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Why people are afraid of universal health care

I've been on Medicare for 10 years, and have cared for people on Medicare for most of my 42 years as a professional nurse. I've never found that Medicare patients were treated any differently from patients who had private insurance. In fact, M'care recipients are often treated better, in my experience. I support M/care for all. If the younger folks were included, it would make care less expensive overall because most of the care we need is when we are older, statistically speaking of course.
The problem is more and more docs not taking Medicare.

When people have big copays, they often put off treatment. Even Advantage Plans have small copays, compared to some of the private insurance plans we had when younger. The biggest problem I have seen with Medicare is that people are often given aggressive end of life care or they demand aggressive end of life care. This is less of a problem compared to when I was younger and visited home health patients who were living with G-tubes and even respirators despite being almost in a vegetative state. Imo, aggressive end of life care is cruel, expensive and hospice would be a better option.
Agreed on end-of-life, but I think that's more an attitude problem. Too many doctors are focusing on the problem rather than the patient.
The problem in the US, is s that medical care if often all about profit and greed, so procedures and tests that aren't necessary are often ordered to make more money. Hopefully if we had government supported UHC, that would change over time. Doctors fuck up plenty of times, as they are only humans, but it rarely has a thing to do with which plan pays the bills. On the other hand, I have seen people without any insurance or money who were treated poorly. I saw it in home health. If a person had no way to pay, they were given about 2 visits. If a person had Medicare, they were sometimes over treated so the agency could make extra money or as one administrator put it, "we must maximize profit". That were her exact words when I was working in QA during the 90s. That's just my opinion as one who has worked as a health care professional and one who is a Medicare recipient.

Btw, I refuse a lot of things that I don't feel are necessary. I don't like to abuse the system. I support bodily autonomy and if I'm wrong for refusing something, that's on me.
Doctors rarely make money off tests. I do agree there's a problem, though.
Where I live, every doctor takes Medicare, maybe because the area is full of older adults. On the other hand, I've had private insurance that some doctors didn't take, when we were both working and I'm not referring to an HMO. There are a small percentage of doctors that don't take insurance at all, so you have to do your own billing, but they are all or mostly all in Atlanta, where there are plenty of other doctors. I go for convenience. I don't want to have to drive far or have someone drive me far, so I'll take my chances with the local doctors. I've also read that a lot of doctors are so tired of dealing with private health insurance denying things as well as being pushed to make profits for corporately owned health care groups, that more doctors are supporting MfA. I doubt it will happen but we need UHC. The premiums could be based on income, like Part B Medicare is. The system we have now is a terrible mess.
Or to more placate lobby's who must have private healthcare. Perhaps covering Medicare for everyone including the young for the rare and potentially lethal maladies like a young person getting cancer. But let the private industry complete (as they already do today) for more the less severe and common non lethal maladies (like breaking a bone, tonsils, child bearing, etc) which the patient has more time to consider. You would think even the conservatives would see the wisdom of that.
 
Anyway... This is going to be a long post.

Universal Health Care in and of itself is a fine idea. The devil is in the details.

When you're talking about UK or Canada, The government pays the bills and they set the prices. There are often quite long wait time for less common procedures and for diagnostics or surgeries; there are often much quicker turn arounds for minor illnesses and injuries. It can work well, but it's not without challenge.

In the US there are several different factors involved, and it's not all one thing.

Some people object to UHC for philosophical reasons.

For many people, the tax trade-off is a problem. It might seem trivial to say "oh, but you'll see the benefit of those taxes and it will be better". The problem is that a large amount of health insurance in the US is provided by employers, and those employers frequently pay 90% or more of the aggregate costs - excluding cost shares (deductibles, copays, coinsurance, etc). Many employees will pay less than $100 per month for their health care coverage, because their employer is paying $900+. There's a lot of variation involved, so consider that a very broad average. It varies by the ages of the workforce as well as the part of the country; it cost a lot more for a person in NYC than it does in KC, for example. All of this creates a layer of complication that often gets little thought when we're talking about UHC. Realistically, if UHC goes into place, it's unlikely that employers are going to increase everyone's wages by the same amount they were paying for insurance - there's a very high likelihood that many employers would pocket a good chunk of that as profit, or use it to expand their business, or cover debts, or any number of other expenditures instead of giving it directly back to their employees. The result of this employer dynamic is that for many people, they would see their taxes go up by more than they pay directly for their care, but they would not see their wages go up. For many people, it's likely to result in higher taxes with no additional benefit to them.

One of the other challenges is that the providers in the US are generally for-profit. Not just the doctors, but also the hospitals, the stand alone facilities, the urgent care centers, the labs, the diagnostic facilities, the device manufacturers, and the pharmaceutical companies. Every cog in that process is making money off of people's illnesses and injuries. Insurers have their profitability capped, due to minimum loss ratio requirements from PPACA - we are required to spend at least 80% of our premium revenue on customer health expenses. If we don't spend that much, we give the money back to our customers in the form of a rebate.

Most of the proposals for UHC put forth by congress in the US have been framed as "guaranteed insurance benefits", much more similar to Medicare where the customer still has cost sharing for their coverage. Those proposals haven't included any measures to reduce the cost of delivered care, which means that it's still going to be very expensive. An expansion of Medicare to include a younger population would be a really good start... but that gets push back from the entire medical community because Medicare's fee schedule isn't as high as they would like it to be - it doesn't give them enough profit to keep building new fancy medical centers in highly populated urban areas, regardless of the fact that there isn't a need for more hospitals or infusion centers there, and less populous areas are in health care deserts with no reasonable care available to residents at all.

There are some reasonable possibilities out there. Maryland did a thing a while back that has been working pretty well by all accounts - the state more or less defined the fee schedule for all services and all hospitals in the state, and that's just what providers get. IIRC (and I might not) they use the same schedule for all employer, individual, and Medicaid coverage - I think it doesn't supplant Medicare fee schedules though. Despite all their complaints, hospitals and doctors haven't gone bankrupt and it hasn't caused delays in accessing care.

I generally like the idea of making the delivery of healthcare a public good. Under my preferred approach, all doctors, nurses, hospitals, and other facilities would be owned and operated by the federal government, with professional staff paid a salaried wage. The government could then set a reasonable fee schedule to charge insurers - and potentially even offset the needed taxes through that means. It would allow employers to continue providing health insurance to their employees, since that's one of the ways that companies compete for staff. It would allow the current insurance industry to continue under something much more like Medicare Advantage. I think that would cause the greatest benefit to citizens with the least disruption and job loss. I'm sure there are some wrinkles that need to be ironed out, but that's generally my starting point.
 
Doctors rarely make money off tests. I do agree there's a problem, though.
Doctors don't, but labs do.
Sometimes doctor own labs they send their patients to. And imaging centers.
Corporations generally own labs and imaging centers. There might be some very few exceptions, but doctors don't own them - more likely the doctors are employed by the same corporation that owns the labs and imaging centers.
 
No economic system is effective unless it gives everyone the living standards of Elon Musk or Bill Gates. Capitalism, Socialism, Up the Arse-sm, and any other ism hasn't reached this goal so they all fail.;)
 
Has any country reverted or plans to revert back to US style retail health insurance?
It gets proposed a lot, by politicians who are swayed by the big money interests who can see an opportunity to siphon off vast sums (as we see happening in the US).

The voting public generally respond very negatively to the idea.

In the UK, the NHS is the most popular branch of government by far. The public love the NHS, despite its desparate underfunding by politicians who have been trying to make it less popular, so they can jump on the gravy train.
 
Been on medicare for about 20 years and tis has been a much better experience than when I was employed and the employer provided medical coverage through Cigna. Had a lengthy dispute with Cigna on my wife's medical coverage which we eventually won. Have not had a single issue with Medicare including bilateral colloquial implants because I basically went deaf.
 
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Needing to eat is neither an indulgence nor an offence, but a misfortune. So if the above quote attributed* to Bevan were valid reasoning then it would imply agriculture should be socialized food should be provided to hungry people
FTFY. :rolleyesa:
I was hungry this morning. The cost of providing me breakfast should have been shared by the community.
ummm... soup kitchen? Food banks? DUH!
 
My anecdote.
Seven years ago I needed bypass surgery. Since I lived in a city that did not have great cardiology department. I flew to Seattle.
Got a CABG 4 at one of the best hospitals on the west coast.
Never at any time did I feel like I was not given the best treatment.
A private insurer would have been billed $150,000.
After what Medicare paid and some grant money, my share was a few thousand dollars.
 
My anecdote.
Seven years ago I needed bypass surgery. Since I lived in a city that did not have great cardiology department. I flew to Seattle.
Got a CABG 4 at one of the best hospitals on the west coast.
Never at any time did I feel like I was not given the best treatment.
Yeah, but that was not UHC, so you had no need to be afraid!!!!
 
Doctors rarely make money off tests. I do agree there's a problem, though.
Doctors don't, but labs do.
Sometimes doctor own labs they send their patients to. And imaging centers.
I was going to mention that. I once went to a cardiologist who insisted I have a lot of imo, unnecessary procedures. The group owned all of the equipment for the tests. The problem was that I had been misdiagnosed by an ER doctor and I felt pretty strongly about that. I did agree to have a 24 hour heart monitor. It came back normal except for some PVCs, a common irregular beat that is almost always benign. The cardiologist wanted me to have more expensive tests, but I refused and never went back. That happened over 15 years ago and I'm still alive, without any symptoms of heart disease. I'm not claiming that all doctors are greedy but quite a few are.

Another time, I went to one because I was severely anemic, but nobody bothered to check my CBC, so they thought I had some serious heart disease. I agreed to have an ultrasound which was normal but refused to have the other tests that were ordered. Once again, all of the equipment was owned by the group and the very nice female doctor was fine with me refusing the other tests.

Finally, a rheumatologist I saw for my arthritic pain did a CBC and discovered I was severely anemic. That happened over 25 years ago. A CBC is a common test that should probably be checked yearly on all adults. Then my primary doc was convinced I had a GI bleed. Nope, the tests were all normal. Why the fuck did my primary doc and the cardiologists not even consider that my symptoms which included mild palpitations might be related to something as simple as anemia? I don't expect perfection from doctors, but I did find it strange that nobody bothered to check a CBC on a 50 year old woman who was a bit tired and having mild palpitations on exertion.

On my own, I discovered that drinking too much tea can inhibit the absorbing of iron, so I cut back drastically on my tea intake and while I still have anemia at times, it's never been as low as it was that year. That was long before I was on Medicare. Now my CBC is checked too often imo and I'm pushed to take iron even when I don't feel I need it. I've found that doctors push even more aggressive care on me since I've been on Medicare. Maybe because I'm an older adult, but I find it annoying to be nagged to have tests done that I don't want.

I will add this. A lot of doctors don't take Medicaid, the federally and state funded insurance for the poor. It reimburses a bit less than Medicare, which older adults and the disabled who have paid in for at least ten years during their working lives all are entitled to at age 65 or 2 years after receiving SS for a disability. If we all had Medicare that would solve that problem. I had problems finding doctors for some of my poorest patients who had never been able to work and only had Medicaid for insurance. Even when Medicaid is the secondary insurance, some doctors won't take it. I know that from experience working as a nurse and advocating for some people who had Medicare with Medicaid for back up. Advantage Plans may have solved some of that problem, but I haven't worked in 6 years, so I'm not sure of all the details. Yes. Our system is a mess!
 
Isn't insurance intended to protect from very expensive misfortunes? People don't buy house insurance that pays the water bill, but doesn't reimburse for fire or flood damage "because the premiums for such coverage would be too high."

Or to more placate lobby's who must have private healthcare. Perhaps covering Medicare for everyone including the young for the rare and potentially lethal maladies like a young person getting cancer. But let the private industry complete (as they already do today) for more the less severe and common non lethal maladies (like breaking a bone, tonsils, child bearing, etc) which the patient has more time to consider. You would think even the conservatives would see the wisdom of that.

Make insurance useless? Why not just abolish private health insurance and divert tens of thousands of laid-off insurance employees to performing useful work?
 
That happened over 15 years ago and I'm still alive, without any symptoms of heart disease. I'm not claiming that all doctors are greedy but quite a few are.
Heh. Before he hooked up with his PA, pulled up stakes and left town, my previous Doc referred me to a slew of specialists. I started cancelling screenings/tests immediately, but kept the consultation appointments. So far the only consult that did NOT make me feel free and unconcerned about declining stuff, was with the dermatologist, who helped me get rid of the pre-cancerous lesions that came from sun exposure. Other than that …I took a pass on most all the rest. I cancelled the “follow up consultation” with the cardiologist yesterday. He had some concern about swelling of the lower aorta, but all they can do is scan after scan after scan - no mention of interventions in case they don’t like what the scans show. From what I gather, it would come down to “ok you’re gonna die, go into hospice”.
I am not interested in spending the rest of my life trying to extend the rest of my life. But I am very interested in how much of our total medical resources are going to unnecessary, possibly harmful, and manifestly ineffective procedures, tests and treatments. I think UHC would cut down on that crap.
 
This anecdote is exceptionally trivial (as compared to talk of breast cancer, double knee replacements, et al) but I offer it only because it happened yesterday.
My wife and I both got the current flu shot and COVID vaccination shot —one in each arm— and the total was $20 per shot for a bill of $80. Not exorbitant or unreasonable, most would agree.
The two aspects I found more objectionable were
A) to get that price, I had to go way across town (I know; waah, waah, first-world problems. Then again, this is Cleveland, Ohio, not some podunk town with two traffic lights.) Most of the much closer providers, like CVS/Walgreen’s/Rite Aid drugstores, would have charged $100 for each COVID shot and around $30 for each flu shot, so about $260 total. I could have gone to my primary care physician’s office, but, no shot without a complete physical (!) and the COVID would still be about $100 (and flu would be…either free, or like $7 or so.)
B) I have private insurance now; a decent plan that costs about $500 per month. (I retired from an excellent, comprehensive corporate-subsidized plan almost two years ago.) In those (almost) two years, knock on wood, I’ve never used my health care for so much as a sprained ankle, meaning, I’ve paid around $12,000 into this system, while taking out NOTHING, and yet…PREVENTITIVE care like flu shots are not covered—at all. That seems fundamentally wrong to me—more accurately, perhaps, it reflects just who this arrangement is really meant to benefit—and its inequities like this that make me envy UHC systems abroad.
Now, I realize a couple of things: I could have opted for a health care plan that covered more routine/preventative procedures—but…at what premium cost?
$500 a month already feels steep—especially considering what it’s done for me, which, again, is nothing.
The other thing I get is that, if I had NOT been so healthy/fortunate these past two years (or if I get hit by a bus tomorrow), that insurance suddenly starts looking pretty good. Healthy payees (like me) are kinda subsidizing those less-fortunate souls who are physical wrecks (whether through poor lifestyle choices like smoking/overeating/drug addiction, or genuinely “blameless” afflictions, accidents and such) and that if that were suddenly me some day, I’d be the one benefiting. That’s basically health insurance in a nutshell (at least, American style.) I am not yet old enough for Medicare/Medicaid, so that doesn’t impact the situation.
I just know that, as a country, America could—and should—do better than this. I won’t pretend to know the answer…but what we have is broken.
 
I don't remember how far back.

There was a conservatives propaganda campaign to discredit Canadian socialized health care. The guy who orchestrated eventually fessed up and said he was wrong.

Trump like conspiracy theories. Fear mongering that socialized health care in the USA would lead to socialism-communism and loss of freedoms. One of the old conservative arguments against social programs.

The privatized Medicare insurance programs are a good model.n for national health care It is all those Medicare Advantage insurance ads on TV.

The government gives Medicare money to private insincere companies who have to provide at keast the basic Medicare benefits. Insurance companies compete by adding benefits like dental care.

I have had Medicare Advantage for over 10 years, works fine.
 
Isn't insurance intended to protect from very expensive misfortunes? People don't buy house insurance that pays the water bill, but doesn't reimburse for fire or flood damage "because the premiums for such coverage would be too high."
Hush. You're making too much sense. If health insurance actually worked like you suggest it would be one tenth the cost.
 
I don't disagree with any of this, and nor do I understand how it is in any way related to my post, to which it apparently forms a reply.

The story presented in the OP is one of a patient being failed by a healthcare system. Such things shouldn't happen, but unfortunately all systems have imperfection, so you can find such stories anywhere. Including amongst Americans with top-notch insurance.

As such, it is disingenuous to the point of outright falsehood, for the OP to present this tragic story as a flaw in the idea of UHC, that would somehow cause a rational person to prefer the clearly inferior US healthcare model, or to fear UHC.
The problem here is that it's not a patient being failed, but that widespread failure is the normal operating mode. She's not simply saying she was mistreated, she's simply giving her case as an example of the problem.
 
Heh. Before he hooked up with his PA, pulled up stakes and left town, my previous Doc referred me to a slew of specialists. I started cancelling screenings/tests immediately, but kept the consultation appointments. So far the only consult that did NOT make me feel free and unconcerned about declining stuff, was with the dermatologist, who helped me get rid of the pre-cancerous lesions that came from sun exposure. Other than that …I took a pass on most all the rest. I cancelled the “follow up consultation” with the cardiologist yesterday. He had some concern about swelling of the lower aorta, but all they can do is scan after scan after scan - no mention of interventions in case they don’t like what the scans show. From what I gather, it would come down to “ok you’re gonna die, go into hospice”.
I am not interested in spending the rest of my life trying to extend the rest of my life. But I am very interested in how much of our total medical resources are going to unnecessary, possibly harmful, and manifestly ineffective procedures, tests and treatments. I think UHC would cut down on that crap.
I have been on an Advantage plan for five years. It's criminal how much money they waste trying to get my wife and myself into these additional procedures. I just got another call today to remind me about their additional "free" service. If it was actually insurance and not a money making boondoggle it wouldn't be so expensive.
 
The two systems have different types of failure. It's not a case of one being categorically better.
UHC is categorically and objectively better. Unless your measure of merit is how much profit the system makes.

In UHC systems, the total cost of the system is lower, patient outcomes are better for all but the wealthiest cohort of the population, patient stress levels are lower, long term financial consequences of illness or injury are less severe, long term medical consequences are less severe (particularly for lower income patients), and rates of uptake of preventative care and early intervention are higher.

Yoir attempt at a "both sides" argument is noted, and rejected as counterfactual.
So long as they continue to use equity as part of the measure of success I'm going to consider their evidence to be garbage. You don't put in a fudge factor unless the data doesn't say what you want without it. And the continual use of infant mortality data despite the fact that they admit it's an improper comparison. Once again, you don't use bad data if you have good data. And they have obfuscated it by changing it to say that some of the data can't properly be compared rather than saying the US data can't be properly compared. The reality is there is a huge data error caused by the line between stillbirth and infant mortality being blurry. We are the outlier on the infant mortality side, while the standard example of doing it right of Cuba is an outlier in the other direction. They get low infant mortality by not counting as births the ones that have no chance.
 
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