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Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

And your side just ignores the fact that guns are the leading cause of death of children in the US and shrug your shoulders, quibble about what is and is not considered a child and act like it's no big deal. And you have a powerful lobby backed by Russia on your side so.......
And once again you ignore what we previously discussed. Most of those "children" are gangbangers.
Once again:

So. Fucking. What?

They are children, no matter what else they are.

Dead children don't stop being dead, nor stop being children, because they made the mistake of joining a criminal gang.

It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
"Gangbanger" is often a euphemism for person of color.
In the English speaking world, a person who is a member of a criminal gang is a "gangster", while a "gangbanger" is an individual who engages in sexual intercourse with more than one person simultaneously.

This fact makes reading posts by Americans on the subject unintentionally hilarious.
 
And your side just ignores the fact that guns are the leading cause of death of children in the US and shrug your shoulders, quibble about what is and is not considered a child and act like it's no big deal. And you have a powerful lobby backed by Russia on your side so.......
And once again you ignore what we previously discussed. Most of those "children" are gangbangers.
Once again:

So. Fucking. What?

They are children, no matter what else they are.

Dead children don't stop being dead, nor stop being children, because they made the mistake of joining a criminal gang.

It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
"Gangbanger" is often a euphemism for person of color.
In the English speaking world, a person who is a member of a criminal gang is a "gangster", while a "gangbanger" is an individual who engages in sexual intercourse with more than one person simultaneously.

This fact makes reading posts by Americans on the subject unintentionally hilarious.
That is certainly the usage for people who are very far behind the times. Gangster is a term used by people of my parents' generation, and sometimes among young people conferring a certain amount of respect: OG.

Gangbanger, when used by white people, is an attempt to sound hip and cool and yes, does carry the assumption that the person in question engages in indiscriminate sex without caring much about consent, so casual rape is implied or more accurately, that a (male) person takes what he wants regardless of whether or not anyone else protests.

A gang bang is usually a euphemism for gang rape, which is actually different than consensual group sex.
 
It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
Is he? All the blacks kids shot in Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and so forth. But no BLM or leftie protests. Politicians and activists silent. But if a career criminal dies of an overdose during an arrest, it’s pandemonium.
For some reason, some people get upset when the police kill someone who is not an immediate danger to anyone.
 
It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
Is he? All the blacks kids shot in Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and so forth. But no BLM or leftie protests. Politicians and activists silent. But if a career criminal dies of an overdose during an arrest, it’s pandemonium.
For some reason, some people get upset when the police kill someone who is not an immediate danger to anyone.
Yeah that’s total bullshit. Y’all getting upset when the perp is the State, but not when gangbangers kill each other. Such hypocrisy! How is the State supposed to control the gangbangers when they get shit on just for having some fun with a petty criminal who dies in the process?
 
And once again you ignore what we previously discussed. Most of those "children" are gangbangers.
Once again:

So. Fucking. What?

They are children, no matter what else they are.

Dead children don't stop being dead, nor stop being children, because they made the mistake of joining a criminal gang.

It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
"Gangbanger" is often a euphemism for person of color.
I'm not using it as a euphemism, I'm talking about people in violent gangs.
 
And once again you ignore what we previously discussed. Most of those "children" are gangbangers.
Once again:

So. Fucking. What?

They are children, no matter what else they are.

Dead children don't stop being dead, nor stop being children, because they made the mistake of joining a criminal gang.

It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
"Gangbanger" is often a euphemism for person of color.
I'm not using it as a euphemism, I'm talking about people in violent gangs.
 
In the English speaking world, a person who is a member of a criminal gang is a "gangster", while a "gangbanger" is an individual who engages in sexual intercourse with more than one person simultaneously.

This fact makes reading posts by Americans on the subject unintentionally hilarious.
The terms aren't equivalent--in this case "bang" is being used as in gun: not merely members of a gang, but members of a gang that engages in a lot of violence. A subset of "gangster".
 
It's not an excuse for you to dismiss their deaths. It just isn't.
Is he? All the blacks kids shot in Chicago, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and so forth. But no BLM or leftie protests. Politicians and activists silent. But if a career criminal dies of an overdose during an arrest, it’s pandemonium.
Really???

Screenshot 2022-12-24 6.52.53 PM.png
 
Not to mention that you are still ignoring the fact that AR15s are not distinct from other .22 rifles, including hunting rifles.
Which makes sense. A rifle is designed for a longer range, which is why you need a faster bullet.
Really don't know crap about guns, do you?

Which .22 caliber cartridge are you talking about? Those used in air pistols and air rifles (called caps or Floberts), a .22 handgun cartridge, a .22 Long cartridge for a handgun (most commonly used in target shooting competitions, with old Colts and modern single-action adaptations), a .22 Long Rifle cartridge (22LR), a .223 Remington, a 5.56 NATO, just off the top of my head? They are all vastly different from each other. I am going to assume you are talking about the 22LR, since this is the most powerful .22 caliber cartridge you can get. It is also a popular caliber for hunting vermin and rabbits.

The AR15 does NOT use a .22 cartridge, it uses a .223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO cartridge (bore of .224 or 5.56mm in metric - I know, why call it a .223 when it is actually .224?), which is a VASTLY different animal compared to the 22LR cartridge. The .223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO are almost identical and can be used interchangeably in most receivers (but not all), so I am going to treat them as identical for this discussion. Here are some of the differences between the 22LR and .223R/5.56 NATO cartridges:

Typical weight for a .223R/5.56 NATO is 55 to 65 grains, that for a 22LR is 30 to 40 grains.
Typical muzzle velocity with a 16-inch barrel is 3,000 to 3,400 fps for the .223R and 1,000 to 1,200 fps for the 22LR.
Typical energy of a .223R upon exit is 12 to 15 times that of a 22LR.
They are also very different in length and in internal composition. The 22LR is most often used as a naked lead ball (sometimes coated with copper), while the .223R/5.56 NATO is always encased in a copper jacket. The .223R/5.56 has a steel core beneath the lead shell extending from the tip to near the tail, and sometimes also comes with a hardened steel spear point (US Army standard green tip ammo which is also very popular in the US AR world).

The 5.56 NATO is the ammo of choice for military use in most western countries, and there is a good reason for this. That is because it is the most effective projectile for killing people and inflicting damage in short to medium range combat. Even the Russians, who have been invested fully in the 7.62x49 cartridge used with the AK receivers for so long have begun to switch to a 5.45x49 cartridge after seeing just how deadly the 5.56 NATO round is.

The 5.56 NATO can punch through Level 2 and 3 soft armor (the kind that is so popular with US law enforcement) and Level 3 ballistic shields. Under the right conditions, it can also punch through 3A hard armor (hardened steel plates covered with a ceramic/textile coat) that is sometimes used by the US Army to supplement the general issue flak jackets. FYI, Level 3 soft armor will stop most handgun projectiles, .32S&W, .38, .357 with a magnum charge, .44S&W, .45ACP and 9mmx19 Luger, but a 5.56 NATO round will penetrate both the front and the back of the armor AFTER it has traveled through 4 inches of wood. That is why the officers at Uvalde took a fucking hour to storm the room and kill the shooter, because they knew he had an AR15 that could penetrate their body armor and shields.

The 5.56 round is designed to tumble upon contact - instead of punching through bone (like a 7.62 AK round would), it bounces off and continues to inflict soft tissue damage. Your chances of recovery after being shot in the torso by a 5.56 round are slim, even if you can be immediately treated at a hospital that is skilled at treating gunshot wounds. The 5.56 round is also very aerodynamic and exhibits very little drop over 300 to 500 yards, and will punch through soft armor even at these distances.

Which makes sense. A rifle is designed for a longer range, which is why you need a faster bullet.
The AR15 is designed for use in short to medium range combat, not for long range sniper operations. While a skilled marksman can hit a human target at 300 yards with an AR15, that is not its intended function. There are much better rifles for long range operations.

Your ignorance is showing. I said "comparable to other similar rifles". There are plenty non-assaulty .22 hunting rifles.
A 22LR does nowhere near the damage that a 5.56 NATO round can inflict. If you shoot a pig in the head with a 22LR, you will probably just give it a really bad headache, unless you find a hole or soft spot in its skull. With a 5.56 NATO you will scatter its brains over a 50 yard splash zone.

Also, most serious hunters shooting game don't use semiauto AR15s, they use bolt action rifles. Because the AR15 is not designed for hunting game, it is designed to kill people.

My assertion is not specious at all. I was simply saying that handgun like the Glock 19 are plenty powerful enough to kill people, especially at short range as is the case in school/workplace shootings.
It is much easier for a novice to kill lots of people using an AR15 than a Glock 19, and I have been over this with you in the past. But you don't have to take my word for it. Go to a range, rent an AR15 and a Glock 19/17, hire an instructor for an hour or two, and shoot at a paper target at 10, 25 and 50 yards. Come back and post your groupings here.

What characteristics would you ban?
Ideally, any semiautomatic rifle/pistol that shoots a .223R/5.56 NATO using a gas impingement/gas charge system.

Handguns account for a lot more homicides than rifles of any type. In fact, there are almost twice as many people killed using "hands, fists, feet etc." than with rifles.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't start somewhere.
 
Just to emphasize the point, can Derec guess which one is a .22 Long Rifle cartridge and which one the 5.56 NATO used in the M4/M16/AR15?

1000000690.jpg

No points for guessing right.
 
Really don't know crap about guns, do you?
I do, but I do admit I should have said "some rifles". I elucidated it before, if you have the same size bullet with the same powder charge and same barrel length the ballistics will be the same regardless whether the weapon is considered "assaulty" or not.

The AR15 does NOT use a .22 cartridge, it uses a .223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO cartridge (bore of .224 or 5.56mm in metric - I know, why call it a .223 when it is actually .224?), which is a VASTLY different animal compared to the 22LR cartridge. The .223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO are almost identical and can be used interchangeably in most receivers (but not all), so I am going to treat them as identical for this discussion. Here are some of the differences between the 22LR and .223R/5.56 NATO cartridges:
Sigh. I did not go into that much detail, as I did not want to overcomplicate matters, but I did specifically mention powder charge upthread.
Typical weight for a .223R/5.56 NATO is 55 to 65 grains, that for a 22LR is 30 to 40 grains.
Grains? What's wrong with using grams?

Typical muzzle velocity with a 16-inch barrel is 3,000 to 3,400 fps for the .223R and 1,000 to 1,200 fps for the 22LR.
Typical energy of a .223R upon exit is 12 to 15 times that of a 22LR.

Here you go going into too much detail which is beside the point. Note that the .223 Remignton fits what? The .223 Remington rifle. Which is not classified as the assault rifle, but gets the same muzzle velocity. Mini-14 too, which is even semi-auto, but not assaulty. Both will produce the exact same x-ray Elixir was so impressed with upthread. That was my point. I never said anything about .22LR. I merely used .22 as a (rough, note the two sig figs) size of the caliber. Again, I did not want to make it too technical or detailed lest people's eyes glaze over.

The 5.56 NATO is the ammo of choice for military use in most western countries, and there is a good reason for this. That is because it is the most effective projectile for killing people and inflicting damage in short to medium range combat.
It's also good for killing deer.

That is why the officers at Uvalde took a fucking hour to storm the room and kill the shooter, because they knew he had an AR15 that could penetrate their body armor and shields.
So if anything, that particular cartridge should be banned or defanged. Make it less armor-piercing but as effective for hunting. I do not know if that is feasible, but it would be a million times more sensible than the "assault weapon" bans the Congress has been proposing.

The AR15 is designed for use in short to medium range combat, not for long range sniper operations. While a skilled marksman can hit a human target at 300 yards with an AR15, that is not its intended function. There are much better rifles for long range operations.
I said "longer range". Not long range, and certainly not what that is considered in the military. We were talking about mass shooters, and I compared the range to the close quarters one might find in a school or office setting.

A 22LR does nowhere near the damage that a 5.56 NATO round can inflict. If you shoot a pig in the head with a 22LR, you will probably just give it a really bad headache, unless you find a hole or soft spot in its skull. With a 5.56 NATO you will scatter its brains over a 50 yard splash zone.
I did not say .22LR. But if you will, the same holds for .223R. There are rifles not considered "assault weapons" that fire that particular cartridge. And that can therefore do as much damage.

Also, most serious hunters shooting game don't use semiauto AR15s, they use bolt action rifles. Because the AR15 is not designed for hunting game, it is designed to kill people.
Why would the semiauto action make it a worse hunting rifle? It's a preference. I guess many hunters find the cycling movements of the bolt action soothing. :)
Conversely, you can kill people with a bolt action rifle. You don't need a semi auto.

It is much easier for a novice to kill lots of people using an AR15 than a Glock 19, and I have been over this with you in the past. But you don't have to take my word for it. Go to a range, rent an AR15 and a Glock 19/17, hire an instructor for an hour or two, and shoot at a paper target at 10, 25 and 50 yards. Come back and post your groupings here.
I have shot both before, and obviously an AR15 will be more accurate, esp. >10m. But most mass shootings are in settings where they shoot at <10m. That's why a novice like the VT shooter could kill so many with a couple of handguns.

Ideally, any semiautomatic rifle/pistol that shoots a .223R/5.56 NATO using a gas impingement/gas charge system.
Would 7.76NATO be ok?
What about non-semiauto .223 rifles? They are slower, but ballistically just as devastating.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't start somewhere.
I prefer to start with people, not particular weapons. Make gun licensing, for all guns, mandatory and include a mandatory written and practical gun safety and handling test. And take enforcement seriously.
Chicago requires convicted gun criminals to register, makes arrests but won’t prosecute violators
What is the point of existing gun laws if they are not adequately enforced?
 
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"Gangbanger" is often a euphemism for person of color.
No, it is not. You lot want to pretend all terms for street-level violent criminals are just racial language.
In reality, all is needed is to be a member of a street gang. No particular race needed.
 
In the English speaking world, a person who is a member of a criminal gang is a "gangster",
Gangster conveys more of a notion of a Prohibition-era Tommy gun wielding motherfucker.
This:
Gangster-Squad-Sean-Penn.jpg

More than this.:
pulling-their-glocks


while a "gangbanger" is an individual who engages in sexual intercourse with more than one person simultaneously.
We know the sexual use too. It's a popular category on PornHub (link NSFW, obviously). But it's usually easy to tell from the context which usage is meant.

This fact makes reading posts by Americans on the subject unintentionally hilarious.
joe-pesci-i-amuse-you.gif
 
A gang bang is usually a euphemism for gang rape, which is actually different than consensual group sex.
Wrong. "Gang bang" does not imply lack of consent. It is, however, the act of several men penetrating a (usually) woman, often more than one at the same time (e.g. double penetration and/or spit-roasting). But there is no implication she does not want it, as opposed to a gang rape.

Gang bang is a proper subset of group sex, but obviously the latter includes a much wider range of configurations.
 
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I do, but I do admit I should have said "some rifles". I elucidated it before, if you have the same size bullet with the same powder charge and same barrel length the ballistics will be the same regardless whether the weapon is considered "assaulty" or not.

I did not say .22LR. But if you will, the same holds for .223R. There are rifles not considered "assault weapons" that fire that particular cartridge. And that can therefore do as much damage.
Another example of discounting the psychology of carrying a rifle that looks "assaulty".

Yes, people can buy rifles that shoot the Remington/NATO rounds and they can do so for less money. Those rifles would also be more accurate due to the longer barrel length and the ability to mount a high powered scope. But they seldom do.

No, people want the rifles that make them look like Barney Badass. People that want to look like Barney Badasses tend to be more violent than otherwise. These people should be suspect to being allowed to purchase any firearm at all.
 
A gang bang is usually a euphemism for gang rape, which is actually different than consensual group sex.
Wrong. "Gang bang" does not imply lack of consent. It is, however, the act of several men penetrating a (usually) woman, often more than one at the same time (e.g. double penetration and/or spit-roasting). But there is no implication she does not want it, as opposed to a gang rape.

Gang bang is a proper subset of group sex, but obviously the latter includes a much wider range of configurations.
To most people, it implies gang rape. The subset of women who enjoy and willingly take on more than one sexual partner at a time is much smaller than porn implies.
 
For some reason, some people get upset when the police kill someone who is not an immediate danger to anyone.
Often those people get upset even when the police kill someone who is an immediate ganger to someone.
It is so weird how many people expect police to act like trained professionals rather than gangsters who might be on their side. This time.
 
Really don't know crap about guns, do you?
I do, but I do admit I should have said "some rifles". I elucidated it before, if you have the same size bullet with the same powder charge and same barrel length the ballistics will be the same regardless whether the weapon is considered "assaulty" or not.
This is what you said:
Not to mention that you are still ignoring the fact that AR15s are not distinct from other .22 rifles, including hunting rifles.
I pointed out the factual inconsistencies in your statement
1. The AR15 does not use a .22 caliber cartridge, i.e. it is NOT a .22 rifle
2. The projectiles used by AR15s are NOT dimensionally similar to .22 caliber cartridges
3. The energy imparted to a .223R/5.56 NATO cartridge is an order of magnitude higher than that you could achieve with a .22 caliber cartridge.

Your statement that AR15s are not distinct from other .22 rifles is false.


The AR15 does NOT use a .22 cartridge, it uses a .223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO cartridge (bore of .224 or 5.56mm in metric - I know, why call it a .223 when it is actually .224?), which is a VASTLY different animal compared to the 22LR cartridge. The .223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO are almost identical and can be used interchangeably in most receivers (but not all), so I am going to treat them as identical for this discussion. Here are some of the differences between the 22LR and .223R/5.56 NATO cartridges:
Sigh. I did not go into that much detail, as I did not want to overcomplicate matters, but I did specifically mention powder charge upthread.
No, you made up some shit hoping nobody would call you out on our errors.

Typical weight for a .223R/5.56 NATO is 55 to 65 grains, that for a 22LR is 30 to 40 grains.
Grains? What's wrong with using grams?
Nothing. Take that up with US gun manufacturers.

Typical muzzle velocity with a 16-inch barrel is 3,000 to 3,400 fps for the .223R and 1,000 to 1,200 fps for the 22LR.
Typical energy of a .223R upon exit is 12 to 15 times that of a 22LR.

Here you go going into too much detail which is beside the point. Note that the .223 Remignton fits what? The .223 Remington rifle. Which is not classified as the assault rifle, but gets the same muzzle velocity. Mini-14 too, which is even semi-auto, but not assaulty. Both will produce the exact same x-ray Elixir was so impressed with upthread. That was my point. I never said anything about .22LR. I merely used .22 as a (rough, note the two sig figs) size of the caliber. Again, I did not want to make it too technical or detailed lest people's eyes glaze over.
A rifle that uses a .223 Remington round is, by definition, NOT a .22 caliber rifle. The .223 Remington cartridge was developed for military use in the late 50's for use with a new, lightweight assault rifle for the US Army. While some people use the .223 cartridge for hunting, it was not developed for, or is even a good choice for hunting game.

The 5.56 NATO is the ammo of choice for military use in most western countries, and there is a good reason for this. That is because it is the most effective projectile for killing people and inflicting damage in short to medium range combat.
It's also good for killing deer.
It is not the cartridge of choice for anyone who takes hunting seriously, other than perhaps farmers who use the AR15 platform to control feral hog infestation, which is a relatively recent development. And even in that mission, there are far superior solutions like trapping. The 5.56 NATO was NOT designed to kill deer and is not particularly well suited to this task, it was designed to kill people as efficiently as possible.

That is why the officers at Uvalde took a fucking hour to storm the room and kill the shooter, because they knew he had an AR15 that could penetrate their body armor and shields.
So if anything, that particular cartridge should be banned or defanged. Make it less armor-piercing but as effective for hunting. I do not know if that is feasible, but it would be a million times more sensible than the "assault weapon" bans the Congress has been proposing.
That was my whole fucking point. The .223R/5.56 NATO ammo, or anything that can inflict similar damage in humans in such an efficient manner, does not belong in civilian hands.

The AR15 is designed for use in short to medium range combat, not for long range sniper operations. While a skilled marksman can hit a human target at 300 yards with an AR15, that is not its intended function. There are much better rifles for long range operations.
I said "longer range". Not long range, and certainly not what that is considered in the military. We were talking about mass shooters, and I compared the range to the close quarters one might find in a school or office setting.
No. You said rifles need longer range. You clearly have no knowledge regarding the development and mission of the M4/M16/AR15 platform.

A 22LR does nowhere near the damage that a 5.56 NATO round can inflict. If you shoot a pig in the head with a 22LR, you will probably just give it a really bad headache, unless you find a hole or soft spot in its skull. With a 5.56 NATO you will scatter its brains over a 50 yard splash zone.
I did not say .22LR. But if you will, the same holds for .223R. There are rifles not considered "assault weapons" that fire that particular cartridge. And that can therefore do as much damage.
You said .22.


Also, most serious hunters shooting game don't use semiauto AR15s, they use bolt action rifles. Because the AR15 is not designed for hunting game, it is designed to kill people.
Why would the semiauto action make it a worse hunting rifle? It's a preference. I guess many hunters find the cycling movements of the bolt action soothing.
No, that's not it.

:)
Conversely, you can kill people with a bolt action rifle. You don't need a semi auto.
Just not as efficiently, or in the numbers you can achieve with an AR15. Especially when the shooter is a novice.

It is much easier for a novice to kill lots of people using an AR15 than a Glock 19, and I have been over this with you in the past. But you don't have to take my word for it. Go to a range, rent an AR15 and a Glock 19/17, hire an instructor for an hour or two, and shoot at a paper target at 10, 25 and 50 yards. Come back and post your groupings here.
I have shot both before, and obviously an AR15 will be more accurate, esp. >10m. But most mass shootings are in settings where they shoot at <10m. That's why a novice like the VT shooter could kill so many with a couple of handguns.
We have been over this before.

Ideally, any semiautomatic rifle/pistol that shoots a .223R/5.56 NATO using a gas impingement/gas charge system.
Would 7.76NATO be ok?
What about non-semiauto .223 rifles? They are slower, but ballistically just as devastating.
In an ideal world, no civilian would have access to any gun that can do more damage than a .22 Long Rifle can. But we don't live in an ideal world.


That doesn't mean we shouldn't start somewhere.
I prefer to start with people, not particular weapons. Make gun licensing, for all guns, mandatory and include a mandatory written and practical gun safety and handling test. And take enforcement seriously.
Chicago requires convicted gun criminals to register, makes arrests but won’t prosecute violators
What is the point of existing gun laws if they are not adequately enforced?
Take it up with the DA.
 
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