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Why you should vote for Trump

So, you support Biden unconditionally, because he is the chosen voice of the party you support unconditionally.

Unless some dark horse party comes out of nowhere with a candidate I consider more competent and more friendly to my preferences, yeah - other than some conditions, my support for Biden is “unconditional”. 🙄 So what?

I must admit that at this point it seems very likely I will vote for Biden.
I probably will too, if it comes to that. What people are losing their fucking shit about is that I dared to publically express doubt about whether it was the right thing to do.
 
So, you support Biden unconditionally, because he is the chosen voice of the party you support unconditionally.

Unless some dark horse party comes out of nowhere with a candidate I consider more competent and more friendly to my preferences, yeah - other than some conditions, my support for Biden is “unconditional”. 🙄 So what?

I must admit that at this point it seems very likely I will vote for Biden.
I probably will too, if it comes to that. What people are losing their fucking shit about is that I dared to publically express doubt about whether it was the right thing to do.
I admit that knowing you have a throwaway vote at the top of the ticket presents the temptation to cast a symbolic, protest or statement vote. And CO is approaching full blue status, so those thoughts are definitely in play for me, too. But my “statement” this round will almost certainly be to express solidarity with Trump’s most viable opposition.
 
ivory tower ideological purist
Opposition to genocide, you mean? I think you've been reading the wrong history books, the "ivory tower" is usually the first in line to provide rational justifications for the unthinkable.
I'm voting against a nuclear apocalypse brought about by the Christian fascists who want the End Times to occur. I guess I'm morally superior to you.
 
ivory tower ideological purist
Opposition to genocide, you mean? I think you've been reading the wrong history books, the "ivory tower" is usually the first in line to provide rational justifications for the unthinkable.
I'm voting against a nuclear apocalypse brought about by the Christian fascists who want the End Times to occur. I guess I'm morally superior to you.
Oh Yeah?
I’m voting against the
END OF THE UNIVERSE
brought about by ivory tower physicists intervening in god’s plan!
Beat that!
 
To criticize Biden at all, even on matters where he and Trump are in apparent agreement, is to be responsible for the Fall of Western Civilization, apparently. That's why I'm feeling a bit salty here. Biden is one of our best presidents, in truth, especially in domestic matters. But the grim, mostly violent history of that office is not setting one hell of a precedent for considering any US president a moral paragon, and signing away my own conscience altogether just to support his next campaign is not something I'm inclined to do, especially now that "campaign season" seems to take up more than half of a presidential term. If you want me to shut up, take my rights in a more substantial fashion. Stuffing soap in my mouth or wagging a "disappointed" finger about how smart you thought used to think I was isn't going to do the trick. I'm not a fairweather contrarian, I'm like this all the time.
 
To criticize Biden at all, even on matters where he and Trump are in apparent agreement, is to be responsible for the Fall of Western Civilization, apparently.

Prob’ly so. But far be it from me to deprive you of that right. 😇

That's why I'm feeling a bit salty here. Biden is one of our best presidents, in truth, especially in domestic matters. But the grim, mostly violent history of that office is not setting one hell of a precedent for considering any US president a moral paragon, and signing away my own conscience altogether just to support his next campaign is not something I'm inclined to do.
I think anyone arguing in good faith here will support your disinclination (if not your inactions! :hysterical:).
If you want me to shut up, take my rights in a more substantial fashion. Stuffing soap in my mouth isn't going to do the trick.
Taking your rights would be wrong. But if you want someone to take them, I do have a very solid suggestion … 😋

Why you should vote for Trump​

 
To support Biden at all is to be responsible for genocide apparently.
I said nothing of the sort. I support Biden on a great many issues. But not this issue, no. I reject genocide, or religious ethnocide, as a political strategy. Full stop and without exception. I have never felt otherwise, and accept no shame for that position. Neither should any Israeli or friend of Israel, if you ask me. It's like everyone forgot why that state even exists... whether you prefer Judaism or Islam should not be the deciding factor in whether you or your children have a right to life, neither whether you are ethnically Arab or Ashkenazi.
 
To criticize Biden at all, even on matters where he and Trump are in apparent agreement, is to be responsible for the Fall of Western Civilization, apparently. That's why I'm feeling a bit salty here. Biden is one of our best presidents, in truth, especially in domestic matters. But the grim, mostly violent history of that office is not setting one hell of a precedent for considering any US president a moral paragon, and signing away my own conscience altogether just to support his next campaign is not something I'm inclined to do, especially now that "campaign season" seems to take up more than half of a presidential term. If you want me to shut up, take my rights in a more substantial fashion. Stuffing soap in my mouth or wagging a "disappointed" finger about how smart you thought used to think I was isn't going to do the trick. I'm not a fairweather contrarian, I'm like this all the time.
??? Biden is miles away in policy from Trump regarding Israel/Gaza. Please read the earlier posts. Regardless. I think that when you and Derec are in agreement on a politician; the politician is probably calling it right.
 
Joe Biden said:
“I just got off the phone with — the third call with Prime Minister Netanyahu. And I told him if the United States experienced what Israel is experiencing, our response would be swift, decisive and overwhelming,” President Biden said.

“My team has been in near constant communication with our Israeli partners and partners all across the region and the world from the moment this crisis began.

“We’re surging additional military assistance, including ammunition and interceptors to replenish Iron Dome. We’re going to make sure that Israel does not run out of these critical assets to defend its cities and its citizens.”
Biden's policy, like Trump's, has been extremely inconsistent, changing considerably depending on who is interviewing him and when. But wars are fought with money and arms, not promises or toothless threats. Israel is under no threat of losing US support regardless of who wins the election. We may lose our rights and freedoms, but they will not face ammunition shortages as long as a nation called the United States continues to stand. And they know it. Israel could not and would not be waging this "war" without the ironclad guarantee of US support.
 
And in fact, giving Trump half a vote may be quite a "rational" thing to do. Let me explain.

First the cost to vote is non-trivial. A well-off person will often use a simple mail procedure or spend a LITTLE bit of time and gasoline voting -- call it $20 for the inconvenience.
A poorer person might lose $20 out of pocket -- or out $10 plus a 2-hour wait since D-leaning precincts in swing states often have deliberately degraded equipment -- so $20 even ignoring any inconvenience.

We'll suppose that you value your and your family's lives at $b if Trump wins (b = 200,000), and at $b + $a (suppose a = $20 million) if Trump loses.. Call the election a coin-toss; your expectation is $b + 10.00002 million if you don't vote (we add in the c = $20 savings from not voting), and voting increases your weighted arithmetic mean expectation whenever
(0.5+p)*20,000,000 + (0.5-p)*0 > 10000020​
p > 1 in 1,000,000​
if you do vote, where p is the probability your vote elects Biden.
This is a plausible estimate of your vote's chance to decide (if in a swing state) and for that state to swing the election. We've evaluated the cost to you of Trump victory as $20,000,000. Is that cost too high?

(Note that we are maximizing the weighted arithmetic mean here. From the teachings of D. Bernoulli and Kelly we may prefer to maximize the geometric mean. For that analysis we need to state $b, our residual "bankroll" if Trump wins. Suppose b = $200,000
I derive that voting is indicated whenever
p > .5 * ( ln(b+c) + ln(a+b+c) - ln(b) - ln(a-b)) / (ln(a+b) - ln(b))​
which becomes
p > 1 in 91,400​
if my arithmetic is correct. If b = 20,000, then p > 1 in 13,800. Kelly teaches that long-shots aren't worth so much. But if b = 20,000,000, p > 1 in 924,000, in the expected ballpark.

Summary: With parameters like ($20 M, $0.2 M, $20) -- though arguably extreme farfetched parameters -- you should waste your time and vote IF you're in a swing state but only if the election is CERTAIN to be extremely close, far beyond any reasonable a priori guess.

I think the above may be correct MATHEMATICALLY.
BUT we also derived mathematically that you may as well pee in your friend's swimming pool, or perhaps hope someone else will save the drowning child. The RESPONSIBLE act is to vote, and to vote sensibly.

The reason to vote therefore is the GOLDEN RULE: If many Biden voters do this Kelly calculation and fail to vote, while no MAGA-nuts so abstain, then you give victory to Trump.

To check the numbers, we do a thought experiment. Suppose some Omnimax AI determines that your vote IS the deciding vote, and offers you $25 million to vote for Trump. You lose the $20 million you get for saving democracy (and also earn the wrath and scorn of anyone who works out you've defected). But you get 25 million cold cash to play with! What do you say?

If the truth be told, I think many Americans would sell their vote for less than $25M, even for a mere million dollars, even if they knew theirs was the deciding vote. But suppose you get the whole $25 million. How do you rationalize shitting in the country's swimming pool? (I dunno. But it doesn't seem implausible that one family might decide to retire to some idyllic paradise, pamper themselves at a bigly rate and view their situation as a strange dream or nightmare.)
 
To support Biden at all is to be responsible for genocide apparently.
I said nothing of the sort. I support Biden on a great many issues. But not this issue, no. I reject genocide, or religious ethnocide, as a political strategy. Full stop and without exception. I have never felt otherwise, and accept no shame for that position. Neither should any Israeli or friend of Israel, if you ask me. It's like everyone forgot why that state even exists... whether you prefer Judaism or Islam should not be the deciding factor in whether you or your children have a right to life, neither whether you are ethnically Arab or Ashkenazi.
I reject genocide too. I also reject a nuclear apocalypse and the destruction of democracy. Again, guess I'm morally superior to you.
 
I for one would like more elections where I am not voting against a candidate but for a candidate I actually think is good.
 
Biden's policy, like Trump's, has been extremely inconsistent, changing considerably depending on who is interviewing him and when. But wars are fought with money and arms, not promises or toothless threats. Israel is under no threat of losing US support regardless of who wins the election. We may lose our rights and freedoms, but they will not face ammunition shortages as long as a nation called the United States continues to stand. And they know it. Israel could not and would not be waging this "war" without the ironclad guarantee of US support.
I don't believe that Israel would stop defending itself if the USA ended the status quo.

You seem to believe that both candidates would maintain the status quo. I don't believe that is true. I think Biden would. But not Trump.
I think Trump would massively ramp up military aid to Israel. Maybe even put US boots on the ground. His administration and supporters would work to take the war to countries like Syria and Iran, by whatever means necessary. They would support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. That's what I think people who don't support Biden are supporting, even if they prefer not to think about it.
Tom
 
Israel has been the only democracy in the area, even if it's now showing signs of declining, as are many other democracies. Are we to abandon them? Then what?
Sooner or later, yes, we will have to. They are about to drag us into a full scale war with Iran. Are you ready for that? Another twenty year long "defensive war" in someone else's country that never seems to end? I'm sure once Trump is in office and committing whatever war crimes his idiot advisors tell him to, all the moderate Democrats will gleefully pretend the middle four years didn't happen, that it was a straight line from the moving of the embassy to the nuking of Tehran. But when we had a chance to de-escalate, we chose to fan the flames and stuff the budget. The collusion of the "left" will be forgotten... by the left. But only by the left.
I'd prefer the war with Iran to happen before they have the bomb than after. They're not going to stop until somebody makes them stop.
 
I firmly believe that a war between US and the Tehran regime is inevitable in the short to medium term. Getting it done before the theocrats acquire the bomb is strongly preferable.
If the theocrats are going to acquire nuclear weapons they will probably have done so by now.

They probably can't enrich uranium or make weapons grade plutonium themselves, and can be effectively prevented from acquiring the ability to do either pretty much indefinitely - both require fragile and obvious infrastructure, and cannot be done without US and Israeli intelligence being aware, and taking effective steps to sabotage that infrastructure (this has already happened).
Why can't they? It's simply a matter of time. Their production lines won't be efficient but each time through the centrifuges will enrich it a bit more.

The easiest way by far for the mad mullahs in Tehran to get a nuke is to buy one from Vlad Putin. Putin's only concern in this would be to preserve (as far as possible) deniability; Iran is a strong and increasingly necessary ally in the Russian imperialist conquest of Ukraine, and trading a deniable weapon (or, more plausibly, the plutonium with which to make one) for a big shipment of Iranian drones is a distinct possibility.
Which is why I think Putin won't be stupid enough to give them a bomb. People have been willing to look the other way rather than confront the reality of Iran but a mushroom cloud will change that. (That's assuming they don't go for Israel. If they do it becomes moot--Israel doesn't have true boomers but they are believed to have a nuclear deterrent at sea. Everything of importance in Iran will be gone.)

Iran's recent escalating beligerance towards Israel is obviously driven in large part by the conflict in Gaza; But I do wonder if the Iranians might have a nuclear card up their sleeve too, given the otherwise near suicidal decision to directly attack Israel itself.
Reality check time: The conflict in Gaza is part of the escalating belligerence. It's not a separate issue, Gaza is an Iran/Israel proxy war, possibly with some Russian assistance.

I doubt strongly that the IDF is so distracted by Gaza as to be incapable of an overwhelming and disproportionate retaliation against Iran.
Reality check time: Israel is not in a position to launch any major attack on Iran unless it takes the confirm or deny option. The distance is simply too great. Israel was already at the end of it's range in hitting the Iraqi reactor--the mission profile for that involved punching off their tanks while sneaking through Saudi airspace and gave them very little extra fuel even then.
 
It is obvious that Iran knows it would be devastated in a war with the US or its allies. That is why the warned us snout their “tat” in response to Israel’s “tit”. Their acquisition of a nuclear weapon does not change that awareness.
 
Iran and Qatar and others have felt justified in indulging in blood-lust for centuries.
That feeling was subdued for a while, until Cheato stepped in to fuck things up like he always does.
The feeling was never subdued. It's just the world would prefer not to see Iran for what it is.

And, yes, it's the government, not the people. But the people don't have the ability to override the government.
 
Obama might have gone down in history as the man who helped lead Iran out of its darkness . . . until the reigns of U.S. power were turned over to a maniacal traitor who pandered to his voter base of hate-filled bigots.
This is so crucial to the current situation.
Obama put the USA and Iran on a path towards peace and prosperity.

Republican Obstructionists torpedoed it immediately. Not only did they turn an important potential ally into an implacable adversary. They also demonstrated to the world that the USA has little interest in peace and cannot be trusted for longer than a political cycle.

Imagine how different the current situation might be if Iran were a US ally. Instead, they're a Russian ally.
Tom
Obama was taking the route of appeasement.

Iran snatches hostages. ("Criminals"--but without any indication they actually were.) Iran frames it as paying something they claim is owed them, gets a big payoff, releases the hostages and grabs some new ones.
 
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