Why should RED-LINING be illegal?

[Trausti]

Everything is racist.

Never mind. This is a derail.

You started it with “environmental racism.”

 

[Arctish]

That segment from John Oliver includes a lot of information on red-lining and how minorities were concentrated in areas that were subject to devaluation through industrial development, dumping, land seizures, etc. It is pertinent to lumpenproletariat's questions.

Did you watch the video? What did you think of that proposed pipeline in Memphis meandering through the predominantly black neighborhoods instead of taking the much shorter direct route through the predominantly white ones? The cost of construction per mile of pipeline is very high. What was it about going through the black neighborhoods that made it worth the added construction cost?

 

[Swammerdami]

That segment from John Oliver includes a lot of information on red-lining and how minorities were concentrated in areas that were subject to devaluation through industrial development, dumping, land seizures, etc. It is pertinent to lumpenproletariat's questions.

Did you watch the video? What did you think of that proposed pipeline in Memphis meandering through the predominantly black neighborhoods instead of taking the much shorter direct route through the predominantly white ones? The cost of construction per mile of pipeline is very high. What was it about going through the black neighborhoods that made it worth the added construction cost?

I watched that video. Among sad stories: The soil in East Chicago is too poisonous for children to play in; this was known for many years before residents were informed.

Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.

There used to be very real issues with redlining. However, these days the discrimination cops need cases to justify their jobs.

It's true that relevant players are motivated by love of money rather than hatred of blacks. But institutional racism still acts. One stat from the John Oliver segment is that Blacks earning $200,000 are exposed to more air pollution than Whites earning $25,000. So the racial income gap, while itself egregious, is not the full story.

Loren, have you watched the John Oliver segment?

 

[TomC]

This definition is also mine (excluding reference to the 1930s), except that the above doesn't say what the "risky" designation is based on (or doesn't say accurately what it's based on). It's based on statistics such as the past credit record of that area, not on counting the number of Blacks or minorities there. But otherwise, the above definition of "redlining" is also mine.

I figured that this would be the problem.
That's not what I mean by redlining.

What I mean is more pernicious and racist. It used to be extremely common, but it's gone and has been for years.
Tom

 

[Bronzeage]

I am quite familiar with redlining. I have many friends who either pay a large amount for insurance, or sometimes decide they can't afford it at all. Most of these people are middle class whites, but a few of them are considered wealthy. The wealthy are less affected and the insurance allows them to enjoy a high standard of living in a high risk area. I am speaking of flood insurance.

This is a case where the red lines are drawn by the government because left to themselves, insurance companies would not offer flood insurance of any kind. The government regulates the flood insurance market, so that rates are kept artificially low and any single provider is not exposed to excess risk.

The result is an interesting economic model in play. Flood insurance allows land to be developed which otherwise would not be economically viable for housing, due to the risk of losing it all in a given period of time. This development changes the geography enough to increase the risk of previously marginal areas, so overall flood risk increases. Some properties have been declared 50% (and higher) losses 3 or 4 times in the past 40 years.

None of this would have happened if not for government regulation which created a insurance market for high risk properties, by drawing a red line around an area and requiring insurance companies to sell flood insurance to any who can afford it. A home owner is not required to be insured, but no bank will finance an uninsured property, which drastically affects market price.

So, if red lining is a problem, the government has shown it has a remedy. It just depends on who needs to be remediated.

 

[BH]

Hmmmm. if statistics show that more black people are arrested for shoplifting should I be able to charge black customers more if they come into my store to buy shoes, socks, and purses?

 

[TomC]

I am quite familiar with redlining. I have many friends who either pay a large amount for insurance, or sometimes decide they can't afford it at all.

I am speaking of flood insurance.

I'm not sure why you are comparing flood insurance to racial segregation.
One is risk management. One is socially enforced race segregation.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I am quite familiar with redlining. I have many friends who either pay a large amount for insurance, or sometimes decide they can't afford it at all.

I am speaking of flood insurance.

I'm not sure why you are comparing flood insurance to racial segregation.
One is risk management. One is socially enforced race segregation.
Tom

You don't think that socially enforced race segregation is dressed up in risk management in order for white bankers and realtors and neighborhoods to feel secure and not 'racist?'

 

[TomC]

You don't think that socially enforced race segregation is dressed up in risk management in order for white bankers and realtors and neighborhoods to feel secure and not 'racist?'

No. I don't.

I'm pretty sure that redlining is an issue where capitalism triumphed. The overtly racist policies of 1965 were good for business. Today they aren't. Raw greed overcame racism, in that particular instance.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Lumpenproletariat, please provide the definition of red-lining that you are using. I don't want to get into a multipage discussion of the illegality of racial discrimination and the Constitution's purpose to "promote the general Welfare" only to discover that you aren't using the common one.

There used to be very real issues with redlining. However, these days the discrimination cops need cases to justify their jobs.

Thus we get things like the claims of redlining some years back--paying no attention to the fact that what was going on makes more sense as the mortgage bankers considering another factor: expected appreciation.

Okay, nothing like self-fulfilling prophecy.

Which still doesn't address my point that it's the simplest assumption required to get a consistent picture.

Except the part where a bank is saying they won't loan money to the owner because in the future they won't see as much appreciation in the value of property because of the owner because of the race of the owner. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[TomC]

Except the part where a bank is saying they won't loan money to the owner because in the future they won't see as much appreciation in the value of property because of the owner It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Has this happened, in the last 30 years?
"because of the race of the owner."?

I don't think so. I think you're buying a bunch of crap from CRT proponents.
Tom

 

[TomC]

You don't think that socially enforced race segregation is dressed up in risk management in order for white bankers and realtors and neighborhoods to feel secure and not 'racist?'

No. I don't.

I'm pretty sure that redlining is an issue where capitalism triumphed. The overtly racist policies of 1965 were good for business. Today they aren't. Raw greed overcame racism, in that particular instance.
Tom

So, you are operating under the theory that your birth ushered in a brand new world where racism was vanquished—-by capitalism?

Lol. No.

This is the kind of unresponsive post I've come to expect.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Except the part where a bank is saying they won't loan money to the owner because in the future they won't see as much appreciation in the value of property because of the owner It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Has this happened, in the last 30 years?
"because of the race of the owner."?

I don't think so. I think you're buying a bunch of crap from CRT proponents.
Tom

Loren isn't much of a CRT'er. He stated it, not me.

 

[Toni]

This is the same as "Red-lining." It's not about race, or about your religion or sex preference. It's about higher risk for that insurance or loan you're applying for.

Perhaps you answered your own question here?

Objective risk management is quite different from forced race segregation. Maybe you don't understand what "redlining" means? I don't understand your OP?
Gimme a hint.
Tom

Maybe you don’t understand what redlining means.

Modern-day redlining: How banks block people of color from homeownership

Fifty years after the federal Fair Housing Act banned racial discrimination in lending, African Americans and Latinos continue to be routinely denied

www.chicagotribune.com

This is truly worth the read. Unfortunately my ability to cut and paste is really limited at the moment.

 

[Toni]

You don't think that socially enforced race segregation is dressed up in risk management in order for white bankers and realtors and neighborhoods to feel secure and not 'racist?'

No. I don't.

I'm pretty sure that redlining is an issue where capitalism triumphed. The overtly racist policies of 1965 were good for business. Today they aren't. Raw greed overcame racism, in that particular instance.
Tom

So, you are operating under the theory that your birth ushered in a brand new world where racism was vanquished—-by capitalism?

Lol. No.

This is the kind of unresponsive post I've come to expect.

It was responsive but I realized a moment after I posted that it probably could be seen as less than kind, so I deleted it. In the meantime, you responded.

Since you did respond, I’ll address what I see from a lot of well meaning white people who believe that they are enlightened and that racism, certainly racism codified in law and policy is a thing of the past—because they personally do not see it. It doesn’t affect them. Therefore, it’s all fixed. No longer an issue.

Unfortunately, society just has not changed as much as most of us would like to believe in the past 50-60 years. Sure, for the most part, gay people are much more accepted and have more rights. We’ll see how long that lasts if the SC overturns Roe V Wade. Some states are signaling a desire to return to a time when they did not have to accept interracial marriage or gay marriage or birth control. Hate is alive and well in the US, as is greed and insecurity.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Crime Score and Credit Score are routinely used in insurance and lending underwriting standards and rating. The redlining occurs when those same criteria are used as a substitute or proxy for race. I've always been on the other side of that argument - I'd love to insure the drug lord's house:

1. I can get more premium if it's in a higher crime area
2. No one is going to rob the drug lord
3. If someone did, they have "internal controls" to deal with it other than filing a claim and drawing attention to themselves

aa

 

[Harry Bosch]

Crime Score and Credit Score are routinely used in insurance and lending underwriting standards and rating. The redlining occurs when those same criteria are used as a substitute or proxy for race. I've always been on the other side of that argument - I'd love to insure the drug lord's house:

1. I can get more premium if it's in a higher crime area
2. No one is going to rob the drug lord
3. If someone did, they have "internal controls" to deal with it other than filing a claim and drawing attention to themselves

aa

Technically, redlining was literally a bank circling a neighborhood on a map that they didn't want to do business with. It was generally older areas with older homes. It was thought that these homes couldn't support a 30 year economic life (banks like to finance assets that have a longer life than the term of their loan). These areas tended to be owned by minorities.

 

[TomC]

It was responsive but I realized a moment after I posted that it probably could be seen as less than kind, so I deleted it. In the meantime, you responded.

It wasn't that it was unkind.
It was the flat out falsehood that I noticed.
I've come to expect that.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Crime Score and Credit Score are routinely used in insurance and lending underwriting standards and rating. The redlining occurs when those same criteria are used as a substitute or proxy for race. I've always been on the other side of that argument - I'd love to insure the drug lord's house:

1. I can get more premium if it's in a higher crime area
2. No one is going to rob the drug lord
3. If someone did, they have "internal controls" to deal with it other than filing a claim and drawing attention to themselves

aa

Technically, redlining was literally a bank circling a neighborhood on a map that they didn't want to do business with. It was generally older areas with older homes. It was thought that these homes couldn't support a 30 year economic life (banks like to finance assets that have a longer life than the term of their loan). These areas tended to be owned by minorities.

And in not lending such areas money, set the wheels in motion for the outcome they worried about.

 

[TomC]

Technically, redlining was literally a bank circling a neighborhood on a map that they didn't want to do business with.

That's not what it meant around here several decades ago.
I don't think it meant that most places in the USA.

Realtors and banks had to do business. Showing or financing homes to people on the wrong side of the redline for their race would put them out of business. That started changing by 1975. By 1985, such overt racism would destroy your business as effectively as not doing so would have done in 1965.

Society has changed hugely in the last few decades. "Redlining" has become a dogwhistle word for one variant of social extremism.
Tom