Why do you only criticize MY religion?

[Underseer]

Dear Muslims,
We do not only criticize Muslims. It only seems that way to you.

Dear Christians,
We do not only criticize Christians. It only seems that way to you.

I suspect that the reason you see things that way is because you look at the world in a way that is inherently selfish or at least near-sighted. To you, things are only a problem when they affect you, and so you simply don't notice when the same things happen to other people. Maybe if you were half as moral as you claim, you would have more empathy. Or any empathy.

Yes, ex-Muslims in Muslim-majority countries will spend most of their time criticizing Islam, because that is what they are more familiar with, that is what most of the theists around them are practicing, and if there is any harm between religious groups, it is probably going to be the religious majority doing unfair things to religious minorities. The fact that Muslim minorities in some other countries are being persecuted does not rationalize your persecution of religious minorities in your country.

Yes, ex-Christians in Christian-majority countries will spend most of their time criticizing Christianity, because that is what they are more familiar with, that is what most of the theists around them are practicing, and if there is any harm between religious groups, it is probably going to be the religious majority doing unfair things to religious minorities. The fact that Christian minorities in some other countries are being persecuted does not rationalize your persecution of religious minorities in your country.

I know that the man in the pulpit feeds you a victim narrative to help make you feel like a special snowflake and to make sure you turn a blind eye when he wants to use the masses or the government to do something awful to this or that religious minority in the area, but the man in the pulpit is making you look like a selfish asshole with this victim narrative.

Muslims in Muslim-majority nations are not being persecuted by religious minorities. No, not by atheists either.

Christians in Christian-majority nations are not being persecuted by religious minorities. No, not by atheists either.

1. You are not the only one being criticized.
2. Criticism is not persecution.
3. Being asked to stop persecuting others is also not a form of persecution.

 

[bleubird]

My only criticism is that their holy books are a mess.All three have a history of redaction,forgery,destruction, burning of text.but the common christian or muslim
is ignorant of the history of their holy book.

 

[Learner]

Why do you only criticize MY religion?

I thought there was more than just the particular moral aspects being criticized. Like ... both religions believe in heaven and hell. Its that part that seems more offensive or distasteful to a lot of peoples. The contents of the OT is more or less shared /accepted with all Abrahamic faiths (without emphasis on Heaven and Hell - Judaism).

(I understand & acknowledge the criticism BTW)

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why do you only criticize MY religion?

I thought there was more than just the particular moral aspects being criticized. Like ... both religions believe in heaven and hell. Its that part that seems more offensive or distasteful to a lot of peoples. The contents of the OT is more or less shared /accepted with all Abrahamic faiths (without emphasis on Heaven and Hell - Judaism).

(I understand & acknowledge the criticism BTW)

Morality doesn't come from religion. See the Euthypro dilemma. Religious people keep saying that the reason they behave well is because of their religion. It's always been complete nonsense. You'd never belong to a religion you didn't already agree with. Plato figured it out, and wrote a solid text on it that still applies.

So you can stop now. You are religious for other reasons.

 

[Lion IRC]

Hey Learner, what's that bible verse about persecution and how we're supposed to stand around whining and feeling sorry for ourselves?

I'm having trouble finding it.

 

[steve_bank]

Along with Christians and Muslims I also criticize atheists.

 

[steve_bank]

Hey Learner, what's that bible verse about persecution and how we're supposed to stand around whining and feeling sorry for ourselves?

I'm having trouble finding it.

Turn the other cheek
The meek shall inherit the Earth
If you are a slave be a good one and a credit to your master.
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord

The faith in Christianity is suffering today endured leads to eternity in heaven.

 

[WAB]

I guess my problem is that I worry just as much about people the world over as I do for people in my own country.

I'd make a very shitty POTUS, because I don't care about the welfare of the American people any more than I do about any other people in any other nation. I don't care more about what affects me than I do about what affects people on the other side of the planet.

Pardon me for worrying more about women getting stoned to death than about comfortable first-worlders wondering and fussing about what delicious food they're going to eat next.

 

[Underseer]

My only criticism is that their holy books are a mess.All three have a history of redaction,forgery,destruction, burning of text.but the common christian or muslim
is ignorant of the history of their holy book.

Oh, the real issue is that they have failed to demonstrate that any of their truth claims are true.

However, I frequently run into this complaint from both Christians and Muslims: "Why do you only criticize my religion?"

To even ask a question like that is to reveal an incredibly selfish and un-empathic view of the world, never mind the obvious implication that criticism = persecution.

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't think vocal atheists (counter-apologists) only criticise my religion.
Having said that, I don't think they criticise ALL religions with equal enthusiasm.
#soft_targets

 

[Learner]

Hey Learner, what's that bible verse about persecution and how we're supposed to stand around whining and feeling sorry for ourselves?

I'm having trouble finding it.

Hey Lion, its one of those mysteries.(Atheists seem to know)

(I'll use as an excuse for future discussion )

 

[Learner]

Morality doesn't come from religion. See the Euthypro dilemma. Religious people keep saying that the reason they behave well is because of their religion. It's always been complete nonsense.

Some people DO behave-well because of their religion, its not the same for everyone obviously but it also happens in prisons where certain individuals change when they become religious.

Theres a "Samaritan" somewhere in a variety of groups, theists know this.

You'd never belong to a religion you didn't already agree with. Plato figured it out, and wrote a solid text on it that still applies.

So you can stop now. You are religious for other reasons.

Not sure about Plato,(not so familiar) I didn't agree with the theology at the time, when I used to debate against Christians etc... but I have a different (better) perspective now .

 

[DrZoidberg]

Morality doesn't come from religion. See the Euthypro dilemma. Religious people keep saying that the reason they behave well is because of their religion. It's always been complete nonsense.

Some people DO behave-well because of their religion, its not the same for everyone obviously but it also happens in prisons where certain individuals change when they become religious.

You've got the causality mixed up. They changed their values, and that attracted them to the religious group.

Granted that religion can make people do evil things that they otherwise wouldn't. But it's not because they're now evil, it's because it's something that doesn't influence them personally, and their in-group affirms the behaviour. I'm thinking about stuff like opposing gay marriage. While unfortunate, it's not because the person is evil. We used to throw refrigerators with freon on the tip. We stopped when we it became apparent to us that we were hurting others. I'm sure it's the same about religious people and gay marriage.

Theres a "Samaritan" somewhere in a variety of groups, theists know this.

Because people who are like that search and find groups where they can embrace that behaviour.

You'd never belong to a religion you didn't already agree with. Plato figured it out, and wrote a solid text on it that still applies.

So you can stop now. You are religious for other reasons.

Not sure about Plato,(not so familiar) I didn't agree with the theology at the time, when I used to debate against Christians etc... but I have a different (better) perspective now .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

It's one of the easiest philiosophical concepts to understand. There's no reason not to read it. Anybody can grasp this with minimal effort. You're welcome.

 

[Lion IRC]

Euthyphro isn't a dilemma.
You wouldn't ask;
Is acting wisely commanded by God because it is wise to act wisely, or is it wise to act wisely because it is commanded by God?

There's no dillema here.
Evil, immorality, sin = stupidity

Is stupidly stupid because God says don't act stupidly? Or does God say don't be stupid because it's stupid to act stupidly?
Does God act wisely because it is wise to act wisely?

See how meaningless it is for Euthyphro to construct such artificial dichotomies?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Euthyphro isn't a dilemma.
You wouldn't ask;
Is acting wisely commanded by God because it is wise to act wisely, or is it wise to act wisely because it is commanded by God?

There's no dillema here.
Evil, immorality, sin = stupidity

Is stupidly stupid because God says don't act stupidly? Or does God say don't be stupid because it's stupid to act stupidly?
Does God act wisely because it is wise to act wisely?

See how meaningless it is for Euthyphro to construct such artificial dichotomies?

How didn't you just argue against yourself?

Your statments work. A statement doesn't become wise because God says it's wise. The statement needs to be able to stand on its own in the real world. We don't use God as a way to measure the wisdom of the Bible. We use the real world to measure the wisdom of the statement. Which is the point of Euthyphro dilemma.

The goodness of an act has to do with the impact that act has in the real world. Not because the Bible says it's good.

BTW, stupidity is just the opposite of wisdom. So you said the same thing twice

 

[braces_for_impact]

Well, that's just stupid. And unwise.

 

[Lion IRC]

Euthyphro isn't a dilemma.
You wouldn't ask;
Is acting wisely commanded by God because it is wise to act wisely, or is it wise to act wisely because it is commanded by God?

There's no dillema here.
Evil, immorality, sin = stupidity

Is stupidly stupid because God says don't act stupidly? Or does God say don't be stupid because it's stupid to act stupidly?
Does God act wisely because it is wise to act wisely?

See how meaningless it is for Euthyphro to construct such artificial dichotomies?

How didn't you just argue against yourself?

Your statments work. A statement doesn't become wise because God says it's wise. The statement needs to be able to stand on its own in the real world. We don't use God as a way to measure the wisdom of the Bible. We use the real world to measure the wisdom of the statement. Which is the point of Euthyphro dilemma.

The goodness of an act has to do with the impact that act has in the real world. Not because the Bible says it's good.

BTW, stupidity is just the opposite of wisdom. So you said the same thing twice

Yes, rhetorical repetition for emphasis.
Tell me more about this argument from "real world"
Because it sounds like the very same method I use to show that Euthyphro is a false dilemma.
God does wise things because - in the real world - it is wise to do wise rhings.

It would be facile to ask God if it is good to do wise things. Euthyphro thinks he's being clever (sophistry IS fun) but it just doesn't comport with real world ontology to ask a wise person "...why do you act wisely? Is it because you are wise? Or are you a dumb person who unknowingly does wise things?"

Substitute the word "good" with "wise" and you unlock Euthyphro's mind-forged manacles.

 

[Jobar]

I cheerfully grant that since this is an English language board, *most* of the criticism here is usually directed at Christianity, it being the most common religion among English speakers. But many of the criticisms we direct at Christians are equally applicable to any other monotheistic faith.

 

[Elixir]

I mock all superstitions.

 

[Underseer]

I don't think vocal atheists (counter-apologists) only criticise my religion.
Having said that, I don't think they criticise ALL religions with equal enthusiasm.
#soft_targets

So there isn't a Bible verse specifically instructing Muslims and Christians to do this, therefore Muslims and Christians are not doing this?

Really?

Do I need to cite specific examples from reputable newspapers?