Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Emily Lake]

Can a pregnancy occur without a man committing the voluntary act that is ejaculating?

Yes, of course it can. Ejaculations do not have to be voluntary and they do not have to be in connection with sexual activity.

But, when a man voluntary ejaculates into a woman's vagina, and she has voluntarily consented to that ejaculate, they both played an equal and necessary role in any resulting conception.

Alright, I'm genuinely curious what sort of non-sexual involuntary ejaculation can result in a pregnancy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Your analogy is ridiculous, but I'll correct IT. Mutual consent to sexual activity that involves small motile gametes and large sessile gametes meeting can have pregnancy as a result, and both parties were necessary to that pregnancy. It's like a couple drinking all day, then deciding to go joyriding while they are drunk, and then you explaining they did not consent to the accident they get into. They didn't consent to it but their voluntary actions increased the likelihood.

Where do you land when two people go out drinking, and one person believes they're going to take a cab home, but ends up passed out in the passenger seat while the other drunk drives home?

Or perhaps when two people go out with the prior agreement that one is going to be the driver and won't be drinking... but is unaware that the driver has gotten drunk without their knowledge?

 

[Emily Lake]

Surely the obvious point is that there are a lot of necessary parts, and there is no reason to pick out just one of them from the set and say the process "begins" with that one unless speaker means to ascribe uniqueness to it.

You're not wrong... but I think there's a bit more involved here. There are a whole lot of necessary elements for a pregnancy to occur. Just like with a car engine. Needs to have a central chamber, pistons, spark plugs, etc. Lots and lots of bits need to be there, all doing their part. That said... without gasoline, the engine cannot work. The gas is the catalyst injected into a system that makes it happen. If other parts of the system are lacking, sure, the engine won't work either. But the gas is still the catalyst.

Same concept here. There are a lot of elements - inside a woman's body - that have to be there for a pregnancy to occur. If there's not an egg, not a uterine lining, etc. there won't be a pregnancy. But the sperm is the catalyst.

And just like someone has to exert agency to put the gas in the tank to make the engine work... the sperm-injector is a voluntary actor that has complete control over whether the sperm gets inside or not.

A woman can say "No, I don't want to have sex.". She can say "No, I won't have sex without a condom" or "No, you cannot cum inside me". But at the end of the day, the woman cannot actually control whether or not the sperm gets there. No more so than the engine can reject the gasoline.

 

[No Robots]

Of course there is no possibility of the man falling pregnant. So what? That does not make him somehow more responsible for the woman's pregnancy than he already was or wasn't.

Let's be real here. Right now the man's portion of responsibility for avoiding an unwanted pregnancy is zero, zilch, nada, nothing. That's the entire fucking point. It takes two to create a pregnancy, but right now ONLY ONE IS CONSIDERED RESPONSIBLE FOR AVOIDING PREGNANCY.

And only one is considered responsible for dealing with the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You said getting hit by a drunk driver, or some other ridiculous distinction without a difference.

Getting into a car and driving means you run the risk of getting hit by a drunk driver. That is not a ridiculous statement to make.

Which is why we wear seat belts even if we are good drivers.

By the time I realized the woman was going out of turn there was nothing I could do to prevent the accident--I only had a split-second of awareness that she was rolling when she should be standing and then I got a pretty good approximation of being on the receiving end of a PIT maneuver. Without my belt I'm sure I would have gotten a lot more than a pulled muscle. I still can't imagine how my glasses ended up underneath my seat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

Man--consented to ejaculating in her vagina.
Woman--consented to having her vagina ejaculated into.

Equal.

I assume that you are intelligent and honest enough to acknowledge that a man has the ability to ejaculate into a woman's vagina even if she hasn't consented to it? That a woman can consent to sex WITHOUT the guy ejaculating in her vagina... and the man can ejaculate in her vagina anyway and she has no way to actually stop it from happening?

NOT equal.

While rape is an issue it's not the issue we are talking about.

 

[TSwizzle]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

 

[Toni]

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

Man--consented to ejaculating in her vagina.
Woman--consented to having her vagina ejaculated into.

Equal.

I assume that you are intelligent and honest enough to acknowledge that a man has the ability to ejaculate into a woman's vagina even if she hasn't consented to it? That a woman can consent to sex WITHOUT the guy ejaculating in her vagina... and the man can ejaculate in her vagina anyway and she has no way to actually stop it from happening?

NOT equal.

While rape is an issue it's not the issue we are talking about.

Do you think that, in the context of otherwise mutually consensual sex, if the man ejaculates inside the woman’s vagina despite her stating she did not want him to ejaculate inside her vagina, that he has committed rape?

Is this age dependent? For example, the case of an 18 year old male virgin who has agreed to pull out before ejaculating but is unable to pull out in time: Did he just commit rape?

 

[Toni]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

 

[TSwizzle]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

 

[Toni]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

 

[TSwizzle]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up rape for derail purposes.

 

[Toni]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up for derail purposes again.

No, you made an absolute statement: All women have to do to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex. This is obviously untrue. Women (and girls after the onset of menarche) can refuse sex, be raped and become pregnant from the rape. Boys and men can also be raped but they do not become pregnant.

 

[TSwizzle]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up for derail purposes again.

No, you made an absolute statement: All women have to do to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex. This is obviously untrue. Women (and girls after the onset of menarche) can refuse sex, be raped and become pregnant from the rape. Boys and men can also be raped but they do not become pregnant.

No, the context is clear, it's in red and large font. Do not take my comments out of context, I am not talking about pregnancies that happen with incidents of rape.

 

[Toni]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up for derail purposes again.

No, you made an absolute statement: All women have to do to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex. This is obviously untrue. Women (and girls after the onset of menarche) can refuse sex, be raped and become pregnant from the rape. Boys and men can also be raped but they do not become pregnant.

No, the context is clear, it's in red and large font. Do not take my comments out of context, I am not talking about pregnancies that happen with incidents of rape.

You can play all the word games you like.

I’m not obligated to play along.

 

[laughing dog]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up for derail purposes again.

No, you made an absolute statement: All women have to do to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex. This is obviously untrue. Women (and girls after the onset of menarche) can refuse sex, be raped and become pregnant from the rape. Boys and men can also be raped but they do not become pregnant.

The advice "all women have to do to avoid getting pregnant is to avoid sex" is as insightful and useful as "to avoid getting hit by car, don't go outside" or "all obese people have to do to lose weight is to stop eating so much" or any other advice that ignores human nature.

 

[Metaphor]

Stop making excuses for your false accusation.

It was not an accusation nor was it false. It was a statement of fact.

No, it is not. But that is not what you wrote.

No: I wrote that receiving ejaculate into your vagina means you are taking on the risk of becoming pregnant.

You came up with a ridiculous analogy claiming my position implies it amounts to consent to pregnancy.

It is a direct application of your reasoning. As any intellectually honest reader knows, if it is ridiculous then so is your claim. You cannot have it both ways - which was my point.

Non. It is not. A 'direct' application of my reasoning would be that getting into a car and going on the road means you accept the possibility that you will be hit by a drunk driver. Which, of course, is true.

 

[Metaphor]

Voluntary consent to penis-in-vagina sex means accepting the possibility of a conception and pregnancy. This should not be hard.

Be specific: Which party is accepting the possibility of conception and pregnancy? If conception and pregnancy occurs, who bears that cost?

If both parties have a rudimentary understanding of human biology, both parties must accept the possibility of conception and pregnancy. I'm not sure I even understand the question?

If conception and pregnancy occur, the woman bears the biological burden of gestation.

 

[Metaphor]

So, involuntary process on the part of woman > voluntary action on part of man.

Got it.

Man--consented to ejaculating in her vagina.
Woman--consented to having her vagina ejaculated into.

Equal.

I assume that you are intelligent and honest enough to acknowledge that a man has the ability to ejaculate into a woman's vagina even if she hasn't consented to it? That a woman can consent to sex WITHOUT the guy ejaculating in her vagina... and the man can ejaculate in her vagina anyway and she has no way to actually stop it from happening?

NOT equal.

We've been talking about consensual sex (well, most of us have). The 'fault' and 'responsibility' of non-consensual sex does not have a bearing on the 'fault' and 'responsibility' of consensual sex.

 

[TSwizzle]

It beggars belief that this is still being debated. When a woman consents to penis-in-vagina sex she is as responsible for any resulting conception as the man who ejaculated sperm into her.

And we've come right back around to "If a chick doesn't want to get herself preggers, she should just keep her legs shut".

That is a very effective way of not getting pregnant.

All of the responsibility for avoiding a pregnancy is being placed on the woman.

Not necessarily. A woman may say, let's have sex, the man may ask are you using some form of birth control, the woman says no, don't worry about it and the man says no thanks I am not having sex with you. There, the man took responsibility.

In this scenario: He took responsibility for preventing a pregnancy and good for him!

I always enjoy a good fairy tale.

It's not a fairy tale.

The one about all a woman has to do is keep her knees together? That’s not a fairy tale but a despicable falsehood.

It's absolutely true. Woman can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex. Men can avoid getting women pregnant by not having sex with women.

Unfortunately deciding not to have sex does not prevent rape or any resulting pregnancy.

Well of course it doesn't, I wasn't talking about rape. It's only you that brings up for derail purposes again.

No, you made an absolute statement: All women have to do to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex. This is obviously untrue. Women (and girls after the onset of menarche) can refuse sex, be raped and become pregnant from the rape. Boys and men can also be raped but they do not become pregnant.

No, the context is clear, it's in red and large font. Do not take my comments out of context, I am not talking about pregnancies that happen with incidents of rape.

You can play all the word games you like.

No word games from me. Just your predictable bait and switch derail.

I’m not obligated to play along.

You must be as there is no reason for you to respond with a derail.