Why do Christian zealots insist on lying?

[skepticalbip]

Hey everybody. Fun fact.
Charles Darwin got married in a Christian church. Vows before God and everything.

By 'fun' you mean 'meaningless?' And more than a little presumption?
I was married in a Catholic ceremony. Went to wedding school and everything.

I don't know if the vows were 'before god' or not. No sign of anyone's invisible friends watching.

There are wedding schools? Whoda thunk?

But your point is well made. Apparently some theists believe that anyone who enters a church is religious. I have attended many weddings and funerals where I was in a church but only because that is where the ceremonies were held.

 

[Keith&Co.]

There are wedding schools?

in case you were unclear on the church approved sexual positions, the church approved methods of avoiding pregnancy, the church approved answers to certain questions...
What we could have used was choreography for the wedding. 4 catholics in the place, 1 Presbyterian, 4 Methodists, 45 Mormons, 3 Atheist, and 1 Other*, most of us were unfamiliar with responsorials.

Apparently some theists believe that anyone who enters a church is religious.

Well, once i get past the threshold, i stop hissing and biting, and inside i only get the rash if i touch a bible or the money tray.

* Mom was at that stage, trying to decide between Episcopalian and Buddhist.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Just because one is married in a church, does not mean one is a believer. It may have been because Darwin's wife was a believer.

 

[skepticalbip]

There are wedding schools?

in case you were unclear on the church approved sexual positions, the church approved methods of avoiding pregnancy, the church approved answers to certain questions...
What we could have used was choreography for the wedding. 4 catholics in the place, 1 Presbyterian, 4 Methodists, 45 Mormons, 3 Atheist, and 1 Other*, most of us were unfamiliar with responsorials.

AHA, I keep forgetting that a Catholic mass is a participatory sport. When growing up, I had a very close friend that was devout Catholic. I would occasionally carry him to mass when he had no other way to get there. The closest Catholic church was about 25 miles away. Rather than waiting for him in the car for mass to finish, I would go in and watch the service. The frequent stand up, sit down, simi-squat, kneel, and oral response was a mystery to me so I stayed seated and just people watched.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just because one is married in a church, does not mean one is a believer. It may have been because Darwin's wife was a believer.

Or whoever paid forbthe wedding...

 

[Rhea]

Hey everybody. Fun fact.
Charles Darwin got married in a Christian church. Vows before God and everything.

I did, too. It pleased my parents.

 

[Lion IRC]

WTF? I never claimed he was a Christian at the time of his death.
Use the quote function pal!

...or stop pretending that lying bothers you

You said Darwin and Lincoln were "both great Christian men". How else is one to interpret that? You never made the clarification that "oh he wasn't a Christian at the time of his death though". Oh so I guess he wasn't a Christian!

Same birth date as Abraham Lincoln.
Christopher Hitchens called these two great (Christian) men...
"The Great Emancipators"

Now.
Did I say Darwin was a self-professing OSAS doctrinally pure Christian on his deathbed? No.
And you don't know where he was at on the 1 to 7 spectrum either.

 

[Tigers!]

Just because one is married in a church, does not mean one is a believer. It may have been because Darwin's wife was a believer.

The old being born in a garage does not make one a car.

 

[Lion IRC]

No, but standing and pretending to make religious vows before God makes you a liar.
Are the atheists here accusing Darwin of faking his religion?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

No, but standing and pretending to make religious vows before God makes you a liar.
Are the atheists here accusing Darwin of faking his religion?

Why are you ignoring his clear skepticism towards his religion? Are you accusing him of faking his skepticism?

 

[Keith&Co.]

No, but standing and pretending to make religious vows before God makes you a liar.

Well, I don't know about Darwin, but I made MY vows to my wife and to myself.
If Vishnu was listening or not, doesn't change the sincerity of the vows I made.
Father Ernie knew I was an atheist and never once asked me to swear to or by a god I didn't believe in.

I never once took their Lord's name in vain. I was clear about my stance and open about my intentions and met their actual requirements for the wedding ceremony.

I don't believe in any gods, but I do accept the existence of religion. Religion was important to Mrs. &Co. at the time. So I didn't pretend to make religious vows. I made vows. I have kept them for thirty two point five four years.

 

[Rhea]

Just because one is married in a church, does not mean one is a believer. It may have been because Darwin's wife was a believer.

The old being born in a garage does not make one a car.

Unless maybe being born in a stable makes one a goat? Even if later given myrrh!

 

[Learner]

Just because one is married in a church, does not mean one is a believer. It may have been because Darwin's wife was a believer.

The old being born in a garage does not make one a car.

Unless maybe being born in a stable makes one the G.O.A.T.? Even if later given myrrh!

FIFY

 

[Opoponax]

So anyway...

Why do people lie when they know what they're saying is a lie in order to convince someone of something?

Because they're feeble people with tiny intellects. The most basic introspective notion, "If I have to lie to convince people of something, then maybe I shouldn't espouse this belief" doesn't occur to them.

Their justifications are similarly impotent and insulting. Almost always it has to do with some nonsense about a higher purpose. E.g., "When I ran you down in the crosswalk and then backed over you, and then ran you over again, I wasn't trying to kill you. I was going out of my way to teach you a lesson about traffic safety so that in the future you won't get hit by another car. Why, you should be thanking me!"

It's not all that different from the brimstone and hellfire types who try to scare people into believing. It's merely a different way to get to the same place.

The fact that they find themselves cornered into absurdity is of no consequence. My own dad tried to tell me that the reason so many illegal immigrants come to the U.S. is because rich democrats hire them. He's a hardcore Trump supporter. Since Trump's entire persona and "policies" are built on easily disprovable lies, one has to retreat into the preposterous. The religious type of people at issue here are doing it in the name of their god, and the result is equally vile.

It's a bizarre second party confirmation. By that I mean that if they convince you by lying to you, they feel affirmed in their own beliefs, even though what they should feel is shame.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So anyway...

Why do people lie when they know what they're saying is a lie in order to convince someone of something?

There's also the case where they don't lie until some ways into the argument.

Some will come into a discussion of Noah needing a year's worth of food for his cargo and claim things like "Your reference to Noah's Ark and the world wide flood that the entire event was 1 year, is false. According to Genesis the flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights."

This is what they honestly believed to be true. It's easy to show scripture where the RAIN lasted 40 days. Noah, crew and sacrifices, and other animals were aboard for a year before the waters receded enough to disembark.

Then, rather than allow the atheist to demonstrate superior familiarity with the Word, they start coming up with justifications, like 'that's not the original translation' or 'the 'year' was figurative' or one guy even maintained that years were shorter, then.

 

[James Brown]

Sounds like the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

 

[Opoponax]

So anyway...

Why do people lie when they know what they're saying is a lie in order to convince someone of something?

There's also the case where they don't lie until some ways into the argument.

Some will come into a discussion of Noah needing a year's worth of food for his cargo and claim things like "Your reference to Noah's Ark and the world wide flood that the entire event was 1 year, is false. According to Genesis the flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights."

This is what they honestly believed to be true. It's easy to show scripture where the RAIN lasted 40 days. Noah, crew and sacrifices, and other animals were aboard for a year before the waters receded enough to disembark.

Then, rather than allow the atheist to demonstrate superior familiarity with the Word, they start coming up with justifications, like 'that's not the original translation' or 'the 'year' was figurative' or one guy even maintained that years were shorter, then.

But they still have that same basic and honest belief. They just have to re-figure how it all fits together. Or more commonly, they have some retarded brand of plausible deniability---like you said--they'll say it was figurative, or make some sort of half-assed allusion to some other language's interpretation. So I don't see that as an outright lie.

The lie that Famous Atheist was actually a Christian is the purposeful lie that's so fucking vile on on several levels. First, the liar seems to understand that Famous Atheist was quite admirable. Thus, they want this person on their side, but they know Famous Atheist was an atheist. Second, they have to intentionally manufacture some bullshit about how the guy was really a Jesus freak because if he wasn't into Jesus it shows the Bible was wrong about X, or that a moral life can be lived without Jesus, or something the liar believes in can be shown to be wrong by Famous Atheist, etc. Third, they have to make the decision to take their lie to some other person with the intent to lie to them in order to convince them of the superiority of their beliefs, which at this point, they should know are wrong because Famous Atheist, the person they're lying about, has already proven them wrong. Finally, they then actually lie.

It's a really fucked up process that denies the truth, their own conscience, harms others, and doesn't cause this type of person the slightest introspection. I despise these people whether it be over religion, politics, or in any other field.

 

[atrib]

deleted...

 

[atrib]

WTF? I never claimed he was a Christian at the time of his death.
Use the quote function pal!

...or stop pretending that lying bothers you

You said Darwin and Lincoln were "both great Christian men". How else is one to interpret that? You never made the clarification that "oh he wasn't a Christian at the time of his death though". Oh so I guess he wasn't a Christian!

(EDITED) or it will keep coming back.

 

[Lion IRC]

No, but standing and pretending to make religious vows before God makes you a liar.
Are the atheists here accusing Darwin of faking his religion?

Why are you ignoring his clear skepticism towards his religion?

You wanna write my posts for me?
Fill in the blanks?
Where have I denied he said or wrote anything agnostic?

Are you accusing him of faking his skepticism?

No, I think you should take people at their word.
Check out the thread where atheists here are denying Lee Strobel was ever a "real" atheist.