you think Toni was saying? And what do you think you're saying in response to her?

 

[Emily Lake]

And if you didn't admit a penis to your vagina you would have a near zero risk of an unintended pregnancy. The woman is just as responsible for inviting it in as the man is for going in. Or are women not really people that can be expected to take care of themselves?

So, again... It's all on the woman. If she doesn't want to risk pregnancy, she shouldn't have sex. The man isn't expected to take precautions, it's all on the woman. It takes two to tango... but only one of them is expected to choose the venue, pick out the clothes, select the music, and lead the dance, and if anything goes wrong during that dance, well, clearly it's HER responsibility, because SHE'S the one who agreed to dance!

 

[Emily Lake]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

I did not suggest women should not have sex ever, nor did I say women were "100% responsible". But women have agency. If a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex, and has at least rudimentary knowledge of conception, then she has enabled the very real possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. To say 'men' are responsible for all unwanted pregnancies is to falsely strip all agency from women.

Seriously, Met, did you READ the article? Saying men are 100% responsible was tongue in cheek. But the article does make some extremely good points about the burden placed on women to avoid pregnancy, as opposed to the privilege of men to enjoy their 10 seconds of Oh Face. I understand this dynamic doesn't apply to you, that's fine. But maybe consider reading the article and trying to understand where we're coming from?

 

[Metaphor]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

I did not suggest women should not have sex ever, nor did I say women were "100% responsible". But women have agency. If a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex, and has at least rudimentary knowledge of conception, then she has enabled the very real possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. To say 'men' are responsible for all unwanted pregnancies is to falsely strip all agency from women.

Seriously, Met, did you READ the article? Saying men are 100% responsible was tongue in cheek. But the article does make some extremely good points about the burden placed on women to avoid pregnancy, as opposed to the privilege of men to enjoy their 10 seconds of Oh Face. I understand this dynamic doesn't apply to you, that's fine. But maybe consider reading the article and trying to understand where we're coming from?

I read what you quoted from the article. I don't understand what was 'tongue in cheek' about it. In particular, the last line:

Pregnancies happen when men have an orgasm. Unwanted pregnancies happen when men orgasm irresponsibly.

What am I supposed to make of this? I can just as easily and correctly say 'pregnancies happen when women consent to sperm in their vaginas' and 'unwanted pregnancies happen when women irresponsibly consent'.

If men are culpable/responsible for unwanted pregnancies, then so are the women who consented to the activity that led to the pregnancy.

 

[TomC]

Then when it comes to abortion, you think you need to make that decision for the woman, instead of letting her choose.

I've never said that because I don't believe it.

Biological science dictates which parent does the gestating. Since she's stuck with that part, I'm totally good with requiring him to provide child support. 18 years worth of payments.

I'd rather parents didn't have irresponsible sex and make babies they have no intention of properly caring for.

And no, I don't think being female makes you a victim of a man when your Choices don't work out as intended. I do think women are as competent as men.

I realize that feminists disagree. That's why I'm not a feminist.
Tom

No, that makes you a misogynist.

By your standards, I am a misogynist.

I remember you explaining that, back when I was explaining why I supported Hillary Clinton. I didn't describe her as "ladylike", I referred to her as "Godzillary".

I'm well accustomed to being a misogynist, by your standards. Doesn't bother me in the least.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

I did not suggest women should not have sex ever, nor did I say women were "100% responsible". But women have agency. If a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex, and has at least rudimentary knowledge of conception, then she has enabled the very real possibility of an unwanted pregnancy. To say 'men' are responsible for all unwanted pregnancies is to falsely strip all agency from women.

Seriously, Met, did you READ the article? Saying men are 100% responsible was tongue in cheek. But the article does make some extremely good points about the burden placed on women to avoid pregnancy, as opposed to the privilege of men to enjoy their 10 seconds of Oh Face. I understand this dynamic doesn't apply to you, that's fine. But maybe consider reading the article and trying to understand where we're coming from?

I didn't expect to EVER agree with you but here we are. AWKWARD~

 

[Toni]

Then when it comes to abortion, you think you need to make that decision for the woman, instead of letting her choose.

I've never said that because I don't believe it.

Biological science dictates which parent does the gestating. Since she's stuck with that part, I'm totally good with requiring him to provide child support. 18 years worth of payments.

I'd rather parents didn't have irresponsible sex and make babies they have no intention of properly caring for.

And no, I don't think being female makes you a victim of a man when your Choices don't work out as intended. I do think women are as competent as men.

I realize that feminists disagree. That's why I'm not a feminist.
Tom

No, that makes you a misogynist.

By your standards, I am a misogynist.

I remember you explaining that, back when I was explaining why I supported Hillary Clinton. I didn't describe her as "ladylike", I referred to her as "Godzillary".

I'm well accustomed to being a misogynist, by your standards. Doesn't bother me in the least.
Tom

Why would it bother you what I think? I’m just a woman, after all. We’re all either monsters or weak vessels, by your standards.

 

[laughing dog]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

As usual, you miss the point. The point that is clearly lost on you is that women bear the entire physical responsibility of carrying a fertilized ovum to term which means that they (and no one else) should have the right to make whatever medical decisions that need to be made.

Is this thread called "what rights should pregnant women have" or is it called "who is responsible"?

More pedantic handwaving.

I have not made any claims whatever about the rights of pregnant women.

No one said you did, so why bring it up?

 

[Metaphor]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

As usual, you miss the point. The point that is clearly lost on you is that women bear the entire physical responsibility of carrying a fertilized ovum to term which means that they (and no one else) should have the right to make whatever medical decisions that need to be made.

Is this thread called "what rights should pregnant women have" or is it called "who is responsible"?

More pedantic handwaving.

I have not made any claims whatever about the rights of pregnant women.

No one said you did, so why bring it up?

You saw fit to bring it up in response to a post of mine.

If you can't help but make irrelevant comments, you should probably stop commenting.

 

[laughing dog]

You saw fit to bring it up in response to a post of mine.

You are mistaken. I made no claim about you commenting on the right of pregnant women.

If you can't help but make irrelevant comments, you should probably stop commenting.

You are mistaken, I made no irrelevant comments. Please be more careful reading posts and in responding to them in order to avoid those types of errors that make one look illiterate.

 

[Metaphor]

You saw fit to bring it up in response to a post of mine.

You are mistaken. I made no claim about you commenting on the right of pregnant women.

If you can't help but make irrelevant comments, you should probably stop commenting.

You are mistaken, I made no irrelevant comments. Please be more careful reading posts and in responding to them in order to avoid those types of errors that make one look illiterate.

You said, in response to my post:

As usual, you miss the point. The point that is clearly lost on you is that women bear the entire physical responsibility of carrying a fertilized ovum to term which means that they (and no one else) should have the right to make whatever medical decisions that need to be made.

Which was a completely irrelevant response to the post.

 

[ZiprHead]

And yet, women often engage in sex--voluntarily--that results in unwanted pregnancies.

If women absolutely want to avoid unwanted pregnancies, they should avoid penis-in-vagina sex.

So the choice is... Either women are held 100% responsible for the outcome, or they shouldn't have sex ever. Men bear none of the responsibility... they just get the pleasure and the fun. If a chick gets herself knocked up, well, that's her fault for having sex, right?

The discussion wasn't about who is responsible for the outcome (a baby), it was more about who is responsible for getting pregnant. I thought.

I thought that was all Newsom's fault. Let's Go Brandon!

On one of the least interesting forums to exist on the internet, Jimmy makes it that little bit less interesting with his hilarious repartee. Bravo Jimmy, take a bow you bore.

And off to ignore you go.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But not the release of sperm in a vagina.

It's voluntary--on both sides. A woman who allows sperm to be released into her vagina is just as responsible as the man who released it.

Honestly? If women could just tell the guy not to release his sperm inside her—and enforce it—there would be very few unintended pregnancies and so women could dispense with birth control that is expensive, inconvenient, comes with varying degrees of side effects, etc.

But women do not control men’s ejaculations.

Most unintended pregnancies are from consensual sex.

Most is not all.

Women have plenty of sex without risking pregnancy. In fact, a woman can have as much sex as she likes without becoming pregnant so long as no man is involved. It's only when sperm is deposited within proximity to an available egg that there's a potential pregnancy.

Which has nothing to do with my point.

But it has everything to do with my premise which started this unfortunate derail that got split into its own thread: every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. If men would just control themselves, women would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

After all, women can enjoy a lot of sex that has not a single thing to do with a penis or ejaculating.

And if you didn't admit a penis to your vagina you would have a near zero risk of an unintended pregnancy. The woman is just as responsible for inviting it in as the man is for going in. Or are women not really people that can be expected to take care of themselves?

This is not at all true. You are assuming that women always consent to having a penis inside her vagina.

I will admit it is very gratifying that at least some men are willing to acknowledge their responsibility in causing a pregnancy Quite refreshing

You still haven't addressed the fact that most unwanted pregnancies are from consensual sex.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And if you didn't admit a penis to your vagina you would have a near zero risk of an unintended pregnancy. The woman is just as responsible for inviting it in as the man is for going in. Or are women not really people that can be expected to take care of themselves?

So, again... It's all on the woman. If she doesn't want to risk pregnancy, she shouldn't have sex. The man isn't expected to take precautions, it's all on the woman. It takes two to tango... but only one of them is expected to choose the venue, pick out the clothes, select the music, and lead the dance, and if anything goes wrong during that dance, well, clearly it's HER responsibility, because SHE'S the one who agreed to dance!

What is so hard about the concept of both parties being responsible?