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Why would a reasonable person believe in God?

Science per se merely assumes materialism from a methodological perspective rather than a philosophical perspective.
Is it an assumption? I see it as a conclusion, perhaps even subconscious, based on overwhelming amounts of observation and experience.

It is an assumption, because the results are always interpreted as having a natural material cause, not a supernatural one. A conclusion would be a claim that follows from true premises, but it is not necessary to believe that all observable phenomena have material causes. Miracles (immaterial causes) are always logical possibilities. Since scientific arguments exclude such a possibility a priori, materialism (or physicalism) is an assumption, not something that is concluded from the results of the investigation under discussion.
 
I don't think we have sufficient understanding of how the universe works for science to accurately model the complex phenomena that have to be studied in order to address such questions. But we can still objectively ask the following question: Does killing the old lady provide a net increase to the well being of the community in which she resides, and the human species as a whole? And even if it did provide a net benefit, would the members of her community allow such an action, based on their own standards of acceptable behavior? I suspect the answer to that question will almost always be no. If the old lady is a serial killer who is caught in the act of taking another life, and killing her is the only way to stop her from doing so, the answer might be yes. Context is important. However, since you have provided zero context as to why we are considering ending the life of this old lady, the question cannot be answered. Sorry your "gotcha" didn't work.
I was responded to a question TGG Moggly posited in post 529
"With that thought in mind could you tell me what would constitute a claim that is not "testable." Recently in the thread you used "reason" and "rational justification" to defend your position. I would use the same words to defend mine. According to wiki anyway, scientism is the opinion that science and the scientific method are the best or only way to render truth about the world and reality. I am guessing you disagree with that opinion and am curious about how you relate it to "testability." I'm also curious, is it possible that you have a negative opinion of scientism and if so could you tell me why?"
The portion in italics (not my italics lest I get accused of altering posts) used a definition of scientism that talks of rendering truth about the world and reality. I was merely presuming that also meant questions known known as "moral". Could scientism get an answer to such questions.?
I am glad you did not use science i.e. measuring, testing, repeating etc. to answer the question I posed.

I am sorry you concluded it was a gotcha. It was not meant as that.
Note there is no dispute about the consequence of hitting the old lady. She will die. Science is clear on that.
Really? If you hit a million ladies over the head with a bat, the blow is guaranteed to kill them each and every time? How did you come to this conclusion?

I don't know if you think about killing old ladies on a regular basis (perhaps you have a really annoying mother in law), but most humans don't. I find it bizarre that you would even come up with something so extreme and grotesque. What was the point you were trying to make?
Abbadon provide a very concise and complete answer. Thank you Abbadon.
 
... Argument from ignorance.

Tigers! didn't say nobody else has met them.

I haven't met them either. If you've met a few then I guess there are some. The claim being addressed was that "atheists don't usually claim to have the answers" implying that theists usually do. That looks like an "extrapolation" from 1) [some] theists think they have knowledge of biology and cosmology from ancient books to 2) [many] theists think they "know it all". It's an exaggeration.

I have often wondered whether scientism can answer or test a certain class of question.
....
Can science tell us should we kill her?
I don't think we have sufficient understanding of how the universe works for science to accurately model the complex phenomena that have to be studied in order to address such questions...
You have to unscientifically decide what you think "well being" is and then figure out how to scientifically achieve it. No matter how you define "well being" it'll have subjective evaluation in it. There's no escaping it, and it's not clear how "good" it would be to be so totally objectified as that.

Note there is no dispute about the consequence of hitting the old lady. She will die. Science is clear on that.
... What was the point you were trying to make?
I understood the gist of the point is to contrast what science can't do (make a judgment about the goodness/badness of the old lady's murder) and what science can actually do (tell us the technicalities of how she died).
You explained that better than I did. Thank you.
Ultimately science is technicalities. We get some knowledge about the more objective aspects of reality from it, and this knowledge allows making gizmos and medicines. Which, for the most part, is nice.

Scientism on the other hand is people taking a big gigantic crap on science. They want it to be a kind of quasi-religion that gives all the answers (at least the ones judged to be important) because having all those answers gives lots of control. Which is the same basic screwed-up impulse as that among some theists who think their revelation-based knowledge let's them determine what's best for everyone. It's a kind of totalitarian impulse either way.
Indeed.
 
Doesn't an event really happen?
An event happening REQUIRES material.
No material, no event.
The material has objective existence: it was there before the event or the event could not occur.
The event has no objective existence of its own; it's a description of the behavior of material.
 
Science per se merely assumes materialism from a methodological perspective rather than a philosophical perspective.
Is it an assumption? I see it as a conclusion, perhaps even subconscious, based on overwhelming amounts of observation and experience.

It is an assumption, because the results are always interpreted as having a natural material cause, not a supernatural one. A conclusion would be a claim that follows from true premises, but it is not necessary to believe that all observable phenomena have material causes. Miracles (immaterial causes) are always logical possibilities. Since scientific arguments exclude such a possibility a priori, materialism (or physicalism) is an assumption, not something that is concluded from the results of the investigation under discussion.
You've illustrated the crux of the issue when it comes to defining science and if I might say, what is real versus what is imaginary. Personally I cannot comprehend, make sense of something being unnatural while also being real. How does that work? Can you provide examples? Of course not, because there are none. No one can provide such examples except as a form of entertainment. Can anyone provide examples of phenomena that are immaterial? Miracles are only logical if one accepts that illogical arguments are logical.

I think the larger issue remains scientific illiteracy, or at least recognizing the difference between reality and fantasy. Green angels might be logical and motion certainly moves, but only in our imaginations.
 
I was merely presuming that also meant questions known known as "moral". Could scientism get an answer to such questions.?
We can probe such questions using scientific methods and we do all the time. Those methods involve the collection of data and the application of statistical methods among other things. What is "moral" will always remain an identifiable behavior and nothing else, whether human or not, and certainly always natural, material and identifiable. We remain, however, eminently capable of identifying those behaviors as also possessing magical meanings.
 
Science per se merely assumes materialism from a methodological perspective rather than a philosophical perspective.
Is it an assumption? I see it as a conclusion, perhaps even subconscious, based on overwhelming amounts of observation and experience.

It is an assumption, because the results are always interpreted as having a natural material cause, not a supernatural one. A conclusion would be a claim that follows from true premises, but it is not necessary to believe that all observable phenomena have material causes. Miracles (immaterial causes) are always logical possibilities. Since scientific arguments exclude such a possibility a priori, materialism (or physicalism) is an assumption, not something that is concluded from the results of the investigation under discussion.
You've illustrated the crux of the issue when it comes to defining science and if I might say, what is real versus what is imaginary. Personally I cannot comprehend, make sense of something being unnatural while also being real. How does that work? Can you provide examples? Of course not, because there are none. No one can provide such examples except as a form of entertainment. Can anyone provide examples of phenomena that are immaterial? Miracles are only logical if one accepts that illogical arguments are logical.

Miracles are events that are not explainable by natural or scientific laws. You just assume that anything that is real will always be ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws, but you can't actually know that for a fact. You can only assume it to be true. Real magic would be an example of an act that violates your assumption, but I confess to not being able to show you real magic. I can only point to illusions that appear to violate natural laws but don't really do so. Like you, if I witness an alleged act of real magic, I assume that it is an illusion produced by a skilled illusionist. Logically, both of us could be wrong, but we just assume that we aren't on the basis of our life experience. Scientists assume that all physical events they observe conform to some, perhaps yet undiscovered, natural law. That's an assumption on their part, not a conclusion.


I think the larger issue remains scientific illiteracy, or at least recognizing the difference between reality and fantasy. Green angels might be logical and motion certainly moves, but only in our imaginations.


The imagination is a good place to look for violations of natural law. Science fiction and fantasy stories are also an excellent place to look for examples of the difference between reality and fantasy. I think that the larger issue is the assumption of substance dualism (aka  mind-body dualism)--that reality comes in two different forms: the spiritual and the material. Spiritual (mental) forces and material forces can somehow interact, but they never fully mix--like oil and water. Gods are usually thought of as immaterial, although we also have examples of so-called godmen. An alternative view is sometimes called  property dualism--that everything is ultimately material or physical but that thought is just a property of a specific configuration of physical reality. The philosophical literature has lots of interesting material on these subjects.
 
Miracles are events that are not explainable by natural or scientific laws.
Meaning, of course, that miracles are not real.
You just assume that anything that is real will always be ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws, but you can't actually know that for a fact.
Meaning the only thing factual we can ever know is that we cannot know what is real and what is not real? :)
I think that the larger issue is the assumption of substance dualism
Yes. And substance dualism is academic jargon that is somehow supposed to rationalize scientific illiteracy. At least that's the only way I can explain it, along with other words like immaterial, spiritual, unnatural, at least when these words are peddled in a scientific setting.

The larger issue may be the perception that any accrued knowledge is in some sense scientific and therefore acceptable. Something as superstitious as a bird hitting the window portending impending death isn't simple superstition because it doesn't get examined or challenged.

I agree that discussing superstition is a good thing, perhaps even believing in magic at a very young age. Maybe it acts as a bit of a vax in the long run. Ultimately, however, I am convinced at my wizened age :) that we're primarily genetically predisposed on the issue. Some of us are 6'2" and some of us are 5'4". We don't get to decide that. Same for a host of other human behaviors and conditions, including brain function which is as physical a thing as having fingernails. But people do like their woo. Oh, how they like their woo.
 
Miracles are events that are not explainable by natural or scientific laws.
Meaning, of course, that miracles are not real.

No, it just means that they aren't be explainable by natural or scientific laws if they are real. AFAIK, they aren't real.


You just assume that anything that is real will always be ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws, but you can't actually know that for a fact.
Meaning the only thing factual we can ever know is that we cannot know what is real and what is not real? :)


No, there is an infinite number of things that we cannot know. This is just one of them. :)


I think that the larger issue is the assumption of substance dualism
Yes. And substance dualism is academic jargon that is somehow supposed to rationalize scientific illiteracy. At least that's the only way I can explain it, along with other words like immaterial, spiritual, unnatural, at least when these words are peddled in a scientific setting.

The term is philosophical jargon that is definitely not intended to say anything at all about scientific literacy. Nor is it usually of much use in scientific discussions.
 
No, it just means that they aren't be explainable by natural or scientific laws if they are real. AFAIK, they aren't real.
That's a pretty big if. We can obviously test any person's claim that miracles are real by subjecting their claim to examination and experiment but I doubt we'd have many takers.
 
Miracles are events that are not explainable by natural or scientific laws. You just assume that anything that is real will always be ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws, but you can't actually know that for a fact.
Yes, you can.

The physics of everyday events is now completely understood; It's not possible in our theoretical framework for there to be unknown forces or particles influencing events on scales larger than nucleons but smaller than solar systems, so either all of modern physics is wrong (it's not, we checked), or any events not explicable by scientific laws are incapable of influencing anything we can detect in any way whatsoever.

The difference between something that has no effects and is undetectable, and something that doesn't exist, is of no real interest to me; Likewise I am not particularly concerned about hypothetical supernatural forces whose only effects are on the movement of galactic clusters.

The Standard Model, and the principle of mass-energy equivalence, do not permit the existence of unknown forces at energies below the maximum energy density achievable in the LHC. The discovery of the Higgs particle completes the theoretical model, and for there to be other influences on matter that are currently unknown at these energies would imply that quantum field theory and/or relativity are wildly wrong. We know that at least one is wrong (because they're incompatible at ultra high energy densities), but we have tested both sufficiently to know that neither is wrong enough for there to be any unknown influences under conditions compatible with human life.

For a hypothetical god to cause a hypothetical miraculous act on Earth would either influence several cubic lightyears of matter in the exact same way, or it would necessarily vapourise the lucky recipient of His miracle.

Or maybe all of physics is wrong, in ways that are obvious, extreme, and radical. But we didn't notice yet. I find that a fairly implausible claim, particularly when it's being made in support of supernatural phenomena that we have no good evidence for at all.

Insofar as it's possible to know anything about anything, it is not only possible, but has now been demonstrated, that supernatural phenomena cannot influence humanity in any way whatsoever. Which is another way of saying that such phenomena do not exist.

The great achievement of twentieth century physics was to unite everything (except gravity) into a single model. That unification closes the gaps, and gods of the gaps are thereby eradicated as possibilities. That you aren't personally aware that there are no longer any gaps to fit a hypothetical supernatural into isn't an indication that such gaps might still exist, it's just an indication that you don't yet understand modern particle physics. That's OK, most people haven't the time nor the inclination to study such a narrow field to the necessary depth. And even those who do, were quite surprised to realise the wider implications for philosophical arguments that, at first glance, don't appear to be related to particle physics at all.

Substance dualism has been proven to be wrong, by the simple expedient of demonstrating all of the ways in which matter can be influenced. There cannot be any remaining unknowns, unless everything we know, and rely on daily, is completely wrong. And it's not. We checked.

Substance dualism is exactly equivalent to asserting E≠mc2. It can only be true if all the stuff we currently know is false. Which leads me to wonder just how incredibly lucky we must be that it works anyway.
 
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The physics of everyday events is now completely understood...

You know better than to say something like that. We don't need to completely understand reality in order to reject belief in the supernatural. Scientists do not claim to understand anything completely. Why compete with religious fanatics in making dogmatic claims? They are better at it than you will ever be.
 
The physics of everyday events is now completely understood...

You know better than to say something like that. We don't need to completely understand reality in order to reject belief in the supernatural. Scientists do not claim to understand anything completely. Why compete with religious fanatics in making dogmatic claims? They are better at it than you will ever be.
I understand your dogmatic need to reject that bold claim; That was my first response to this claim too.

But it remains true.

Sean Carroll explains it more eloquently than I can:

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...s-of-everyday-life-are-completely-understood/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...eryday-life-really-are-completely-understood/

Note that this is not a claim that the laws of physics are completely understood; Nor is it implied anywhere that we need to completely understand reality in order to reject belief in the supernatural.

It's just an inevitable consequence of steadily increasing understanding of physics, combined with the very narrow range of energy densities compatible with everyday human life. We now know enough to demonstrate that substance dualism isn't possible.

That doesn't mean that we don't enjoy making provocative claims that inspire philosophers to berate us as being "religious fanatics", as a knee-jerk response to a startling (but, shockingly. true) statement about everyday life.

We know everything about almost nothing; But that "almost nothing" is enough to encompass all of everyday human experience, because everything is very very large indeed.
 
We know everything about almost nothing; But that "almost nothing" is enough to encompass all of everyday human experience, because everything is very very large indeed.
This is true. I don't see any need to bring words like "dogmatic" into the discussion. There isn't any evidence that miracles or other woo claims are real. That being the case it is quite reasonable to say these things are just hokum. Saying they are hokum based on everything we know doesn't make a person dogmatic. In my opinion it just makes a person honest. If, however, I maintain that claimed phenomena clearly debunked by evidence are still real then I'm the person being dogmatic.
 
What about a belief? This is my favorite quote from Michael Gazzaniga:

“Sure, we are vastly more complicated than a bee. Although we both have automatic responses, we humans have cognition and beliefs of all kinds, and the possession of a belief trumps all the automatic biological process and hardware, honed by evolution, that got us to this place. Possession of a belief, though a false one, drove Othello to kill his beloved wife, and Sidney Carton to declare, as he voluntarily took his friend’s place at the guillotine, that it was a far, far better thing he did than he had ever done.”
Gazzaniga, Michael S. “Who's in Charge?: Free Will and the Science of the Brain” (pp. 2-3). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
 
the possession of a belief trumps all the automatic biological process and hardware, honed by evolution, that got us to this place.
That statement is clearly false, I assume it is referring to conscious beliefs. Consider your ability to breathe and your heart to beat, functions which have nothing to do with what you believe.
 
the possession of a belief trumps all the automatic biological process and hardware, honed by evolution, that got us to this place.
That statement is clearly false, I assume it is referring to conscious beliefs. Consider your ability to breathe and your heart to beat, functions which have nothing to do with what you believe.
A list of the things that do not rely upon belief does not eliminate anything from the list of things that do rely upon belief. There's probably a logical fallacy involved but I don't know what it's called. But Gazzaniga gave the example of Othello killing his wife because he believed she was unfaithful. And we can attribute the storming of the Capitol on Jan 6th to the belief that Trump was the winner of the 2020 election. So, beliefs can cause events.
 
The physics of everyday events is now completely understood...

You know better than to say something like that. We don't need to completely understand reality in order to reject belief in the supernatural. Scientists do not claim to understand anything completely. Why compete with religious fanatics in making dogmatic claims? They are better at it than you will ever be.
I understand your dogmatic need to reject that bold claim; That was my first response to this claim too.

But it remains true.

Sean Carroll explains it more eloquently than I can:

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...s-of-everyday-life-are-completely-understood/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...eryday-life-really-are-completely-understood/

Note that this is not a claim that the laws of physics are completely understood; Nor is it implied anywhere that we need to completely understand reality in order to reject belief in the supernatural.

It's just an inevitable consequence of steadily increasing understanding of physics, combined with the very narrow range of energy densities compatible with everyday human life. We now know enough to demonstrate that substance dualism isn't possible.

That doesn't mean that we don't enjoy making provocative claims that inspire philosophers to berate us as being "religious fanatics", as a knee-jerk response to a startling (but, shockingly. true) statement about everyday life.

We know everything about almost nothing; But that "almost nothing" is enough to encompass all of everyday human experience, because everything is very very large indeed.

I really like Sean Carroll and have read a couple of his books. I found Something Deeply Hidden to be one of the best plain language accounts of quantum mechanics and Everett's MWI that I have ever read. Nevertheless, he is just talking about the basic laws of physics as seen through the lens of modern science. He begins to walk back his provocative claim when he says:

Obviously there are plenty of things we don’t understand. We don’t know how to quantize gravity, or what the dark matter is, or what breaks electroweak symmetry. But we don’t need to know any of those things to account for the world that is immediately apparent to us. We certainly don’t have anything close to a complete understanding of how the basic laws actually play out in the real world — we don’t understand high-temperature superconductivity, or for that matter human consciousness, or a cure for cancer, or predicting the weather, or how best to regulate our financial system. But these are manifestations of the underlying laws, not signs that our understanding of the laws are incomplete. Nobody thinks we’re going to have to invent new elementary particles or forces in order to understand high-Tc superconductivity, much less predicting the weather.

Nothing in that essay contradicts my statement to TGG Moogly, which you explicitly rejected in post #573:

Copernicus said:
Miracles are events that are not explainable by natural or scientific laws. You just assume that anything that is real will always be ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws, but you can't actually know that for a fact.

He was taking the position that he did not understand how it made sense to call anything a miracle, since whatever was real was ipso facto explainable by natural or scientific laws. My point was that people disagree on what is real. Materialists think that only material things are real. Spiritualists believe that mental phenomena are real but of a fundamentally different category of reality. Bishop Berkeley believe that everything was mental and nothing actually material. Understanding the concepts of miracles, the occult, and the supernatural does not mean we have to agree with people who think they are real.

I think that I've been pretty clear on these points, and I stand by my claim that scientists assume that the physical world is all there is. They act on that assumption, and it has given them a remarkable track record of successes in predicting how reality behaves. Supernaturalism has a dismal record of failure. That is why so many of us would rather place our faith in scientific explanations than religious ones.
 
I think that I've been pretty clear on these points, and I stand by my claim that scientists assume that the physical world is all there is. They act on that assumption, and it has given them a remarkable track record of successes in predicting how reality behaves. Supernaturalism has a dismal record of failure. That is why so many of us would rather place our faith in scientific explanations than religious ones.
If scientists "assume" then what are supernaturalists doing? How would one describe their behavior in this sense? Give me your thoughts. Be the hidden anthropologist observing human behavior and having to differentiate between two groups of homo sapiens. One group is observed to proceed scientifically, ostensibly making all those "assumptions" you claim. The other group's behavior can be described as ___________.

Fill in the blank, describe the behavior of the other group, the group of supernaturalists, the substance-dualists. What are they doing that clearly and notably distinguishes their behavior from the other group to the objective and unbiased observer?
 
I think that I've been pretty clear on these points, and I stand by my claim that scientists assume that the physical world is all there is. They act on that assumption, and it has given them a remarkable track record of successes in predicting how reality behaves. Supernaturalism has a dismal record of failure. That is why so many of us would rather place our faith in scientific explanations than religious ones.
If scientists "assume" then what are supernaturalists doing? How would one describe their behavior in this sense? Give me your thoughts. Be the hidden anthropologist observing human behavior and having to differentiate between two groups of homo sapiens. One group is observed to proceed scientifically, ostensibly making all those "assumptions" you claim. The other group's behavior can be described as ___________.

Fill in the blank, describe the behavior of the other group, the group of supernaturalists, the substance-dualists. What are they doing that clearly and notably distinguishes their behavior from the other group to the objective and unbiased observer?
Good point. Pragmatically, both the naturalists and the supernaturalists must somehow cope with the same real world. The supernaturalists will curb their claims as needed. For example, they will insist that "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is No". Or they will say "God helps those who help themselves". A person may believe that if they have the faith of a mustard seed they could move a mountain, but they will still employ heavy equipment operators. My mother always took us to the doctor when ill, rather than relying upon faith healing, pointing out that God was working through the doctors. When I asked her about evolution, she pointed out that "a thousand years is as a day to the Lord", which made God's creation in six days consistent with Darwin.
 
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