No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[Toni]

Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".

The police officer, whose body camera was somehow turned off, said he had or was trying to grab the taser. That may be true. There is no actual evidence Loyoya had a taser when he was shot, aside from the officer saying so on audio just before he shot him point blank in the back of the head.

I would MUCH prefer to believe that it was a justified shooting. I truly would.

Unfortunately there are too many cases of police officers lying to justify their actions.

 

[Gospel]

I'm inclined to believe Lyoya was still holding onto the taser. I take issue with the opinion that he was going to use the taser. And also the opinion that he attacked and assaulted the officer. It takes prejudice to construe fighting and assaulting with Lyoya's attempts to evade and resist.

Edit: And if they can't acknowledge that during the investigation then I'm not sure what kind of investigation it is.

 

[Elixir]

I'm inclined to believe Lyoya was still holding onto the taser. I take issue with the opinion that he was going to use the taser. And also the opinion that he attacked and assaulted the officer. It takes prejudice to construe fighting and assaulting with Lyoya's attempts to evade and resist.

Edit: And if they can't acknowledge that during the investigation then I'm not sure what kind of investigation it is.

None of those semantic shades of difference alter the fact that a paid professional "peacekeeper" shot a man in the back of the head while he was face down on the ground. The paid professional's charter was to "serve and protect", not to murder people who scared him. Being drunk and belligerent is not a capital crime, PERIOD.

 

[TomC]

No, that would be failed training for police officers.

So, you think that YBM are far and away the most violent demographic in a violent country due to failed training for police officers?
That's what I posted and how you responded.
Perhaps you're being ambiguous?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

you think that YBM are far and away the most violent demographic in a violent country due to failed training for police officers?

Not I, no way. I think the most violent demographic are racist trumpsuckers. Don't know if that cop was one, and it doesn't matter. I agree with the many agencies of the USA's intelligence apparatus that have reached that conclusion.
I do wonder what measure you are using to support the conclusion that YBM are more violent than RWEs.

 

[TomC]

None of those semantic shades of difference alter the fact that a paid professional "peacekeeper" shot a man in the back of the head while he was face down on the ground. The paid professional's charter was to "serve and protect", not to murder people who scared him. Being drunk and belligerent is not a capital crime, PERIOD

And while you and Toni and BLM etc are busy demonizing the cops, who do you think is going to leave(or not join) police departments? The good ones, who want to be an asset to the community, or the assholes? I'm confident that y'all are selecting for the assholish ones who don't give a shit about a bunch of liberals as long as they've got a gun and a badge.
Tom

 

[Toni]

None of those semantic shades of difference alter the fact that a paid professional "peacekeeper" shot a man in the back of the head while he was face down on the ground. The paid professional's charter was to "serve and protect", not to murder people who scared him. Being drunk and belligerent is not a capital crime, PERIOD

And while you and Toni and BLM etc are busy demonizing the cops, who do you think is going to leave(or not join) police departments? The good ones, who want to be an asset to the community, or the assholes? I'm confident that y'all are selecting for the assholish ones who don't give a shit about a bunch of liberals as long as they've got a gun and a badge.
Tom

Neither Elixer nor I posted the OP. In fact, the same person often posts about black people being killed by police. Of course, he’s more in favor than Elixir or I are. So are you, it seems.

 

[TSwizzle]

And you lived to tell the tale. Did the officer not shoot you for some reason?

No. I wasn't shot, but it would have been nice to roll my window down without having to worry about taxpayers money getting wasted over it.

You were worried that a police officer was going to just come up to the window and shoot you? If so that is irrational. And that's not what happened to Lyoya.

 

[TomC]

Neither Elixer nor I posted the OP.

Which is utterly irrelevant. I'm discussing this with everyone on the thread.

In fact, the same person often posts about black people being killed by police. Of course, he’s more in favor than Elixir or I are. Or you, it seems.

In favor of what?
If you're implying that I'm in favor of police shooting anyone you're profoundly wrong.


Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, that would be failed training for police officers.

So, you think that YBM are far and away the most violent demographic in a violent country due to failed training for police officers?

No, I think you shouldn't beat your spouse.

That's what I posted and how you responded.

Naw, if it were, you wouldn't have needed to snip full quotes and my response and its context to make my reply look so simplistic.

Perhaps you're being ambiguous?

Perhaps you need to read people's posts better, most importantly your own.

But let me try and repeat my point. I'll use some emphasis, so it stands out more.

Here's what I see as the big picture problem. YBM, as a demographic group, are notoriously violent. Far more so than the next most violent demographic, YWM, much less other people. As a result, YBM are treated differently by cops in general. Cops are more suspicious, less respectful, quicker to draw a weapon, that sort of thing. It's human nature.

No, that would be failed training for police officers. Police officers shouldn't be expected or allowed to treat people they interact with as a statistic. You want to Fait Accompli aggressive and inappropriate police action simply on human behavior. No, that is failed training. Police can do better, some actually do. We should expect it.

Not hand wave it away as 'awww gosh.... just some of that human nature'.

 

[Toni]

And you lived to tell the tale. Did the officer not shoot you for some reason?

No. I wasn't shot, but it would have been nice to roll my window down without having to worry about taxpayers money getting wasted over it.

You were worried that a police officer was going to just come up to the window and shoot you? If so that is irrational. And that's not what happened to Lyoya.

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

 

[Gospel]

And you lived to tell the tale. Did the officer not shoot you for some reason?

No. I wasn't shot, but it would have been nice to roll my window down without having to worry about taxpayers money getting wasted over it.

You were worried that a police officer was going to just come up to the window and shoot you? If so that is irrational. And that's not what happened to Lyoya.

No. I just expected to roll down my window without getting pulled over for doing so.

 

[laughing dog]

None of those semantic shades of difference alter the fact that a paid professional "peacekeeper" shot a man in the back of the head while he was face down on the ground. The paid professional's charter was to "serve and protect", not to murder people who scared him. Being drunk and belligerent is not a capital crime, PERIOD

And while you and Toni and BLM etc are busy demonizing the cops,

Holding police officers accountable for their actions is not demonizing. Expecting trained professional police officers to put themselves in dangerous situations and to avoid violence whenever feasible is not demonizing. Hell, my son who was on patrol in a war zone had to show more restraint (and got paid a hell of lot less, and had to live in more austere conditions) than police officers in the US.

Your accusation is incredibly stupid and profoundly sad.

 

[TSwizzle]

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

I am skeptical that police walk up to cars and choose to shoot people, black people even. That sounds more like a psychopath. And again, that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

 

[Elixir]

Neither Elixer nor I posted the OP.

Which is utterly irrelevant. I'm discussing this with everyone on the thread.

In fact, the same person often posts about black people being killed by police. Of course, he’s more in favor than Elixir or I are. Or you, it seems.

In favor of what?
If you're implying that I'm in favor of police shooting anyone you're profoundly wrong.


Tom

I hope you don't get a groin injury from trying to straddle this issue.

 

[Gospel]

Killing of Philando Castile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gospel]

that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Disagree. While the circumstances were different. what happened to Lyoya happened to Philando. Both where seen as a threat and both were killed as a result. You have on this very thread people using language like assault, and attack when none of that is seen in the video. I wouldn't even consider what the officer was doing to apprehend him (before shooting Lyoya in the back of the head) assault or an attack. the officer didn't throw a single punch (at least not from what I saw) he didn't try to use a chokehold either. Up until shooting Lyoya in the back of the head, the officer wasn't a threat to Lyoya's life and Lyoya wasn't given a reason to think the officer was. Lyoya was drunk and had an evading arrest on his mind, not killing an officer. You can tell because he not once threw a punch, or tried to body slam the obviously outmatched officer. Lyoya had every opportunity to go from evasive to offensive actions. But did not. Yet, we have some people in this thread seeing a threat of deadly violence.

Maybe Lyoya was a threat at some time in the past
Maybe Lyoya would have been a threat in the future

But he damn sure wasn't a threat to the officer's life without using the officer's imagination (like in Philando's case).

 

[bilby]

Not his violence. It is very very very hard to call it self defend when it involves shooting someone in the back of the head at point blank range when you are on top of him, and he’s face down and unarmed.

You're being deliberately blind here--the taser. You can't say "unarmed".

Whose taser was it?

You don't get to supply weapons to suspects, and then kill them 'because they are armed'.

A police officer who cannot prevent a suspect from taking his weapons shouldn't have those weapons.

 

[Toni]

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

I am skeptical that police walk up to cars and choose to shoot people, black people even. That sounds more like a psychopath. And again, that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Probably that is rare that they decide to shoot someone they pulled over, just because. But too often, police decide to shoot a black person because they perceive that person as a threat. For zero reason other than the person is black.

I don’t believe that this bias is conscious but it exists all the same. Most white men are not like the McMasters’ and most police officers are not like those who shot a child on a playground. But too many do hold unconscious bias that allows them to see dark skin and think : threat.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Really? Like police officers never shoot someone they pull over through their car window. Cause off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of young black men who were killed under just those circumstances.

I am skeptical that police walk up to cars and choose to shoot people, black people even. That sounds more like a psychopath. And again, that's certainly not what happened to Lyoya.

Probably that is rare that they decide to shoot someone they pulled over, just because. But too often, police decide to shoot a black person because they perceive that person as a threat. For zero reason other than the person is black.

Or I think more likely, "escalation" during an encounter is more likely due to their initial perception and bias of the person. Smaller things are perceived as more significant things. Starting out at Fight or Flight is not a good way to ensure a safe encounter. That is what allows senses of slight and then anger to enter into an officer's judgment. No one is shooting a man in the back of the head without anger.