Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[bilby]

If your point is that most people in first world nations do not need firearms for personal protection: I agree

I accept your apology, and as a courtesy to you, I have snipped the part of your reply in which you double down on your completely baseless attack on something I only said in your imagination.

 

[ZiprHead]

That's how I'd expect you to respond. It's a very privileged viewpoint to say that people don't need to defend themselves.

Who said that?

 

[Toni]

If your point is that most people in first world nations do not need firearms for personal protection: I agree

I accept your apology, and as a courtesy to you, I have snipped the part of your reply in which you double down on your completely baseless attack on something I only said in your imagination.

You are so grandiose. Gratuitous garbled generous.

 

[Derec]

That contributed absolutely nothing to what I've said.

I guess I should have been clearer about where I agreed with you. I disagree that it contributed nothing.

Sure it was used as such, no shit sherlock, I'm saying that it should not have been.

It does not seem to have been the intent of the law, it was just poorly written to allow that loophole.

 

[Derec]

Me either. We should have a society to do that.

Society cannot always help you. In particular, police officers cannot be everywhere.
I appreciate that we are living in a society, and am happy that for example police exist, but that is no reason to disallow individual right to self defense.

We moved on from this shit a while back.

Unless in Australia police can be summoned to deal with threats in real time, which is not realistic even down under, then no you have not. As I said, police cannot be everywhere.

 

[Derec]

Yer jest a cowering weenie hiding behind yer gun!

Using firearms to defend your home is not being a "cowering weenie".

Take a clue from Home Alone. There are ways to defend your home that don’t require guns.

1. That's a family comedy. It's not a documentary on home defense.
2. Besides ...

I know, I know, it's an air rifle. But again: it's a family movie, PG rated.
They are not going to have a kid use real firearms.

For more than a half century I have successfully defended my home without having to shoot one single person!

 

[Derec]

That sound you heard was the point...you missed as it apparently hit hypersonic speed flying over your head.

No, that was the sound of bilby's point, such as it was, crashing shortly after takeoff.
Society is well and good, as are police departments. But since police can't be everywhere at all times, that means that sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself. It is therefore bad policy to disallow, or severely restrict, individual right to self-defense.

 

[Derec]

You say if a few kids have to die so I can defend myself that's okay.

If the "kids" say commit armed robbery then it's their own fault they got shot. Better they then their victims.

Teen Carjacker Shot, Killed by Concealed Carry License-Holder on Chicago's South Side

At approximately 2:09 a.m., a 23-year-old woman was sitting in a parked vehicle when she saw four suspects get out of a black sedan. One of the suspects then tried to open her car door while displaying a gun, police said.
The woman, who according to police is a concealed carry license holder, fired a single shot, striking the suspect in the head.
She then fled on foot from the scene, and another suspect opened fire, striking her in the left arm.
The suspect who had been shot, identified as a 17-year-old male, was taken to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead earlier this week, according to police.
The woman was treated for her injuries at a local hospital, police said.

She should have shot the other thug too.
3 teens injured after trying to rob concealed carry license holder: Chicago police

A 56-year-old man was in his vehicle in the 4700-block of West Arthington Street in Lawndale just before 6 a.m., when a vehicle with three male teenagers approached, CPD said.
One of the teens got out of the vehicle, pointed a gun at the victim and demanded his belongings, police said.
A struggle ensued before the victim, a FOID and CCL holder, pulled out his weapon and fired several rounds, according to CPD.
[...]
The 15- to 18-year-old driver of that vehicle was shot in the head, and taken to Mt. Sinai hospital in critical condition.
A second teen about the same age was found several blocks away with a gunshot wound to the shoulder. He was taken to Stroger hospital in serious condition.
A third teen, who was in the backseat of the suspect vehicle, suffered a broken leg in the crash, and was taken to a local hospital in fair condition, police said.

Police: 13-year-old dies after he was shot by car owner during attempted break in

Police believe four to five males were attempting to break into a parked car when the owner, a 34-year-old woman, confronted them. CPD said during the confrontation, one of the suspects pointed a gun at the woman.
The woman, who has a concealed carry license, took out her gun and shot a 13-year-old boy, later identified as Dion Young.
Young was transported to Comer Children’s Hospital in fair condition with a gunshot wound to the neck area. Young died from his injuries on Tuesday afternoon.

Just because you call them "kids" does not mean regular people should not defend themselves against them.
To quote one Hillary Clinton: "We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel."

Also, I do not think it's a coincidence so many carjackings with under-18 perps happen in Chicago. Kim Foxx won't prosecute them as adults, which gives those yoots extra incentive to commit those kinds of crimes.

 

[Derec]

Not surprising you'd be okay with kids getting shot. Kids getting shot is freedom, and righties love that.

If a "kid" is attacking you or threatening your life and limb, then I am ok with that "kid" getting shot.
And the victim should not be prosecuted.

 

[bilby]

Me either. We should have a society to do that.

Society cannot always help you. In particular, police officers cannot be everywhere.
I appreciate that we are living in a society, and am happy that for example police exist, but that is no reason to disallow individual right to self defense.

We moved on from this shit a while back.

Unless in Australia police can be summoned to deal with threats in real time, which is not realistic even down under, then no you have not. As I said, police cannot be everywhere.

Yeah, oddly, that doesn't appear to be necessary.

I don't have, nor would I be legally permitted to have, nor would any reasonable person expect me to have, a gun, nor a policeman at my immediate disposal.

And yet, bizarrely, I haven't bee a victim of crime even once, in the last two decades; And I have never been in a situation where I would have wanted a gun, nor do I know anyone who says that they would have avoided being a victim of crime if only they had a gun.

it's almost as though your rebuttal has zero relevance to the real world, and guns are simply not necessary to prevent crime.

 

[bilby]

Society is well and good, as are police departments. But since police can't be everywhere at all times, that means that sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself.

Yeah, I have been shot and killed three times this week already.

Damn you, government limiting my right to bear arms!!!

 

[Shadowy Man]

You say if a few kids have to die so I can defend myself that's okay.

If the "kids" say commit armed robbery then it's their own fault they got shot. Better they then their victims.

Teen Carjacker Shot, Killed by Concealed Carry License-Holder on Chicago's South Side

At approximately 2:09 a.m., a 23-year-old woman was sitting in a parked vehicle when she saw four suspects get out of a black sedan. One of the suspects then tried to open her car door while displaying a gun, police said.
The woman, who according to police is a concealed carry license holder, fired a single shot, striking the suspect in the head.
She then fled on foot from the scene, and another suspect opened fire, striking her in the left arm.
The suspect who had been shot, identified as a 17-year-old male, was taken to a nearby hospital, where he was pronounced dead earlier this week, according to police.
The woman was treated for her injuries at a local hospital, police said.

She should have shot the other thug too.
3 teens injured after trying to rob concealed carry license holder: Chicago police

A 56-year-old man was in his vehicle in the 4700-block of West Arthington Street in Lawndale just before 6 a.m., when a vehicle with three male teenagers approached, CPD said.
One of the teens got out of the vehicle, pointed a gun at the victim and demanded his belongings, police said.
A struggle ensued before the victim, a FOID and CCL holder, pulled out his weapon and fired several rounds, according to CPD.
[...]
The 15- to 18-year-old driver of that vehicle was shot in the head, and taken to Mt. Sinai hospital in critical condition.
A second teen about the same age was found several blocks away with a gunshot wound to the shoulder. He was taken to Stroger hospital in serious condition.
A third teen, who was in the backseat of the suspect vehicle, suffered a broken leg in the crash, and was taken to a local hospital in fair condition, police said.

Police: 13-year-old dies after he was shot by car owner during attempted break in

Police believe four to five males were attempting to break into a parked car when the owner, a 34-year-old woman, confronted them. CPD said during the confrontation, one of the suspects pointed a gun at the woman.
The woman, who has a concealed carry license, took out her gun and shot a 13-year-old boy, later identified as Dion Young.
Young was transported to Comer Children’s Hospital in fair condition with a gunshot wound to the neck area. Young died from his injuries on Tuesday afternoon.

Just because you call them "kids" does not mean regular people should not defend themselves against them.
To quote one Hillary Clinton: "We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel."

Also, I do not think it's a coincidence so many carjackings with under-18 perps happen in Chicago. Kim Foxx won't prosecute them as adults, which gives those yoots extra incentive to commit those kinds of crimes.

How many of these self defense cases used AR-15s or other military style weaponry?

How many of these defenders would have gotten a gun license and training if that had been required for them to own their firearms?

The fact that people use guns for self defense does not mean there shouldn’t be reasonable gun regulations enacted into law.

 

[Elixir]

How many of these self defense cases used AR-15s or other military style weaponry?

I’m sure that the fact that they MIGHT have had high velocity semiautomatic rifles handy served as an effective deterrent in all of those (handful of) cases.
Otherwise, why would Derec keep bringing up his list of single incidents where (other kinds of) guns were used in self defense?
Bad faith discussion? Or more of the profound ignorance he has consistently demonstrated regarding firearms?

 

[Elixir]

Society is well and good, as are police departments. But since police can't be everywhere at all times, that means that sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself.

Yeah, I have been shot and killed three times this week already.

Damn you, government limiting my right to bear arms!!!

Lol, I doubt that this poster has ever examined the data that correlates the ubiquity of guns to the rate of gun deaths… that would run counter to the impulse to be a sniveling weenie armed to the teeth.
”Police can’t be everywhere, but me and my guns can!”

 

[TomC]

the "kids" say commit armed robbery then it's their own fault they got shot. Better they then their victims.

By "kids" I thought @ZiprHead was referring to the huge number of child victims of gunshot.

Like Columbine, Sandy Hook, Uvalde, and such. Or kids killed by accident, due to poor safety procedures. Or my partner's grandson who offed himself with his daddy's gun.

Those are the kids I'm talking about. They are legion.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

the "kids" say commit armed robbery then it's their own fault they got shot. Better they then their victims.

By "kids" I thought @ZiprHead was referring to the huge number of child victims of gunshot.

Like Columbine, Sandy Hook, Uvalde, and such. Or kids killed by accident, due to poor safety procedures. Or my partner's grandson who offed himself with his daddy's gun.

Those are the kids I'm talking about. They are legion.
Tom

Those are exactly the ones I was talking about. Like the two kids in Dallas (IIRC) where the two fathers got into a road rage argument and started blasting at each other, hitting each other's kids in the process.

Again, the Barney Badass With Guns complex hurts kids.

ETA: Sorry, it was Florida.

Two men with road rage, shot and injured two children in Nassau County

Sheriff Leeper with the Nassau County Sheriff’s Office says Frank Gilliard Allison and William Joseph Hale have been arrested for attempted murder after they opened fire on each other while driving recklessly on Saturday evening.

www.wokv.com

Each of the men opened fire from the driver’s seat, and the barrage of bullets wounded a child in each of the vehicles.

Allison shot first hitting a 5-year-old child in the right leg, then Hale returned fire, emptying an entire clip at Allison’s vehicle.

Three of Hale’s bullets struck Allison’s car, and one pierced a 14-year-old in the back, causing a collapsed lung in the process.

The two men continued to drive aggressively until stopping to argue face-to-face.

Sheriff Leeper says officers had to physically restrain the men, while the children were sent to nearby hospitals.

The children are expected to recover from their gunshot wounds.

 

[bilby]

How many of these self defense cases used AR-15s or other military style weaponry?

I’m sure that the fact that they MIGHT have had high velocity semiautomatic rifles handy served as an effective deterrent in all of those (handful of) cases.
Otherwise, why would Derec keep bringing up his list of single incidents where (other kinds of) guns were used in self defense?
Bad faith discussion? Or more of the profound ignorance he has consistently demonstrated regarding firearms?

Yup. The hypothesis that guns are effective as a self defence mechanism, either directly or indirectly, can be easily falsified; It predicts that two similar societies, one of which allows gun ownership for "self defence", and one which only allows gun ownership for other purposes, will have significantly different levels of crime, with the "self defence" society being less crime prone in statistically measurable and significant ways.

When we compare the US and Canada, for example, we should, if this hypothesis is correct, see significantly higher crime rates in Canada.

That this test leads, not to the abandonment of the failed hypothesis, but instead to a flurry of goalpost movements and ad-hoc defences of the failed prediction, is all the evidence needed to conclude that "guns are good for self-defence" is a religious belief, and not a true statement about reality.

My favourite ad-hoc "reasoning" is "you need a gun because the police cannot be everywhere all the time"; It's one of those ideas whose only value is its simplicity. Even an idiot can understand this argument. Indeed, only an idiot would think it a compelling reason to own a firearm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How many of these self defense cases used AR-15s or other military style weaponry?

I’m sure that the fact that they MIGHT have had high velocity semiautomatic rifles handy served as an effective deterrent in all of those (handful of) cases.
Otherwise, why would Derec keep bringing up his list of single incidents where (other kinds of) guns were used in self defense?
Bad faith discussion? Or more of the profound ignorance he has consistently demonstrated regarding firearms?

Yup. The hypothesis that guns are effective as a self defence mechanism, either directly or indirectly, can be easily falsified; It predicts that two similar societies, one of which allows gun ownership for "self defence", and one which only allows gun ownership for other purposes, will have significantly different levels of crime, with the "self defence" society being less crime prone in statistically measurable and significant ways.

When we compare the US and Canada, for example, we should, if this hypothesis is correct, see significantly higher crime rates in Canada.

That this test leads, not to the abandonment of the failed hypothesis, but instead to a flurry of goalpost movements and ad-hoc defences of the failed prediction, is all the evidence needed to conclude that "guns are good for self-defence" is a religious belief, and not a true statement about reality.

My favourite ad-hoc "reasoning" is "you need a gun because the police cannot be everywhere all the time"; It's one of those ideas whose only value is its simplicity. Even an idiot can understand this argument. Indeed, only an idiot would think it a compelling reason to own a firearm.

You should be able to see the flaw in your test. If you can't:

You are assuming you can defend yourself against all crime. The reality is that most crime doesn't involve force in the first place and will thus be totally unaffected by how force plays out. Instead, let's look at a crime where force may be a factor and see how it compares:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/nternational-Comparisons-of-Hot-Burglary-Rates_tbl1_5196898

Strange how it seems US burglars are considerably less likely to hit a house where someone is home.

 

[laughing dog]

How many of these self defense cases used AR-15s or other military style weaponry?

I’m sure that the fact that they MIGHT have had high velocity semiautomatic rifles handy served as an effective deterrent in all of those (handful of) cases.
Otherwise, why would Derec keep bringing up his list of single incidents where (other kinds of) guns were used in self defense?
Bad faith discussion? Or more of the profound ignorance he has consistently demonstrated regarding firearms?

Yup. The hypothesis that guns are effective as a self defence mechanism, either directly or indirectly, can be easily falsified; It predicts that two similar societies, one of which allows gun ownership for "self defence", and one which only allows gun ownership for other purposes, will have significantly different levels of crime, with the "self defence" society being less crime prone in statistically measurable and significant ways.

When we compare the US and Canada, for example, we should, if this hypothesis is correct, see significantly higher crime rates in Canada.

That this test leads, not to the abandonment of the failed hypothesis, but instead to a flurry of goalpost movements and ad-hoc defences of the failed prediction, is all the evidence needed to conclude that "guns are good for self-defence" is a religious belief, and not a true statement about reality.

My favourite ad-hoc "reasoning" is "you need a gun because the police cannot be everywhere all the time"; It's one of those ideas whose only value is its simplicity. Even an idiot can understand this argument. Indeed, only an idiot would think it a compelling reason to own a firearm.

You should be able to see the flaw in your test. If you can't:

You are assuming you can defend yourself against all crime. The reality is that most crime doesn't involve force in the first place and will thus be totally unaffected by how force plays out. Instead, let's look at a crime where force may be a factor and see how it compares:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/nternational-Comparisons-of-Hot-Burglary-Rates_tbl1_5196898

Strange how it seems US burglars are considerably less likely to hit a house where someone is home.

Not strange at all. Who wants to deal with a problem- dealing with inhabitants- which does not require the inhabitants have a firearm.

 

[BH]

I have a friend whose granddaughter was killed a few months ago up in Dallas. she was in a car with relatives and they unknowingly drove down a street where two gangs just happened to meet and started shooting it out. The machine gun ripped her up and her insides fell out. The other relatives survived and were not hit but they had to see it.


Another man, a friend, was coming home after work and a man came up and put a knife to his throat when he got in his truck. He had a gun on the side of the door and shot the thug through the door killing him instantly.


Guns used by evil people cause a lot of problems and hurt innocent people but I'm glad we good can have them if we ever needed to defend ourselves.

As for the gangbangers they deserve to get blown away when they try to steal or kill with guns.