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Why do Christian zealots insist on lying?

For example: "Darwin was a Christian". Seriously, it's so easy to just fact check this lie and see what Darwin's views actually were. Why even bother? Is it because Christian zealots are liars? I guess that must be it.

?

Last I heard, Darwin was fairly reticent to speak or write on religious matters, but he was certainly a uncomplicated Christian early in life, and seems to have drifted toward agnosticism over time. His letters to Asa Gray suggest a fairly nuanced positioning with respect to faith. He was a deep thinker by preference, quiet by nature, and not given to pointless argumentation or "sound bite" policy positions. But I don't see that it is unreasonable to call such a person a Christian, for whatever it might matter. He was baptized, he never renounced his faith. One doesn't have to be a zealot to be a part of the Christian community.

His being baptized has no relevance to the meaning of "Christian" intended by those who claim he was one, or any psychological meaning, or that means anything beyond "some idiots threw water on him with his consent when he was an infant."

What matters for any valid definition of "Christian" is the person's actual beliefs regarding Jesus Christ. As Genesis' quotes show, Darwin believed that not only was Jesus Christ not the son of God and just a human man, but he rejected the Bible (the only source of information on Jesus) as factually false and rejected Jesus' views that the OT writings reflected factual and moral truths.

So, you want to disregard what a person believes about Jesus and his teaching as irrelevant to being a Christian, and claim that what matters is whether other people threw water at them and what label they were coerced into attaching to themselves prior to thinking about it for themselves.

By your definition of Christian, if I spit on you and believe that makes you a dragon, then you are a dragon.
If Politesse doesn't want to be a Mormon and believes this 'baptism makes it so' then she/he is in serious trouble. It is almost a certainty that the Mormons will have a proxy baptism some time after her/his death... poof, instantly transformed into a devout Mormon.
 
Where was Charles Darwin buried?

Same place the legendary Jesus was buried, in the ground.

And don't tell me the gospel protagonist wasn't buried in the ground. According to legend he was entombed into the hillside. That's returning to the sweet bosom of mother nature.

Christians make these types of claims because the mindset that results in believing things that aren't true, by corollary, is also not conducive to making logical deductions without letting ego get in the way.

To a Christian believing in the miracle is more important than finding truth, even if they aren't aware this is the case. Actually changing and becoming faithful to reason is a step they need to figure out and take themselves.

Agreed. Psychologically I don't suppose there is much if any difference between telling a lie and believing a lie.

When I was 21 I actually got first-hand experience with this. For a year I had a kind of mania induced belief in God, and I vividly remember how real it felt to me. I also remember how many people tried to talk me down, but none of them came even close to getting through.

It's not disingenuousness, it's a psychological barrier. A person has to be ready to accept truth before they will, and some people just don't ever get to that point.

Sounds like a case of cyclothymia / bipolar, or at least a mild leftover thereof.

This is why you will often hear me attributing religious behavior to this human condition. Having witnessed it in my own family, having seen secular/atheist mentality turn to deeply religious conviction, I hold that bipolar behavior was an essential survival condition in ancestral humans. Energy, inventiveness, promiscuity, schizophrenia is off the charts in bipolar behavior for those of us who have witnessed it. These are all great survival traits when the environment is conspiring everyday to make you extinct.
 
I was raised as a Christians and I was actually Baptized twice, once as an infant when my parents were fairly irreligious and once at the age of 8, when I was a budding funny. I'm in trouble because I've never officially renounced my faith, although I've considered myself an atheist for the past 41 years.

But, I don't think Darwin is really the point of this thread. I think the point is that many times, a lot of Christians make up shit, lie or don't really know what they are talking about. So, why are you missing the point, Poli? I don't care what Darwin believed, but the evidence suggests that he left Christianity.

I've seen Christians state that the abolitionists and suffragettes movements were led by Christians when in fact, there were also many atheist women who were very involved in the leadership of both of those movements. I really don't care that much, but on the other hand, it's nice to know that women like me were successful activists in important historical movements. Maybe that's why people like to claim certain people in history shared similar beliefs to their own. It's best to at least know the facts before we claim anything.
Well, alright. But why focus on a case where there is legitimate ambiguity involved? Let alone calling someone a "liar" for disagreeing about how that ambiguity ought best be interpreted? I do not see such dualistic argumentation as especially helpful to anyone. Any personal comfort derived from abridging intelligent discourse seems like cold comfort to me, and rather hypocritical considering the general thesis of the thread.
 
Well, alright. But why focus on a case where there is legitimate ambiguity involved? Let alone calling someone a "liar" for disagreeing about how that ambiguity ought best be interpreted? I do not see such dualistic argumentation as especially helpful to anyone. Any personal comfort derived from abridging intelligent discourse seems like cold comfort to me, and rather hypocritical considering the general thesis of the thread.

Well for one thing there is not legitimate ambiguity. Darwin was quite clear.
But to answer your question, “why would the argument be helpful,” I would submit that much of that answer lies in WHY Christians try to claim Voltaire, Paine, Darwin - even Hitchins! They use it to discredit atheists. They claim everyone is a christian -deep down- and that drives the argument that non-christians do not deserve legal protections. This is what they do with their untrue claim, and that is why it is important to us to fight the dangerous-to-us lie.
 
Well, alright. But why focus on a case where there is legitimate ambiguity involved? Let alone calling someone a "liar" for disagreeing about how that ambiguity ought best be interpreted? I do not see such dualistic argumentation as especially helpful to anyone. Any personal comfort derived from abridging intelligent discourse seems like cold comfort to me, and rather hypocritical considering the general thesis of the thread.

Well for one thing there is not legitimate ambiguity. Darwin was quite clear.
But to answer your question, “why would the argument be helpful,” I would submit that much of that answer lies in WHY Christians try to claim Voltaire, Paine, Darwin - even Hitchins! They use it to discredit atheists. They claim everyone is a christian -deep down- and that drives the argument that non-christians do not deserve legal protections. This is what they do with their untrue claim, and that is why it is important to us to fight the dangerous-to-us lie.
Darwin spent his lifetime being purposefully vague about this.

Repeating someone's same bad argument, just with the labels reversed, is not "fighting it"... it is a quiet endorsement.
 
Did you just claim I am “endorsing” (quietly) the thing I just said causes great harm to atheists?

Is that the kind of logic that Christians use to say Darwin was a Christian? A complete misstatement of my clear point?
Because I explicitly did NOT endorse it - I called it dangerous. That is not a “quiet endorsement.”
 
Where was Charles Darwin buried?

The Dean of Westminster, George Granville Bradley, was away in France when he received a telegram forwarded from the President of the Royal Society in London saying "…it would be acceptable to a very large number of our fellow-countrymen of all classes and opinions that our illustrious countryman, Mr Darwin, should be buried in Westminster Abbey".

So because other people requested he be buried at Westminster Abbey, Darwin was therefore a Christian? Wow, impeccable logic. Definitely got us.
 
Who said...he was buried at Westminster Abbey therefore

Are you hearing voices in your head?
 
Where was Charles Darwin buried?

The Dean of Westminster, George Granville Bradley, was away in France when he received a telegram forwarded from the President of the Royal Society in London saying "…it would be acceptable to a very large number of our fellow-countrymen of all classes and opinions that our illustrious countryman, Mr Darwin, should be buried in Westminster Abbey".

So because other people requested he be buried at Westminster Abbey, Darwin was therefore a Christian? Wow, impeccable logic. Definitely got us.
I always thought that evidenced that his work was not anti-Christain, but not that he was (or wasn't) a Christain.
 
Who said...he was buried at Westminster Abbey therefore

Are you hearing voices in your head?

Why bring up where he was buried? What's the relevance? If there is no "therefore" then it's entirely irrelevant.
 
So because other people requested he be buried at Westminster Abbey, Darwin was therefore a Christian? Wow, impeccable logic. Definitely got us.
I always thought that evidenced that his work was not anti-Christain, but not that he was (or wasn't) a Christain.

Not even that. It is only evidence that the couple of people making the decision wanted to bury him there for any number of personal reasons. And even if that reason was that they sincerely did not view his work as anti-Christian, that would not be evidence that his work was not anti-Christian, b/c people can be objectively incorrect about what ideas are logically incompatible.

IOW, it is right down there with being baptized in terms of completely irrelevant to the question of whether Darwin was a Christian.
 
[h=2]Why do Christian zealots insist on lying?[/h]

The best answer I've run across is in Dave Barry Is Not Making This Up.

The essay is about a rash of flying saucer sightings in Florida. Some people believe the space ships are real. And they believe this is important. And they want others to know the truth too. So they fake evidence.

They lie so that others may know the truth.
 
IOW, it is right down there with being baptized in terms of completely irrelevant to the question of whether Darwin was a Christian.
At least in the tradition within which I was raised, which in this respect was similar to Darwin's own, baptism is not "irrelevant" to the question of one's religious faith. I see where from a post-Russell style atheist perspective, the only thing that could possibly matter is whether one "believes" the "supernatural truth claims" of non-atheist traditions. But unless we actually establish that Darwin thought of himself as an atheist, and in the modern sense besides, what bearing does this internal bias toward ontology have on the discussion?

In Anglican thought, the tradition to which Darwin at some points in his life at least belonged (and when did we agree that deathbed beliefs are the only important kind, anyway?) sacraments are major business, not easily undone. Having doubts about the veracity of this or that specific doctrine does not automatically undo baptism any more than fucking a stranger automatically cancels a marriage. Providing a letter which suggests doubt about something certainly does not prove that another person is outside of God's grace; this is like saying your marriage is canceled if your mother heard that someone saw you flirting with someone.

I do not think Darwin, in fact, invited any sort of public pondering of his religious outlook. Knowing, as he must have, that any such public pronouncements would unfortunately affect the acceptance or rejection of his central hypothesis for non-scientific reasons, he kept such thoughts close to his chest, sharing them only with close confidants and that only in morsels and hints that could be interpreted flexibly. There is every reason in the world to believe that his positions on things changed over time. If he was at any point an atheist in the sense that you all mean it, then he was at the most a Christian and an atheist at certain different points in time. And I am not convinced that he was ever a Richard Dawkins type secretly on the inside, etc; his writings are very consistent with the sort of skeptical deism common in intellectual circles in his day, and I think this more likely. Combine this with a largely Christian social life, and I think it is reasonable to call Darwin by any number of labels, and wiser to avoid labeling him at all, as indeed was (very sensibly IMO) his wish to begin with.

I also really don't care about anyone's conclusions outside the folly of the OP in trying to go all radical-or-bust about them. As a fact by itself, I don't decide what to believe or not to believe based on what Charles Darwin did or did not believe, much though I greatly respect the man. Not just as a biologist either. But he isn't my guru.
 
IOW, it is right down there with being baptized in terms of completely irrelevant to the question of whether Darwin was a Christian.
At least in the tradition within which I was raised, which in this respect was similar to Darwin's own, baptism is not "irrelevant" to the question of one's religious faith. I see where from a post-Russell style atheist perspective, the only thing that could possibly matter is whether one "believes" the "supernatural truth claims" of non-atheist traditions. But unless we actually establish that Darwin thought of himself as an atheist, and in the modern sense besides, what bearing does this internal bias toward ontology have on the discussion?
But most baptisms are the decisions of the parents (or other caregivers) rather than the individual. It's imposed, not voluntary, so it's about as reflective of the individual's beliefs as giving them a blue or pink blankie represents their sexual self-identity.
 
So because other people requested he be buried at Westminster Abbey, Darwin was therefore a Christian? Wow, impeccable logic. Definitely got us.
I always thought that evidenced that his work was not anti-Christain, but not that he was (or wasn't) a Christain.

I have never heard that religion of lack thereof was even a consideration when deciding if someone was worthy of burial in Westminster. I thought it was for honoring the persons exceptional work. There is even the burial of 'The Unknown Warrior' (if they were unknown then obviously no one knows what their religious leanings were) to honor British soldiers who fell during war.
 
So because other people requested he be buried at Westminster Abbey, Darwin was therefore a Christian? Wow, impeccable logic. Definitely got us.
I always thought that evidenced that his work was not anti-Christain, but not that he was (or wasn't) a Christain.

I have never heard that religion of lack thereof was even a consideration when deciding if someone was worthy of burial in Westminster. I thought it was for honoring the persons exceptional work. There is even the burial of 'The Unknown Warrior' (if they were unknown then obviously no one knows what their religious leanings were) to honor British soldiers who fell during war.

But didn't you know, in order to have the capacity for honor, you must be a Christian!
 
"Didn't believe in Jesus Christ? It's OK, still a Christian"- how belief works, apparently.
 
Beliefs are only one aspect of religious life.

I don't think it makes sense to hinge everything on what someone's most private innermost beliefs are. How could you possibly know this, about anyone? Most people don't have that much insight even into themselves let alone anyone else. We only know one another through communication, action, and observation.
 
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