Russian Invasion of Ukraine - tactics and logistics

[bilby]

China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.

I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.

I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.

 

[steve_bank]

China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.

I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.

Didn't say that. We have a poverty problem. In Seettle and the region estimates are around 40,000 homeless.

China wants to hang on to the developing nation satsus which gives them financial breaks while they have one of the largest economies of the world

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Column of Russian tanks destroyed by Ukrainian missile squad​

Fish in a barrel--and they just keep driving along with no ability to shoot back.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.

But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.

I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.

I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.

Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.

But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.

Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

 

[Elixir]

As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

They are inserting themselves into other economies around the world, trying to secure and perhaps monopolize natural resources in Africa and other undeveloped territory. It is part and parcel of their long term "growth" plan to be economically parasitic, not allowing the people in those places to participate in the profits from extraction of their own resources. Of course the US does the same. but it doesn't alter the fact. As long as China does that, nobody is going to "leave them alone". Everybody is going to try to horn in on the action.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.

But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.

Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular failure.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.

But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.

Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular

I don't think people care that much about personal liberty compared to wealth and personal security.

But democracy tends to lead to wealth and personal security. That's why people like it and the world drifts in that direction.

Like my brother's Chinese wife said, as long as the Chinese economy is growing the Chinese communist party has nothing to fear from the people.

But the flip side of this is the CCP is terrified of downturns in the Chinese economy, thus ensuring there will be a big one when they can no longer prop up the unsustainable growth.

Sure. But that's exactly what we want from a government. We want a focus on long term planning and sustainable growth. As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

You misunderstand.

China has been maintaining a 7% growth rate. As they catch up with the developed world this will inherently slow, but the Chinese government can't accept that and has tried to keep it going--witness the ghost cities. They're building capacity they don't need rather than slow down. They're setting themselves up for a spectacular failure.

As long as China does that there's an incentive for the international community to leave them alone

They are inserting themselves into other economies around the world, trying to secure and perhaps monopolize natural resources in Africa and other undeveloped territory. It is part and parcel of their long term "growth" plan to be economically parasitic, not allowing the people in those places to participate in the profits from extraction of their own resources. Of course the US does the same. but it doesn't alter the fact. As long as China does that, nobody is going to "leave them alone". Everybody is going to try to horn in on the action.

China has a middle class and is not a nation of poor peasants anymore. From a news segment they have gone electronic, no paper currency. China is very much a modern state.

I bet Chinese leadership will be happy to hear they no longer have a poverty problem.

I don't think Steve has a clue how big China is.

They could have an affluent middle class as populous as the entire USA, and still have poverty stricken peasants make up two thirds of their nation.

Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.

No need to speculate. This is an awesome resource for this

Dollar Street - photos as data to kill country stereotypes

Imagine the world as a street. Everyone lives on Dollar Street. The poorest to the left and the richest on the right. Every else live somewhere in between. Where would you live? Visit Dollar Street and see homes from hundreds of homes from all over the World.

www.gapminder.org

 

[DrZoidberg]

 

[Copernicus]

[Defend Ukraine meme deleted]

The problem with that cartoon meme is that NATO did not offer to use weapons or send troops to defend Ukraine, and there was considerable hesitation even to offer weapons. Everyone assumed Ukraine would not last long. Ukraine always was alone in defending itself, and all that has been offered have been defensive weapons. Those are being supplied now, perhaps too little and too late, but the cartoon does not portray the threat of global nuclear war if NATO countries were to try to intervene more actively.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.

No need to speculate. This is an awesome resource for this

Dollar Street - photos as data to kill country stereotypes

Imagine the world as a street. Everyone lives on Dollar Street. The poorest to the left and the richest on the right. Every else live somewhere in between. Where would you live? Visit Dollar Street and see homes from hundreds of homes from all over the World.

www.gapminder.org

I was thinking of the rural/urban divide I see in China. Your typical tourist never goes into the lower income areas. I've never seen the really poor stuff, but the differences I've seen are tremendous. Even within Shanghai what you see in front isn't always what's behind--most things are behind locked gates so you're not going there unless you're with a local.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yup. What I see in the big cities and what I see in the more rural areas are very different.

No need to speculate. This is an awesome resource for this

Dollar Street - photos as data to kill country stereotypes

Imagine the world as a street. Everyone lives on Dollar Street. The poorest to the left and the richest on the right. Every else live somewhere in between. Where would you live? Visit Dollar Street and see homes from hundreds of homes from all over the World.

www.gapminder.org

I was thinking of the rural/urban divide I see in China. Your typical tourist never goes into the lower income areas. I've never seen the really poor stuff, but the differences I've seen are tremendous. Even within Shanghai what you see in front isn't always what's behind--most things are behind locked gates so you're not going there unless you're with a local.

That's the entire point of that Web page. The families selected aren't selected at random. They are selected because they are representative. It's precisely to show how normal people, within their income bracket really live their lives.

The Rosling Foundation is a big deal. They have lots of support from all of academia and all governments.

China has no incentive to try to hide reality. In public perception westerners think China is a lot poorer than it really is.

 

[steve_bank]

Tactics Vido of indescrimate use of cluster bombs.

 

[SLD]

The Russians can’t even cross a fucking River. 3 times they’ve failed. Keep trying fuckers.

Bloody river battle was third in three days - Ukraine official

Ukraine claims to have attacked Russian troops as they attempted to cross the Siversky Donets river.

www.bbc.com

utterly piss poor Military skills. If this is the plan they need to fire their planners right now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Russians can’t even cross a fucking River. 3 times they’ve failed. Keep trying fuckers.

Bloody river battle was third in three days - Ukraine official

Ukraine claims to have attacked Russian troops as they attempted to cross the Siversky Donets river.

www.bbc.com

utterly piss poor Military skills. If this is the plan they need to fire their planners right now.

Opposed river crossings are hard. Ukraine has it's act together with artillery, that makes obstacles such as rivers very hard.

 

[Copernicus]

The Russians can’t even cross a fucking River. 3 times they’ve failed. Keep trying fuckers.

Bloody river battle was third in three days - Ukraine official

Ukraine claims to have attacked Russian troops as they attempted to cross the Siversky Donets river.

www.bbc.com

utterly piss poor Military skills. If this is the plan they need to fire their planners right now.

I don't think that the decision to cross that river was driven by military strategy, but by political direction. They are under extreme pressure to make advances, and the generals involved in the planning likely felt that they had little choice other than to follow the orders of their high command, who are dealing with an unstable dictator. Hitler often overrode his generals, making the fateful decision to attack Stalingrad before reaching their major objective of the Caucasian oilfields during Operation Edelweiss. Putin had very definite ideas about what his military could achieve, if it invaded Ukraine, and he has been extremely frustrated by their lack of progress in living up to expectations. Crossing that river was key to making advances even though pontoon crossings in active war zones are extremely risky, especially with good satellite intelligence to spot and report ground activity. They were sitting ducks. Putin is playing with his toy soldiers, and the generals are likely being handed their military objectives under his direction.

 

[SLD]

The Russians can’t even cross a fucking River. 3 times they’ve failed. Keep trying fuckers.

Bloody river battle was third in three days - Ukraine official

Ukraine claims to have attacked Russian troops as they attempted to cross the Siversky Donets river.

www.bbc.com

utterly piss poor Military skills. If this is the plan they need to fire their planners right now.

Opposed river crossings are hard. Ukraine has it's act together with artillery, that makes obstacles such as rivers very hard.

Yes. They are hard. But they are essential operations for any well run military. Russia does not have a well run military.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Absolutely amazing that the Russians couldn't grab Kharkiv considering it's a ethnically Russian, and Russian speaking city. If there was any truth to Putin's Nazi story, wouldn't Kharkiv be happy to embrace their ethnically similar liberators?

 

[Bronzeage]

I watched a drone video that was released today. It shows a night battle, if battle is the right word. A Russian BTG was driving down a road with heavy trees on each side. They were approaching a bridge. It appeared the drone was spotting for Ukrainian artillery. Crosshairs focused on a target and a streak appeared from off camera and the target exploded. This continued for about 10 minutes until every moving vehicle was on fire. Men could be seen running through the trees. Where ever a large group was seen, a shell hit. Before the video ended, strikes targeted lone soldiers running through the woods. I'm sure the only survivors were those who ran far enough before all the primary targets were destroyed.

I can't say if this video was genuine, as I have seen a lot of game footage edited to look like drone video, but after seeing the remains of the Russian river crossing, I can imagine this is what it was like.