Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[Toni]

But if the need/desire for abortion was reduced to near zero, what red meat issues would conservatives rally around?

Guns, white replacement theory, trans access to sports and bathrooms, white Christian nationalism.....They have all sorts of red meat issues to use to stir up the ignorant base.

But, back to the OP. Imo, the best way to prevent abortion is to put the money that was removed from public health/family planning clinics that was removed since the Reagan administration back to where it needs to be.

I worked in both a maternity clinic for poor women, and I did a little work in a family planning environment. My most successful accomplishment from the brief time I worked in the maternity clinic was having almost 100% of my patients return for birth control. Most of these young women had enough family support to help them raise their children, but by being patient and nonjudgmental I was able to educate and convince them that using effective birth control gave them a lot of control over their lives. At that time, ( early 80s ) anyone who was high risk for pregnancy or who had at least 4 pregnancies was eligible for state paid tubal ligation. Quite a few of my patients chose that option. Plus you had to be at least 21. I still recall a 19 year old who had 5 children crying in my office because she couldn't get the tubal. Some of my patients had very little education as well as being controlled by a male partner, which almost made pregnancy inevitable.

Nobody gets pregnant to game the system. That's an old lie from the Reagan era, "welfare queen" nonsense. It is true that having children is a proud accomplishment for many low income women. I've worked with many of them. Most were very good mothers. Some had support from the fathers of their children. We could add more benefits to help them out, but subsidized housing, SNAP, the EIC, WIC and Medicaid or CHIP does help a lot of these women provide their children with with their basic needs. Free community college classes to allow them to be trained to do jobs that pay more, would also help their children. Free or very low cost childcare, especially preschool for those age 3 to 5 would also help these families.


Some only had one or two children, a few had 3 or 4 children, and there were two who had as many as 8 or more children. Oe of them had a very supportive family who gave her a lot of help. I didn't know them well enough to understand why they desired so many children, or if they were just careless with BC. Contrary to what some think, not many women choose abortions. The year I worked in a maternity clinic, only one girl chose an abortion.

I would support expanding these programs along with making it easier to have a tubal ligation or vasectomy. Most doctors don't like to perform those procedures on anyone who is very young unless they've already had at least two children. My husband had a vasectomy, when we decided not to have children together. He was 32 and I was 35, and I didn't want to get pregnant after that age, due to the increased risks. I had a 9 year old son when we met, and he treated him as if he was his own child. It was birth control that kept me from ever having an unwanted pregnancy prior to the vasectomy. Plus, my husband wore a condom every time we had sex prior to his vasectomy. Men are a part of the problem, as a good percentage of them refuse to use condoms. Most forms of birth control are quite effective if they are used correctly. Foam and condoms used together are about as effective as OCPs, so there are options. IUDs are usually very effective as well. But, now we need to be concerned about the crazies on the right who want to ban some methods of BC.

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

 

[ZiprHead]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

 

[Toni]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Women get pregnant even if they do not orgasm or enjoy sex or even if they are raped.

Every pregnancy, wanted or not, starts with some guy ejaculating.

 

[prideandfall]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Women get pregnant even if they do not orgasm or enjoy sex or even if they are raped.

Every pregnancy, wanted or not, starts with some guy ejaculating.

and every pregnancy, wanted or not, ends with a woman's body.
the male contribution to the process - of making a donkey face for 5 seconds and then feeling better about life for maybe 10 minutes which is as long as the endorphin rush lasts before the existential horror of the rest of your life creeps back in - entitles men to nothing in terms of that woman's body.

(toni i know that we're in agreement here, i didn't quote you to try to posit an argument against your statement, you were just the jumping off point for me to soap box a little)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

 

[Toni]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

But it doesn’t work ‘both ways.’ Throughout western history, women have been ‘blamed’ and punished for getting pregnant, fir not ‘having self control.’ It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

Do t want to be on the hook for providing fir some baby out if a woman you don’t care about? Don’t ejaculate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

A woman's uterus will never make with becoming home to a fetus without a man being involved.

 

[Rhea]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

But it clearly does not work equally both ways,
Since ejeculations near vaginas are voluntary and ovulations, obviously, are not.
Since ejaculations near vaginas are done with awareness, and ovulations, obviously, are not.
Since ejaculations nears vaginas activively swim toward the ovum and the ovum, obviously, does not.

 

[Elixir]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

Do you HAVE to be such a killjoy?

 

[Toni]

Don’t the French refer to orgasm as la petite mort? ( the little death)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

But it doesn’t work ‘both ways.’ Throughout western history, women have been ‘blamed’ and punished for getting pregnant, fir not ‘having self control.’ It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

Do t want to be on the hook for providing fir some baby out if a woman you don’t care about? Don’t ejaculate.

Your argument works equally when reversed, it's not proof of anything.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

 

[laughing dog]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

But it doesn’t work ‘both ways.’ Throughout western history, women have been ‘blamed’ and punished for getting pregnant, fir not ‘having self control.’ It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

Do t want to be on the hook for providing fir some baby out if a woman you don’t care about? Don’t ejaculate.

Your argument works equally when reversed, it's not proof of anything.

No, it doesn’t work both ways because men do not bear any cost of a pregnancy.

 

[bilby]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Jesus! (Yeah, I know. It's a habit.) How about no one gets punished?

I was simply showing that her argument works equally both ways.

But it doesn’t work ‘both ways.’ Throughout western history, women have been ‘blamed’ and punished for getting pregnant, fir not ‘having self control.’ It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

Do t want to be on the hook for providing fir some baby out if a woman you don’t care about? Don’t ejaculate.

Your argument works equally when reversed, it's not proof of anything.

But the argument is nonsensical if reversed.

“Women can become pregnant as a result of a man ejaculating” is a fact.

“Men can become pregnant as a result of a woman ovulating” is nonsensical.

The reason it is easy to believe that the argument works in both directions is that people have a tendency to edit women as a group out of the picture:

“Pregnancy can occur as a result of a man ejaculating”; “Pregnancy can occur as a result of a woman ovulating”.

Pregnancy doesn’t occur in isolation; It occurs in women.

 

[Toni]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

It only takes a man’s orgasm. Fun fact: women can become pregnant without ever having an orgasm or even consenting to sex.

 

[Derec]

It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

And you are all surprised Pikachu face when I say that you are a radical feminist?
That's basically the creed of radical feminism.

 

[Derec]

It only takes a man’s orgasm. Fun fact: women can become pregnant without ever having an orgasm or even consenting to sex.

Women can also become pregnant without men consenting to sex.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Should a person, regardless of anatomy, be held responsible for a child he, she, or they, do not want? Is this the crux of the issue?

 

[bilby]

Should a person, regardless of anatomy, be held responsible for a child he, she, or they, do not want? Is this the crux of the issue?

No, the crux of the issue is whether a person, regardless of anatomy, should be required to create a child he, she, or they, do not want, if they have the biological potential to do so.

It’s fairly obvious that the answer is ‘no’, but that obviousness is obscured by idiots who declare that potential is the same as actual, and by zealots who believe that enjoying sex should be prohibited to women, and who wish to ensure that doing so is as risky as possible for them in every conceivable way (pun intended).

Of course, there’s considerable overlap in membership of the sets ‘idiots’ and ‘zealots’.