Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[ZiprHead]

I haven't watched the video, but someone who did saw that one of the cops had a "Punisher" logo lock screen on his phone.

I'm told that was the cop whose wife was a teacher there. He got a call from her and told him she was shot and dying.

 

[Tigers!]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

 

[Copernicus]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I haven't watched the video, but someone who did saw that one of the cops had a "Punisher" logo lock screen on his phone.

In case you don't know, the character is a comic book vigilante who violently dispatches bad guys and as the comics make clear, he is NOT a hero. A cop with the Punisher logo on his phone while being afraid to take on an active shooter killing innocent children is a perfect encapsulation of how some cops view themselves vs how they really are. Plus this one seems to not grasp the character at all. He's a violent psychopath. Is this cop trying to say he's one, too? Or did he just put it there because it is "badass?"

It is funny, because I couldn't really get into the show because of those exact problems. I think the show sold him as less a psychopath and more of a guy well over the edge in fury and taking all the enemies out... except there is too much clarity with who the bad guys are. At least in The Wire, it is antagonist v antagonist, but in the show he is sold as a gritty protagonist.

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

There are so many different levels of failure here. How much money was spent training their "SWAT" team? What was the leadership doing? At some point, someone has to take action, right?

All the officers got to go home. We don't know how many children's lives were the cost for that.

 

[abaddon]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

SWAT and police commentators on this say what the training says to do in this situation is the first three GO IN and take down the shooter. If those can't do it, then the next three go in. It's not clear to me why anyone would need a boss saying "here's how to do it" if they're trained already. Any two or three could coordinate to do what needed to be done to save lives.

Imagine if firemen watched a building burn, with people that might possibly be saved IF they act fast, waiting to get orders for the sake of maintaining"discipline".

 

[Gospel]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

Yeah, I'm certain the current SCOTUS would make another ruling in their favor. Last time it was no duty to protect, now it will be no duty to enforce the law without authorization from a superior. After that, it will be the superior has no duty to issue orders.

 

[Jarhyn]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

Yeah, I'm certain the current SCOTUS would make another ruling in their favor. Last time it was no duty to protect, now it will be no duty to enforce the law without authorization from a superior. After that, it will be the superior has no duty to issue orders.

And after that, the law against the rich and powerful dies because while he has no duty to take orders, he didn't have any duty not to accept a very generous donation to the department by Bob Moneybags. And of course, he has no duty to issue orders, so why would he have a duty to issue orders for the arrest of Mr Moneybags?

This is of course how it already works. Just less blatantly so.

Preferably, it would be "duty to protect."

 

[Copernicus]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

SWAT and police commentators on this say what the training says to do in this situation is the first three GO IN and take down the shooter. If those can't do it, then the next three go in. It's not clear to me why anyone would need a boss saying "here's how to do it" if they're trained already. Any two or three could coordinate to do what needed to be done to save lives.

Imagine if firemen watched a building burn, with people that might possibly be saved IF they act fast, waiting to get orders for the sake of maintaining"discipline".

Possibly. I'm not as familiar with SWAT and police commentators as you are, nor do I know what kind of training those guys had. I've read news stories claiming that they were trained for this kind of situation, but I didn't see much evidence of it. They seemed to be milling around without really having any plan of action at all. I think that at least some of them would have charged in if ordered to do so, but I honestly don't know. There seemed to be nobody in charge. Mostly a bunch of heavily armed men standing around waiting for orders and ducking behind shields, if they had them.

 

[Gospel]

Anyway, I'm not gonna say "defund" the police here. Sack the entire fucking department and start all over.

Step 1.

I don't think that all of the cops standing in that hallway should have been sacked. They aren't vigilantes who can do what they please. They have to await orders, because discipline is an important part of how they operate. Those who had them standing in the hall instead of charging in--not the same thing.

SWAT and police commentators on this say what the training says to do in this situation is the first three GO IN and take down the shooter. If those can't do it, then the next three go in. It's not clear to me why anyone would need a boss saying "here's how to do it" if they're trained already. Any two or three could coordinate to do what needed to be done to save lives.

Imagine if firemen watched a building burn, with people that might possibly be saved IF they act fast, waiting to get orders for the sake of maintaining"discipline".

Possibly. I'm not as familiar with SWAT and police commentators as you are, nor do I know what kind of training those guys had. I've read news stories claiming that they were trained for this kind of situation, but I didn't see much evidence of it. They seemed to be milling around without really having any plan of action at all. I think that at least some of them would have charged in if ordered to do so, but I honestly don't know. There seemed to be nobody in charge. Mostly a bunch of heavily armed men standing around waiting for orders and ducking behind shields, if they had them.

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

 

[Copernicus]

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

I'm not a fan of letting armed civilians with no training and in a panicked state of mind rush into a situation like that. What they needed was someone in authority who knew what he was doing. The police chief was apparently there but didn't seem to know what to do in a crisis situation with an armed shooter in a school, even one that he had previously visited for the purpose of planning for just such an eventuality. Apparently, he didn't think such a thing was likely to happen in his sleepy little town.

 

[Jarhyn]

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

I'm not a fan of letting armed civilians with no training and in a panicked state of mind rush into a situation like that. What they needed was someone in authority who knew what he was doing. The police chief was apparently there but didn't seem to know what to do in a crisis situation with an armed shooter in a school, even one that he had previously visited for the purpose of planning for just such an eventuality. Apparently, he didn't think such a thing was likely to happen in his sleepy little town.

National SWAT and Police training standards and Campuses?

Even the NG train at real military bases.

I'd totally vote for federal government soaking the costs for this entirely too.

 

[Gospel]

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

I'm not a fan of letting armed civilians with no training and in a panicked state of mind rush into a situation like that. What they needed was someone in authority who knew what he was doing. The police chief was apparently there but didn't seem to know what to do in a crisis situation with an armed shooter in a school, even one that he had previously visited for the purpose of planning for just such an eventuality. Apparently, he didn't think such a thing was likely to happen in his sleepy little town.

I agree. I'm also not a fan of a hallway full of officers listing to my children die while keeping me from helping.

 

[Gospel]

It doesn't help that with active shooters at the schools there is no time to figure out what to do. The WHOLE DAMN POINT IS TO GET IN AND ENGAGE. There is no negotiation, there is no taking you in alive. The only job the police have is to go in and remove the threat by lethal force.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

I'm not a fan of letting armed civilians with no training and in a panicked state of mind rush into a situation like that. What they needed was someone in authority who knew what he was doing. The police chief was apparently there but didn't seem to know what to do in a crisis situation with an armed shooter in a school, even one that he had previously visited for the purpose of planning for just such an eventuality. Apparently, he didn't think such a thing was likely to happen in his sleepy little town.

National SWAT and Police training standards and Campuses?

Even the NG train at real military bases.

I'd totally vote for federal government soaking the costs for this entirely too.

Agree fully... a 30% tax on gun purchases should pay for all that training.

 

[Ford]

Well if they were letting untrained people in the building they should have let the parents in.

I'm not a fan of letting armed civilians with no training and in a panicked state of mind rush into a situation like that. What they needed was someone in authority who knew what he was doing. The police chief was apparently there but didn't seem to know what to do in a crisis situation with an armed shooter in a school, even one that he had previously visited for the purpose of planning for just such an eventuality. Apparently, he didn't think such a thing was likely to happen in his sleepy little town.

Well there's the thing. Of course you don't want armed untrained civilians storming in there. That's what the armed police are for. Here in AZ we used to require training for a concealed carry permit. Part of the training was that if you do have your pistol and you find yourself in the middle of a shooting, stay the fuck down. You don't want to make yourself a target for the shooter.

Police - even in a sleepy little town - have a different role. If there's a shooter in a school going through classrooms and murdering kids, get your ass in there and draw his fire. Change the shooter's focus from blowing away kids to "oh crap I've got a trained, armed officer coming towards me and he's got body armor." Or if you like, a "good guy with a gun."

Back in 1997 in North Hollywood California, there was a shootout that played out on live television. A couple of heavily armed (and armored) bad guys tried to rob a bank. The cops tried to engage, but were outgunned until someone went to an armory and brought them something bigger than their sidearms. They then re-engaged the bad guys, and while some officers did get shot, after 45 minutes the bad guys were dead.

It appears that the Uvalde police were already armed from the get-go with the firepower that the North Hollywood cops had to wait for, but did they go in? No. Were the North Hollywood shooters looking to massacre as many civilians as possible? No, they were just trying to get away, but the cops engaged them rather than stopped to squirt some hand sanitizer. If there's an active shooter at a school in your little town and you're a cop dedicated to "protect and serve," then you put yourself in between the bad guy and the civilians. That's kinda the point.

 

[Copernicus]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Maybe these people should have showed up.



I mean, yeah, the image should be photoshopped... but it ain't.

 

[Jarhyn]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Oh it would have been a bloodbath of dead children of armed civvies ran in, guaranteed.

 

[bilby]

“It always embarrassed Samuel Vimes when civilians tried to speak to him in what they thought was “policeman.” If it came to that, he hated thinking of them as civilians. What was a policeman, if not a civilian with a uniform and a badge? But they tended to use the term these days as a way of describing people who were not policemen. It was a dangerous habit: once policemen stopped being civilians the only other thing they could be was soldiers.”

- Terry Pratchett, Snuff

 

[Tigers!]

It doesn't help that with active shooters at the schools there is no time to figure out what to do. The WHOLE DAMN POINT IS TO GET IN AND ENGAGE. There is no negotiation, there is no taking you in alive. The only job the police have is to go in and remove the threat by lethal force.

I must agree with this. Those who go into schools with guns are not interested in negotiations. They wish to harm.
The shooters have a death wish. The police's job is to grant that wish whilst keeping all others safe.
Just shoot the bastard(s).