Woke is white arrogance

[DrZoidberg]

Aha... Woke moralism. The new Conservative moral majority.

https://quillette.com/2021/09/06/the-war-on-porn-cancel-culture-on-steroids/

The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?

Long before the woke Left was imagining systemic oppression everywhere, the anti-sex movement (an alliance of the religious Right and radical feminists) was identifying a deeply serious—yet strangely hard to quantify—problem: our fourth trend, sex trafficking.

If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

 

[Politesse]

Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.

 

[laughing dog]

If my memory is correct, Mr. Kaepernick's protest caused a larger furor than Tommy Smith and John Carlos's did in 1968.

It seems we haven't come as far in race relations as many people believe.

Surely the larger the protest the more the belief is mainstream? If Kaepernick's protest led to more protest doesn't it mean that race relations have improved? The intensity of the protest means that the sense of threat is greater. I'm pretty sure that in 1968 racists and white supremacists didn't feel particularly threatened. They had less reasons to show their anger. Fury is more a result of somebody feeling pushed into a corner rather than them feeling secure in their power. Not to mention Kaepernick had a greater fan club than Smith and Carlos did. The beatniks and hippies were a tiny tiny part of society. The wokes are the dominant power player in current politics.

No?

I lived through that period. White racists and supremacists felt very threatened during the 1960s - that was the period when civil rights were being restored to people of color. There were riots in big cities. Blacks were still being violently attacked in the South.

Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones' protest was seen worldwide while they were representing the USA (not some cities's professional sports team). It was a real big deal both in its audacity, simplicity and innovation.

While I agree that today's bigots, racists and white supremacists feel threatened, I think you really misunderstand US history.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you have a problem with the American anthem, this planet is not for you.

What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant thing to say. Francis Scott Key shoved a dictionary and a lot of punctuation into a terribly sick pig, and then gathered up what was blown out the rear end of said pig to tell the story of our getting our butts whooped in the War of 1812 and put it to an impossible to sing acoustic harmony of a drinking song. The thing has several verses that no one knows. It is awful! It is so bad, the only good thing about it was it inspired this moment.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxHnXajIex4[/YOUTUBE]

American the Beautiful is sweet, to the point, easy to sing, and gets us from the beginning to the end without needing a water break.
God Bless America is self-serving, but checks most of the boxes. The Flyers' had Kate Smith perform God Bless America, not the Star Spangled Banner... and it is an icon moment for Philadelphia Flyers' history.

 

[KeepTalking]

The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke.

Of course it does. Woke is about being aware of things like systemic oppression. If they were not systemically oppressed here in the US, blacks would not need to be woke to that fact.

Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

I never said it was. I only mentioned that it is fucking stupid to say "the woke Left was imagining systemic oppression everywhere", because there is actually systemic oppression somewhere, so they are not necessarily imagining it.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

The left does not think that woke is inseparable from being left, it is conservatives who have painted it that way. Please review the responses from myself and other self-identified leftists in this thread and others who do not identify as being woke.

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

You are wrong on all accounts. Why are you so willing to swallow the conservative line on this?

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

It absolutely is not, but what does that have to do with the opinion piece to which you linked? I really want to know how you think that it shows anything about the left, or the woke. The only thing I see even remotely relating to the topic are the imaginations of the author. Every single topic he mentions in that screed he directly relates to things that conservatives have done and are doing, no evidence is provided about leftists or "wokes" doing anything tangential to the topic, yet somehow it is all the fault of the woke boogeyman. There is not even enough reasoning there to call it "shoddy", and I really want to know what you found so compelling about it.

 

[Emily Lake]

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).

 

[Emily Lake]

Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.

How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?

 

[Toni]

The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?

 

[Toni]

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).

I'm sure that a lot of white people do have fairly shallow views of systemic racism, given that they themselves are not victims and can only see it from the outside, not experience it from within.

I agree with the whole misdirected energy directed at 'defund the police' and actually feel quite certain that the phrase was deliberately coined in order to create division and opposition to much needed reforms to policing in this country.

 

[TSwizzle]

How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?

It is already happening;

The “flame purification” ceremony, first reported by Radio Canada, was held in 2019 by the Conseil scolaire catholique Providence, which oversees elementary and secondary schools in southwestern Ontario. Some 30 books, the national broadcaster reported, were burned for “educational purposes” and then the ashes were used as fertilizer to plant a tree. “We bury the ashes of racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the hope that we will grow up in an inclusive country where all can live in prosperity and security,” says a video prepared for students about the book burning, Radio Canada reported. In total, more than 4,700 books were removed from library shelves at 30 schools across the school board, and they have since been destroyed or are in the process of being recycled, Radio Canada reported.

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

 

[Jarhyn]

The story you link is not about the woke, why do you imagine that it is? Would it be a result of the following sentence that appears within?


If so, I don't think that says anything at all about the woke, except for the author's own idea about what the woke "imagine". Which is fucking stupid because there is systemic oppression, and you somehow think that the disposable comment that they see it "everywhere" make this relevant to the discussion. It does not do so. The linked article adds nothing to the conversation, other than showing once again that some will search for any negative quote about the woke that fits their preconceived notions, and link it here without any sense of what the article surrounding it even means.

The fact that there is systematic oppression in no way justifies woke. Being against woke isn't to ignore systematic oppression.

In the left woke has become wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism, as if they're inseparable. I think it's wrong, counter productive and a dangerous position. I am sure it will inevitably lead to a conservative reaction, because woke is dominant and also so dumb. If the left thinks that woke is inseparable from being left, why wouldn't the conservatives also think that?

Woke is moralism, witch hunts, virtue signaling and political theatre. Zero substance. All the stuff we used to associate with conservatives.

It's absolutely the same dangerous and idiotic ideology.

So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?

All very valid points.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Interesting side note here. I hang with a black womanist group on a regular basis. Somewhere around 75% or higher of them view BLM, CRT, and the entirety of "woke" ideology to be shallow performances put on by predominantly white folks, so those white folks feel like they're gaining virtue points instead of actually having to do something real. They almost universally oppose defunding the police, and think that's a horrible idea and borders on misogynistic, because they already can't get enough support from local law enforcement when it comes to the abhorrent levels of domestic abuse and rape that they face (much higher rates than among white women).

No surprise. There's an awful lot of virtue signaling from both sides.

 

[KeepTalking]

How about noting that the underlying dogmatic views involved in current progressive views on social justice bear an uncanny similarly to the kind of zealous adherence to authoritarian religiosity so prevalent in Torquemada and his followers... and is highly likely to lead to a modern-day inquisition?

It is already happening;

The “flame purification” ceremony, first reported by Radio Canada, was held in 2019 by the Conseil scolaire catholique Providence, which oversees elementary and secondary schools in southwestern Ontario. Some 30 books, the national broadcaster reported, were burned for “educational purposes” and then the ashes were used as fertilizer to plant a tree. “We bury the ashes of racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the hope that we will grow up in an inclusive country where all can live in prosperity and security,” says a video prepared for students about the book burning, Radio Canada reported. In total, more than 4,700 books were removed from library shelves at 30 schools across the school board, and they have since been destroyed or are in the process of being recycled, Radio Canada reported.

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...

 

[Jarhyn]

It is already happening;



Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...

Yeah, it's not an inquisition. And yah, it's absolutely indefensible.

Granted I would see a lot of those books relegated to storage, or the high shelves labeled "old racist shit". Or some other place of shame amongst the stacks.

We can afford to hoard information, even the shitty shit. It just pays to well classify it as such, too.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hearing someone complain about the peril of witch hunts while more or less inventing an enemy out of whole cloth and claiming to find them everywhere is an additional layer of irony for this thread.

Let's have an eye rolling competition to see who can out-roll the other one because we think the other person can't see the irony of their statement.

 

[DrZoidberg]

If you have a problem with the American anthem, this planet is not for you.

What an utterly ridiculous and ignorant thing to say. Francis Scott Key shoved a dictionary and a lot of punctuation into a terribly sick pig, and then gathered up what was blown out the rear end of said pig to tell the story of our getting our butts whooped in the War of 1812 and put it to an impossible to sing acoustic harmony of a drinking song. The thing has several verses that no one knows. It is awful! It is so bad, the only good thing about it was it inspired this moment.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxHnXajIex4[/YOUTUBE]

American the Beautiful is sweet, to the point, easy to sing, and gets us from the beginning to the end without needing a water break.
God Bless America is self-serving, but checks most of the boxes. The Flyers' had Kate Smith perform God Bless America, not the Star Spangled Banner... and it is an icon moment for Philadelphia Flyers' history.

I didn't say it's perfect. The last line of my post sums up my reply. All the other national anthems are worse.

National anthems are problematic. It just seems to be a thing. By comparison the American one is the least tainted IMHO

 

[DrZoidberg]

So the fact that there is systematic oppression does not justify....being aware of such systematic oppression (It's racism, btw. We can just say it's racism.) and acknowledging that systemic oppression (AKA systemic racism) exists? We're supposed to stick our heads in the sand and call our dark skinned friends the N word and act like it's all cool....

It's wrong to be 'wedded to any opposition to racism and sexism?' So, we're supposed to just be cool with racism and sexism, if it's not too egregious? If it doesn't offend our sensibilities? Because it doesn't matter to cool dudes such as yourself that racism and sexism harms real live people?

Because....conservatives might be offended?

It's ok to offend and harm people negatively affected by sexism and racism but it's not OK to offend....conservatives?


You mean: conservatives such as yourself, right?

All very valid points.

Thanks for reminding me why I put Toni on ignore.

Here she clearly creates a dichotomy where the only two options are to be woke or to be FOR racism. As if there are no other positions.

I think conservatives should be offended as much as possible. I think conservatives are silly, have a ridiculously simplistic view of the world, their might makes right view of things is destructive. I believe a society should be judged on it's ability to take care of its weakest members.

I think Marx was right about most things. His analysis of structural oppression is right on the money. And is a much smarter model for understanding structural oppression than CRT in spite of predating it with over a hundred years. Any marker of poverty, or lack of power, will single you out as somebody those with influence and wealth, are less likely to invest in. ANY. And it's self reinforcing.

Policy's intended on lifting up marginalized groups are great. But only if the policy actually fits the job they're intended to fix.

I think wokes doesn't really want to fix racism and sexism. I think it's just something they say to get popularity points. It's activism reduced to 100% theatre. It's like they feel that slapping each other on the back for tear jerker statements is doing something useful. They want to look like being good people, rather than actually being good people. They've completely confused those two positions IMHO.

I have Toni on ignore because I rarely feels she takes the time to understand what I'm saying. I think she has a black and white way of seeing the world, and looks for non-PC trigger words rather than trying to understand the meaning. She often ends up putting me in boxes, (like this time) that I don't fit into and too often expects me to defend positions I have never held.

I am a left liberal. I'm against woke because I think it damages the liberal progressive march and will lead to a conservative backlash and a less liberal future. I think woke will lead to more racism and sexism. Nobody is ever served by simplifying a complicated problem to the point where acting on it according to that simplified view will make the problem worse.

 

[Bomb#20]

It is already happening;

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...

"Where they burn books, they will in the end also burn people." - Heinrich Heine

 

[Arctish]

It is already happening;

Canada, eh. What's that allaboot

"Burned for educational purposes". Just blows the mind. I fear Dickens may have perished in the purge.

While the above seems absolutely indefensible to me, and I in no way endorse it, inquisition it aint...

"Where they burn books, they will in the end also burn people." - Heinrich Heine

You guys sound 'woke'. I'm seeing some definition 1 and definition 10 in your posts. Maybe a bit of 11, too.

woke

/wōk/

1. aware of, and concerned about, social issues such as racism and social justice

2. smugly arrogant, fatuous, and overbearing, especially when expounding on the topic of social justice

3. people who call out people who are too lazy to even try to remember correct names and terms aka Miss Manners wannabes

4. white arrogance

5. a cynical power tactic for gaining status.

6. members of a group engaged in public shaming and mob violence

7. a dog whistle term used to disparage liberals protesting racism

8. moralism

9. witch hunts

10. virtue signaling

11. political theatre

 

[DrZoidberg]

Tarrantino on woke

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-XevURCBpw&t=241s[/YOUTUBE]

Here's an other perspective on woke, which I thought was interesting.

It's Quentin Tarrantino talking about political correctness and cinema.

To paraphrase he's saying that the 80'ies were more woke than it is now. Which I agree with. I was young then. But I remember the relentless, shameless and often embarrassingly over the top virtue signaling that was going on. Often by rich people clearly having become wealthy by rising through the ranks of the old system. White performers making statements about the need to stop racism and then whenever they got onto a stage, they'd shamelessly nudge all the blacks into the background and take centre stage. It was all talk. The age of tokenism. Grandmother guilted us when we didn't eat up by telling us to think about the children in Africa.

The 80'ies PC culture was also a result of a similar movement as the current woke culture. It was based on Foucault, Derrida and deconstructionism. Words used by a lot of people who didn't know what any of it meant, but they knew that by saying them, they would show the world they were good people.

The 80'ies PC culture ended in a very good way. It gave rise to the cynicism of the 90'ies. Decadence became the ideal. Youth, beauty and wealth became ideals in a way that were completely unrealistic. Fantasy became the ideal. It was the age of supermodels. People were so sick of trying to be authentic and to understand structural oppression that they instead wanted the fake. Kids ate MDMA and ran around in hedonistic techno temples. Being straight was boring. Being bisexual was much cooler. It became a catalyst for new art and new philosophy. We stopped caring who got offended. Or rather, it was a new kind of punk, where we tried to offend. This was the world of the rise of Pride and the LGBT movement. This was the time when Hollywood stopped just talking about having more blacks in movies, (80'ies) and instead gave them leading roles.

I was very much a part of the 90'ies youth culture.

Anyway... so perhaps the inevitable reaction to woke isn't neo-conservatism. Perhaps we'll get a new 90'ies, ie neo-punk. Come to think of it, the original punk movement, wasn't that a reaction to all the naive wide-eyed love-the-world hippie nonsense?

It's a nice thought, and perhaps a reminder not to think that my apocalyptic vision of the world is the only, or even more likely outcome. The Zeitgeist can often progress in unpredictable ways.

Woke still fucking sucks. I hope it dies soon.