• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

This thread has become fascinating. So interesting to have a front row seat to the propaganda that Russia is telling their citizens.

The math doesn’t add up to the Russian claims, the photos don’t add up to the Russian claims, the videos don’t add up to the Russian claims.

And barbos sounds so angry about the rebuttals.


But carry, on, please. It is so interesting to have our own channel to view.
 
This thread has become fascinating. So interesting to have a front row seat to the propaganda that Russia is telling their citizens.
One more time, I watch exclusively youtube bloggers with ties to Ukraine.
That is, they are from Ukraine and know who is who there.
Well, I watch western youtube bloggers too. There is a stark contrast between them and MSM. Looks like people with alternative views were simply forced out of CNN into youtube channels. Long live youtube I guess.


By the way, it's mutual. People in Russia are mind boggled by garbage you're being fed. It's truly mind boggling. But I understand where do you come from.

The math doesn’t add up to the Russian claims, the photos don’t add up to the Russian claims, the videos don’t add up to the Russian claims.
Photos can be deceiving.
What do you think about La Stampa posting a pictutre of a result of Ukrainian attack on Donetsk and making it look like it was russian attack on some Ukrainian city?
be honest.
 
Last edited:
And barbos sounds so angry about the rebuttals.
I have been angry since Alfa Bank garbage. They flat out lied about it and you (public here) flat out refused to admit that. What kind of discussion we can have when you flat out deny facts?

There is no doubt in my mind that MSM is no longer reliable source of information.
They're propaganda arm of neocons and Millitary Industrial Complex.
 
What kind, indeed.
Do you think I am stupid?
Do you think I don't understand that when you start ignoring something it really means you actually admit that you lost?
I am pretty good at body language and reading people. That includes differences between cultures, well, at least russians versus americans.
 
I am pretty good at body language and reading people.
You are astonishing to accomplish this wihtout even seeing the body or reading the person.

Kudos.

Do I think you are stupid? No.
But you are making claims that are ridiculous and incredibly outlandish.
I’m astonished by what you are claiming to be true, and it is fascinaing to watch.
 
You are astonishing to accomplish this wihtout even seeing the body or reading the person.
It's all related, language and body language.
But you are making claims that are ridiculous and incredibly outlandish.
Really? like what? like the fact that Alfa-Bank story was utter garbage and lie?
Like the fact that you keep repeating the stories which were admitted (by perpetrors) to be lies?
 
Meanwhile conspiracy theories about AzovSteel evacuation attempts gets developed more and more.
Apparently they "identified" who that VIP could be - one american general.
Authors suggest that would give Russia rights to strike NATO targets in Poland.
Lets hope there are no NATO generals in Mariupol or at least they are not alive.
 
About gas prices:
Ukrainians discuss the fact that Hungary is reselling gas to Ukraine at $1400
That is buying at ~$400 and reselling at $1400.
Business is business, this is before war.
 
This is the shit Barbos has been fed.

Everyone in Ukraine is a nazi and must be eradicated along with the whole entire country.
I don't read that particular site at all. I mostly follow youtube bloggers.
But yeah. that "shit" seems to be consistent with my own conclusion based on available data I trust. "too late for half measures" consensus is starting to form in Russia and .... Ukraine. And no. I am not being fed shit, it is you who is being fed shit.

And by youtube bloggers I mean neutral to pro-russian sane people from Ukraine.
Some initially neutral are slowly drifting to pro-russia now. They are literally fed up with shit nazis are pulling.
It confirms the genocidal nature of the Russian attack.
The word "genocide" gets thrown around too liberally these days. Ukraine is the victim of a viscous and unethical (completely unnecessary) invasion by Russia. The odd part is that Russians are dying in high numbers. And barbos is having a hard time deciding whether the nazis are killing Russias or Ukrainians (both?). The nazis are very well stocked up on shells and bombs (air force?) too.
In this case, the "genocide" charge against Russia seems valid. When they agree to "humanitarian corridors", as Russian negotiators have several times, and then deliberately target those corridors--and when they bomb a non-military site like a rail station packed with civilians--and when they target hospitals and schools--that is a deliberate attempt at genocide.
Massacre = Genocide?

No, genocide is about a specific type of massacre--one that targets a specific nation or group of people merely because they belong to that group. You seem to have such a narrow concept of genocide that it is almost impossible to call any act of mass extermination by that name.

Not just ethnic cleansing. They could drive civilians out of those areas easily by just letting them go. What the Russian military is doing now is to deliberately target children, seniors, parents, and other civilians. It is really targeting Ukrainian families. They get them to gather in predictable areas, and then they bomb and shell those areas. That is genocide.
The intent needs to be cleansing, I don't see this as cleansing, and Putin isn't selling it to his nation as cleansing the Ukrainians.

It doesn't matter how Putin sells it to his nation, and I don't think you've been at all clear in what you mean by "cleansing". Ethnic cleansing is what Stalin did to the Crimean Tatars when he simply deported an entire population and replaced it with Russians and Ukrainians. He didn't kill all of them, although he had a substantial number killed. What he is doing in Ukraine is attempting to annihilate civilians in all age groups that live in certain areas--e.g. in the path of his "land bridge" from Russia to Crimea. He is also reportedly having captured Ukrainian civilians in towns like Mariupol deported to Russia, but his tactics are quite clear. Ukrainians are told to leave their homes and sometimes even offered what seem to be safe corridors to leave. However, Russian troops then prevent them from leaving and those who remain are mercilessly targeted with bombs and missiles. In Bucha, people were just shot in the streets, and they even have recorded conversations of Russian soldiers reporting on what they are doing and urging troops to shoot civilians.

Since you seem to be working with a very narrow concept of what "genocide" means, let me give you the official definition of the crime of genocide that the UN has:

Definition​

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Although barbos does not necessarily represent what a majority of Russians believe, he does a pretty good job of reflecting the attitudes of those who treat Russian media as a reliable source of information. I urge you to read very carefully what he says about Ukrainians in general and the Ukrainian nation. Or just read what Putin himself wrote in his famous historical screed about the history of the Russian nation as "one people". There is a lot of anger and hatred there, and that seems to play a big role in the military policy of targeting Ukrainian civilians. It certainly did in the war with Chechnya, and we see that policy here. People are being slaughtered merely because they happen to be Ukrainians, especially if they voice any opposition to being assimilated by the Russian ethnic group. This is the same kind of behavior we saw in Rwanda, when the dominant Hutu tribe engaged in a genocidal massacre of Tutsis, but on a much broader scale in Europe and by much more sophisticated means than machetes. And those targeting the Tutsis also targeted some Hutus who resisted their ethnic-based slaughter, just as Putin's Russia targets liberal and moderate Russians who oppose his brutal policies.
 
Russia admits to using chemical weapons.

Dude, I speak russian and know what he said.
He did not say what you were made to believe he said.
He suggested using tear gas.

Apparently he meant using flame throwers.
Russian expression "to smoke them out" could mean that too.
The plant is very difficult target with multiple underground levels of tunnels.
But who cares about correct and meaningful interpretation? right?
You people still believe that Putin admitted meddling in your elections on camera.
 
Russia admits to using chemical weapons.

Dude, I speak russian and know what he said.
He did not say what you were made to believe he said.
He suggested using tear gas.

Tear gas is defined as a chemical weapon by the 1925 Geneva Convention, and its successor the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Its use in war is prohibited by international law, and it is absolutely correct to refer to such use as the illegal use of chemical weapons.
 
Tear gas is defined as a chemical weapon by the 1925 Geneva Convention, and its successor the Chemical Weapons Convention.
US police still use it. And I am sure you were aware of that.
And flame throwers too, I mean military, not police.

By the way, I was told that the guy did in fact talked about tear gas too, also flooding it.
A lot of options, to force them out alive, instead of destroying perfectly perfect steel plant.
 
Tear gas is defined as a chemical weapon by the 1925 Geneva Convention, and its successor the Chemical Weapons Convention.
US police still use it. And I am sure you were aware of that.
And flame throwers too, I mean military, not police.

By the way, I was told that the guy did in fact talked about tear gas too, also flooding it.
A lot of options, to force them out alive, instead of destroying perfectly perfect steel plant.
Police are not bound by the Geneva Conventions, nor the CWC. These bind military forces, such as those deployed by Russia in Ukraine.

US police probably shouldn't use chemical weapons; But even if they were bound by the same treaties as the military, and were using them illegally, their crimes would not in any way exonerate the crimes of the Russian military.

"Other people have stolen larger sums than my client" isn't an effective defence against a charge of bank robbery; Similarly, "US police still use it" isn't a defence of Russian illegal use of it.
 
Police are not bound by the Geneva Conventions, nor the CWC. These bind military forces, such as those deployed by Russia in Ukraine.
Well, technically it's a police operation, not a war.

What do you suggest? and no, "Leaving Ukraine" is not an option :)
 
US police probably shouldn't use chemical weapons; But even if they were bound by the same treaties as the military, and were using them illegally, their crimes would not in any way exonerate the crimes of the Russian military.
Actually, tear gas is not really banned by that convention.
And why do we even discuss that?
Why not discuss Ukrainians using cluster bombs on civilian population?
No millitary target were there.
And why not discuss La Stampa making it look like it was russians doing it on Ukrainians, not the other way around?

Why not discuss Ukraine "AirForce" strafing mostly women in the center of Lugansk in June 2014? again, no military targets. Just ordinary people walking by City Hall.
Why don't we discuss CNN being pretty damn quiet about that?


Why are you so concerned about Azov battalion "soldiers" having some tears?
 
Last edited:
I generally support Macron on most things, but to say that Ukraine and Russia are "brothers" has as much validity as saying that Jews and Arabs, which are both Semitic peoples, are brothers.

The relationship between the Russia and Ukraine has never been particularly happy, in my understanding. In the 17th and much of the 18th Century, the Zaporhozian Host were willing to dance to the Sultan's fiddle for a while just to keep from having to live under Russian serfdom, which was always a cruel system designed to break the spirit of a people. The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church continues to maintain an anathema on Ivan Mazepa, who is, to some in Ukraine, a cultural hero.

The people of what is now Ukraine continued to have uprisings against serfdom during the 19th Century, and by the 20th Century, they were so fed up with the Russians that they preferred to get behind Nestor Makhno's anarcho-communist ideas and the surrounding Makhnovshchina rather than wholeheartedly join with the Bolsheviks.

Refusal to submit to the Bolsheviks after the revolution was part of what led to the Holodomor, which really was deadly enough to be called a genocide. If you have never heard of the Holodomor, you have heard of it now. It was an artificially induced famine that significantly depleted the population of Ukraine, hitting the almost entirely indigenous peasant class of Ukraine particularly hard.

The fact that the Russian government is now leveling Ukrainian cities with ridiculous loss of civilian lives in order to try to terrorize the Ukrainian government into submission is just another of many crimes in an abusive relationship that stretches back centuries.

To use the word "genocide" to describe what the Russian government is doing is not excessively extreme, but it lacks only for precision. Even that lack is only out of want of a better word. The crimes would not be as outrageous, although still very much on the scale of the mass slaughter of civilians, if not for the fact that the Russian government is only perpetuating the systematic bullying of Ukraine that has gone on for centuries. The only part that Ukraine has ever had in that abuse was to refuse to genuflect to the motherfuckers. They have always objected, and they still object. They have always been right to object, and Russia's policy of domineering aggression toward Ukraine has always deserved the hostile contempt and revulsion of the entire civilized world.

With relatives like Russia, who needs enemies? If the word "genocide" is inadequate for want of precision, then it is time to coin a new word that answers better to the task of describing the situation. If we imagined that Russia and Ukraine were individual human beings, it would be like a man that has spent years making unwanted advances upon a woman, raped her several times, and pretended to own her while she really raised his offspring, which was the product of those rapes, entirely based on her own resources. Even when she and her offspring were starving and sick, which cost the life of one of those offspring, he did nothing whatsoever support even his own spawn, and there is actually evidence that he engineered those hardships in order to punish her for a perceived slight.

Now that she has finally decided to marry a man that respects her and who has treated her children with the love, affection, and support of a natural father, the monstrous brute that conceived them is moving in to claim the legitimacy of the relationship, based on nothing more than the fact that he signed the birth certificate of the first one (and only the first one), and furthermore, the motherfucker demands she submit to an archaic form of coverture that would effectively erase her legal identity as an independent human being.

When she refused to truckle when he stormed in to batter her and instead stuck him with a meat cleaver and told him to piss off and never darken her doorstep again, he took over an auxiliary building on the property and continues to maintain the narrative that he is really the master of the household and that they are really a loving couple that is only having one of their rare fights, and surely, she will soon "comes to her senses."

Meanwhile, she has a shotgun trained on the building, and she is on the phone desperately asking her real fiance to do more to help the situation, and her fiance is doing as much as he can to help her in this situation without running afoul of the uncertain and unusual legal situation regarding the property.

Now, if we translate that to a dispute between nations, the word "genocide" is indeed appropriate in terms of emotional weight, but an act of genocide is more like the equivalent of running someone over with a truck in an attempt to murder them and thereby putting them into an ICU for a lost year of their lives. This crime is, in one respect, seemingly of less acute severity, but when taken into context with the ongoing and systematic abuse, it is also more desperately vile.

The word "genocide" is the only term that has adequate emotional weight for the sheer degree of internationally united revulsion that the perpetrator deserves. I propose that we use it as a stand-in term for now and invent a new term for profoundly ugly abuse between nations later.

Furthermore, any government that has ever subjected a foreign people to oppressive serfdom for the overtly and boastfully expressed purpose of rendering them spineless should not be given indefinite license only because they have changed their pretenses. The fact that the Russian government no longer claims to live under a Tsar and no longer acknowledges that they keep their people living under a form of serfdom barely better than slavery (in fact worse than slavery as practiced by less ruthless cultures) is not something we ought to give any credit whatsoever. Soviet communism was nothing more than the renaming and expansion of serfdom, and they did nothing by it except to ruin the good name of a system of economic justice that I would otherwise proudly proclaim as being related to my own philosophy. Fuck them.
 
Last edited:
I was told that that corpses moving is a standard practice to prevent boobie traps. But I have not seen the video itself

As for the satellite images. There is evidence of forgery there.
There is an image after russians left and 3 weeks prior to that. They look almost identical, the only difference is resolution. And during this 3 weeks there was rain and warm temperature. They suspect it's the same image but they changed resolution to hide the fact that bodies did not decompose at all.

Foot, meet bullet.

The Russian claims were that there were no bodies. Now you're saying they were there earlier.
No, russian claims were it was all staged.
There were bodies and there are obvious signs of heavy fighting inside the town.
Most of the corpses on the wildly circulated pictures are fresh, some you can't tell but they can be associated with other bodies which look fresh. And one or two looked not fresh.
If I had to guess this all looks like they were caught on the street under mortar fire and all died at once. Except people with tied up hands.

I can easily imagine older corpses were a result of russians entering the town.
Fresh ones could be result of ukrainians trying to retake it. And tied up is most certainly a result of Ukrainians hunting down people who were cooperating with russians.

Initial stage of this invasion was dumb and failure for the most part.
They clearly did not expect that level of resistance. This is very unfortunate, but when you ambush enemy forces inside the town, expect bad things happening to civilians.
This is unfucking believable. Your side invades a sovereign country. You are killing people. Taking their land. Bombing their houses. Blowing up everything in sight. Then you have the gall to complain that the defenders are ambushing your side (in their own cities). So they should "expect bad things happening" to them. Your side is evil. Here's a hint, if you don't like being ambushed, don't send your soldiers into a sovereign country. I'll tell you another thing, the other countries that Russia is threatening are preparing for invasions as well (Finland, Sweden, and etc.). Your side will eventually run out of soldiers and the resources to continue.

The west should do everything in our power to arm and supply Ukraine to our greatest ability. Bankrupt Russia as much as we can with sanctions. Get off their oil and gas. The next stage is start pressuring their allies: China and India. If countries continue to want to defend their ally, they should not get the benefit of trade and economic gain with the west. The west should only do business with those that don't directly or indirectly favor killing civilians and destroying stuff. We should only want to trade with those who are builders and contributors to world peace. Just my opinion.
 
You think we didn't track the missile from launch to impact?!?! Are you forgetting the airborne radar aircraft over Poland?
Damn, you got me!
...
Wait a moment. What prevents your government from lying, that's right, nothing.
And I know for a fact that your government is lying.
Fucking ukronazis posted a picture with a serial number which says it's from the same batch the previous tochkas they used.
Already addressed in this post. The serial numbers are not conclusive, because same weapons were distributed over the Soviet Union and not allotted to particular SSRs. But I think the simplest explanation for similar serial numbers is that Russians used a missile that was captured from Ukraine either in this conflict or 2014.

Position of the detached booster unequivocally points to launch site which is to the north west of the hit, there were no russians there, let alone with this outdated crap.
Russia has demonstrably used Tochka's in Ukraine, and they were spotted in military convoys in Belarus. It seems like Russia needs to use old stock because it's running out of newer missiles, or is saving them for later when the Ukrainian air defenses are destroyed.

And like I pointed out earlier, the booster doesn't necessarily fall in a straight line between the launch point and the target. It can veer off to the side due to wind resistance. Here's a video of another ballistic missile (not sure if it's Tochka-U) with the rocket falling clearly to the side of the actual hit:



Funny, just saw some general talking about S-300 Ukrainians just got (from Slovakia/USA). Well, guess what? it's been destroyed already :)
That is not confirmed by Slovakia or Ukraine. So it's probably bullshit, like that hit to an "ammunition depot" that turned out to be a chicken farm.

Ukraine had about 100 S-300 systems before the war, and 21 are confirmed destroyed; the real number of destroyed systems is probably larger. It's not impossible that Russia hit an S-300 battalion in Dnipr, but there's no reason to think that it was the same system that was delivered by Slovakia. And even if it was, it's hardly a decisive strike either way.
 
Back
Top Bottom