Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

[AthenaAwakened]

Should a person, regardless of anatomy, be held responsible for a child he, she, or they, do not want? Is this the crux of the issue?

No, the crux of the issue is whether a person, regardless of anatomy, should be required to create a child he, she, or they, do not want, if they have the biological potential to do so.

It’s fairly obvious that the answer is ‘no’, but that obviousness is obscured by idiots who declare that potential is the same as actual, and by zealots who believe that enjoying sex should be prohibited to women, and who wish to ensure that doing so is as risky as possible for them in every conceivable way (pun intended).

Of course, there’s considerable overlap in membership of the sets ‘idiots’ and ‘zealots’.

That's fairly straightforward. So why doesn't the thread read that way? It reads to me like people trying say anything but that.

 

[Toni]

It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

And you are all surprised Pikachu face when I say that you are a radical feminist?
That's basically the creed of radical feminism.

It’s biology and not feminism that has decreed all human pregnancies are the result of male ejaculation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your argument works equally when reversed, it's not proof of anything.

But the argument is nonsensical if reversed.

“Women can become pregnant as a result of a man ejaculating” is a fact.

“Men can become pregnant as a result of a woman ovulating” is nonsensical.

You changed it, mine wasn't nonsense.

The reason it is easy to believe that the argument works in both directions is that people have a tendency to edit women as a group out of the picture:

“Pregnancy can occur as a result of a man ejaculating”; “Pregnancy can occur as a result of a woman ovulating”.

Pregnancy doesn’t occur in isolation; It occurs in women.

So? I was objecting to her argument pretending it's all the man's fault. Both people are responsible!

 

[Metaphor]

It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

And you are all surprised Pikachu face when I say that you are a radical feminist?
That's basically the creed of radical feminism.

It’s biology and not feminism that has decreed all human pregnancies are the result of male ejaculation.

Ova and sperm are both necessary, and neither sufficient on its own, for human pregnancies.

It would be just as valid to say all human pregnancies are the result of female ovulation.

 

[bilby]

You changed it, mine wasn't nonsense.

It was; But it omitted the role of the woman in pregnancy, so that the nonsense wasn’t obvious.

Lots of nonsense results when people forget that pregnancies happen to women, rather than just happening.

 

[Metaphor]

You changed it, mine wasn't nonsense.

It was; But it omitted the role of the woman in pregnancy, so that the nonsense wasn’t obvious.

Lots of nonsense results when people forget that pregnancies happen to women, rather than just happening.

Your statement is transphobic. Pregnancies are not restricted to women. I am reliably informed that pregnant people can be either women or men or anything else.

 

[TSwizzle]

I thought this was settled already. The typical pregnancy is a team effort. Unwanted pregnancy, both are responsible except in cases of rape.

 

[Toni]

It’s time the blame gets laid at the correct door: that of people who ejaculate.

And you are all surprised Pikachu face when I say that you are a radical feminist?
That's basically the creed of radical feminism.

It’s biology and not feminism that has decreed all human pregnancies are the result of male ejaculation.

Ova and sperm are both necessary, and neither sufficient on its own, for human pregnancies.

It would be just as valid to say all human pregnancies are the result of female ovulation.

Female ovulation is involuntary and does not cause her to feel pleasure. Male ejaculation is under his control, and certainly whether he chooses to ejaculate in or near a vagina is under his control.

Parthenogenesis is not a human reproductive strategies. Yet.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You changed it, mine wasn't nonsense.

It was; But it omitted the role of the woman in pregnancy, so that the nonsense wasn’t obvious.

Lots of nonsense results when people forget that pregnancies happen to women, rather than just happening.

She is trying to blame the men for something both parties are responsible for.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Female ovulation is involuntary and does not cause her to feel pleasure. Male ejaculation is under his control, and certainly whether he chooses to ejaculate in or near a vagina is under his control.

Parthenogenesis is not a human reproductive strategies. Yet.

Which has nothing to do with the situation. Both are responsible.

 

[laughing dog]

You changed it, mine wasn't nonsense.

It was; But it omitted the role of the woman in pregnancy, so that the nonsense wasn’t obvious.

Lots of nonsense results when people forget that pregnancies happen to women, rather than just happening.

She is trying to blame the men for something both parties are responsible for.

No, she is simply stating basic biological facts, something you apparently cannot grasp.

 

[Toni]

Female ovulation is involuntary and does not cause her to feel pleasure. Male ejaculation is under his control, and certainly whether he chooses to ejaculate in or near a vagina is under his control.

Parthenogenesis is not a human reproductive strategies. Yet.

Which has nothing to do with the situation. Both are responsible.

But only one is being controlled by society.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

Only one of the events is freewill and arbitrary.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Female ovulation is involuntary and does not cause her to feel pleasure. Male ejaculation is under his control, and certainly whether he chooses to ejaculate in or near a vagina is under his control.

Parthenogenesis is not a human reproductive strategies. Yet.

Which has nothing to do with the situation. Both are responsible.

What does it even mean to be "responsible"? A woman gets pregnant and she'll be responsible for carrying a fetus to term and then birthing. There will be sickness, peeing, lost sleep, lost viability of some organs, no sex (the best sex?), anxiety, birthing, lots of blood! This is just to a day or so after birth. The man... he'll be responsible for... umm... ... providing feckless support, husbandry, lump sum payment?

What does it mean to say the father of a child is "responsible"?

 

[southernhybrid]

Why don't all men always wear a condom when having sex, if they don't want to be "responsible" for a pregnancy?

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms

If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they’re 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren’t perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.

The better you are about using condoms correctly every time you have sex, the better they’ll work. But there’s a small chance that you will get pregnant even if you always use them the right way.

Sure, women have many options for birth control, but if a man doesn't want his partner to become pregnant, especially if the sex is casual and not a part of a long term relationship, the man should always wear a condom. Oh yeah. I know. It's not as good with a condom. Well too fucking bad. My husband always wore one when we were dating.

And, why not discuss birth control before engaging in intercourse? Is it that difficult to ask a woman what type of birth control she's using? I always used some form of birth control, but condoms used correctly are an effective way to prevent pregnancy and STDs. If a woman uses a spermicidal foam, for example, and the man wears a condom, there will be no unwanted pregnancies. It's really that simple, but unfortunately, too many people don't take precautions.

While we're not discussing STDs, condoms are the most effective way to prevent transmitting an STD through sexual intercourse. So, those who have casual sex should make it a priority to use condoms for preventing both pregnancy and STDs.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why don't all men always wear a condom when having sex, if they don't want to be "responsible" for a pregnancy?

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms

If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they’re 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren’t perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.

The better you are about using condoms correctly every time you have sex, the better they’ll work. But there’s a small chance that you will get pregnant even if you always use them the right way.

Sure, women have many options for birth control, but if a man doesn't want his partner to become pregnant, especially if the sex is casual and not a part of a long term relationship, the man should always wear a condom. Oh yeah. I know. It's not as good with a condom. Well too fucking bad. My husband always wore one when we were dating.

Sounds kind of awkward during dinner.

And, why not discuss birth control before engaging in intercourse? Is it that difficult to ask a woman what type of birth control she's using? I always used some form of birth control, but condoms used correctly are an effective way to prevent pregnancy and STDs. If a woman uses a spermicidal foam, for example, and the man wears a condom, there will be no unwanted pregnancies. It's really that simple, but unfortunately, too many people don't take precautions.

While we're not discussing STDs, condoms are the most effective way to prevent transmitting an STD through sexual intercourse. So, those who have casual sex should make it a priority to use condoms for preventing both pregnancy and STDs.

All that said, is a man with condom getting a pass (potential pun avoided) for responsibility if there is a pregnancy? Are we putting together a responsibility schedule that bases percentage of responsibility based on aspects of both actors? Sobriety, protection levels, levels of implied consents, levels of spoken consent, discussion before hand, potential motive, actual motive? Because I know Loren would be dying to put a soul-less, unfeeling, "logical" schedule together.

Because, one problem I have is that the term "responsibility" hasn't actually been addressed.

 

[bilby]

Why don't all men always wear a condom when having sex, if they don't want to be "responsible" for a pregnancy?

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms

If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they’re 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren’t perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.

The better you are about using condoms correctly every time you have sex, the better they’ll work. But there’s a small chance that you will get pregnant even if you always use them the right way.

Sure, women have many options for birth control, but if a man doesn't want his partner to become pregnant, especially if the sex is casual and not a part of a long term relationship, the man should always wear a condom. Oh yeah. I know. It's not as good with a condom. Well too fucking bad. My husband always wore one when we were dating.

Sounds kind of awkward during dinner.

And, why not discuss birth control before engaging in intercourse? Is it that difficult to ask a woman what type of birth control she's using? I always used some form of birth control, but condoms used correctly are an effective way to prevent pregnancy and STDs. If a woman uses a spermicidal foam, for example, and the man wears a condom, there will be no unwanted pregnancies. It's really that simple, but unfortunately, too many people don't take precautions.

While we're not discussing STDs, condoms are the most effective way to prevent transmitting an STD through sexual intercourse. So, those who have casual sex should make it a priority to use condoms for preventing both pregnancy and STDs.

All that said, is a man with condom getting a pass (potential pun avoided) for responsibility if there is a pregnancy? Are we putting together a responsibility schedule that bases percentage of responsibility based on aspects of both actors? Sobriety, protection levels, levels of implied consents, levels of spoken consent, discussion before hand, potential motive, actual motive? Because I know Loren would be dying to put a soul-less, unfeeling, "logical" schedule together.

Because, one problem I have is that the term "responsibility" hasn't actually been addressed.

Responsibility in this context is easy to define, but hard to get anyone to admit to.

‘Being responsible’ is synonymous with ‘accepting my demands about what you should do and how you should behave’. Anything else is ‘irresponsible’.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

Only one of the events is freewill and arbitrary.

Unless it's rape both consented to the sex.

Unless you're arguing that he should have pulled out they are equally responsible.

 

[Toni]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

Only one of the events is freewill and arbitrary.

Unless it's rape both consented to the sex.

Unless you're arguing that he should have pulled out they are equally responsible.

But no one ever suggests that the man lose bodily autonomy because he had sex.

I know you support the right of women to make their own choices about their bodies. I’m just trying to make the point for those who need to hear it that pregnancy is not a punishment for women for having sex.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some man’s ejaculation. But sure, let’s punish women…

Every unwanted pregnancy begins with some woman's ovulation. But sure, let's punish men...

Virtually no ovulation alone has resulted in a pregnancy in the history of women ovulating. There is an entire industry based on this fact.

Men releasing in women has resulted in a notable percentage of pregnancies. There is an entire industry based on that fact.

No ejaculation alone has ever resulted in pregnancy, either. It takes both.

Only one of the events is freewill and arbitrary.

Unless it's rape both consented to the sex.

Not arguing otherwise. There was an attempted parallel with men in women verses ovulation, which is involuntary.