Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[lostone]

So why do you even bother to discuss the issue with people who disagree with you? Are you on a holy mission to discredit such people?

Here are some people on a holy mission. It's odd how those to be blessed by assisted death oppose it so much.

That is a group of people who don't want to die, not older people who do want to die. You are presenting emotionally manipulative material that has nothing to do with the issue of older people with painful lives that will only get worse who do want to end their lives.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So why do you even bother to discuss the issue with people who disagree with you? Are you on a holy mission to discredit such people?

Here are some people on a holy mission. It's odd how those to be blessed by assisted death oppose it so much.

That is a group of people who don't want to die, not older people who do want to die. You are presenting emotionally manipulative material that has nothing to do with the issue of older people with painful lives that will only get worse who do want to end their lives.

Actually, the good people working with Not Dead Yet are afraid of dying at the hands of a euthanasia fanatic. They don't want any so-called right to die because they are too busy working on a right to live and to live freely and happily. They fear assisted death knowing that it is a threat rather than a promise.

 

[bilby]

Fear is such a useful adjunct to reason and calm analysis of a situation.

It's never caused more problems than it has solved. Nor has it ever been used to justify denying people the right to self determination.

If someone else is scared of being murdered, that seems like a completely rational and sensible reason for you to demand the right to tell me what I can and can't do to myself, and to have your opinion enforced by law.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So who actually kill the dying? I understand that you want doctors to do it. Should they be trained to kill the dying in medical school? Should we make such killing a specialty that select physicians practice? Are there any age limitations on who seek PAS?

Anyway, I plan to support Not Dead Yet with donations, and I will try to see my congressman to warn him about this threat to the public health. I will ask him to outlaw PAS in all fifty states.

The only training needed is in what the criteria are. Any doctor will have no problem understanding the directions although they very well might be better served by a nurse setting the IV line as western doctors tend to be way out of practice with that sort of thing.

What should the doctor do if the poison doesn't kill the patient? What if the patient starts to resist?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The discussion has been about whether the disabled are the only group seeking death with dignity, and whether there is any indication outside of Nazi Germany that “death fundamentalists” is a thing that exists.

No one has seen any evidence of it, and when offere the opportunity to present some, you have admitted that you are not able.

That is not correct. The Terri Schindler case is but one tragic example of how the disabled are being targeted for death.

And we've already pointed out that you've got it wrong about her.

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

You rebutted nothing. You said you chose to believe the family over the doctors--never mind that it was absolutely clear-cut, tissue which is not present can't function.

I already rebutted what you're saying here.

 

[lostone]

The discussion has been about whether the disabled are the only group seeking death with dignity, and whether there is any indication outside of Nazi Germany that “death fundamentalists” is a thing that exists.

No one has seen any evidence of it, and when offere the opportunity to present some, you have admitted that you are not able.

That is not correct. The Terri Schindler case is but one tragic example of how the disabled are being targeted for death.

And we've already pointed out that you've got it wrong about her.

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

You rebutted nothing. You said you chose to believe the family over the doctors--never mind that it was absolutely clear-cut, tissue which is not present can't function.

I already rebutted what you're saying here.

You have rebuffed nothing. You have Only proven that you want to control other people's lives.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's also a freakish rarity for a body to go on when the brain has been so severely damaged. And for most all of human history her aneurysm or whatever would have killed her very quickly. There just isn't any history to help figure out the best thing to do.

I wouldn't even call it freakish. So long as the hindbrain functions the body will continue to live (albeit with impaired function) for quite a while. It's just there's normally little dispute about the situation long before it reaches her state. The removal of dead tissue is slow, normally it won't be so obvious on autopsy.

The Schindlers deserve a lot of credit for the way they treated Terri. It didn't matter to them how badly she was injured by Michael Schiavo--they still loved her and treated her as an important member of the family. They were perfectly willing to provide all of her care for the rest of her life.

So why did Schiavo so badly want Terri dead? I think he feared that she might recover to the point where she could let people know that he had attempted to murder her. The only way to make sure she never talked was to have her murdered by the state.

It's about the most heinous travesty of justice I've ever heard of. Obviously evil sometimes triumphs over good.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You rebutted nothing. You said you chose to believe the family over the doctors--never mind that it was absolutely clear-cut, tissue which is not present can't function.

I already rebutted what you're saying here.

You have rebuffed nothing.

"Rebuffed"? Yes, I think I've done that too.

You have Only proven that you want to control other people's lives.

I sure do if those lives involve needlessly harming the innocent.

 

[lostone]

You rebutted nothing. You said you chose to believe the family over the doctors--never mind that it was absolutely clear-cut, tissue which is not present can't function.

I already rebutted what you're saying here.

You have rebuffed nothing.

"Rebuffed"? Yes, I think I've done that too.

You have Only proven that you want to control other people's lives.

I sure do if those lives involve needlessly harming the innocent.

No one is harming the innocent. Your attitude is very Christian regarding assisted dying. The pagans of the past had no such attitudes. Consider Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Ajax of the Illiad. Suicide was considered to be a an honorable option when life had become unbearable or one had been dishonored. Many people still share those ancient attitudes. You would force your attitudes on them.

 

[lostone]

I'm really bad.

As usual you miss the point. I was commenting on your epistemic standard.

No. You called me a name out of frustration with my not agreeing with you. That kind of behavior reminds me of religious fundamentalists I've debated who take shots at me when they realize I'm an unbeliever. Fundamentalism can evidently impact the nonreligious as well as the religious.

But you're coming at this from a faith-based position. You're determined that you're right and that everyone who opposes you is lying and the facts that oppose you are false.

I've heard stories of "screwed up" suicide attempts. One girl ended up permanently blind as a result of her suicide attempt. That's the kind of insanity I want to prevent.

A much better idea is to see a doctor to discuss disease and disability prevention as well as palliative care.

But you continue to assume the doctors can do something useful. The problem comes when they can't.

I know of one person who fell on his (play, but metal) sword but only succeeded in ripping up his guts so badly that he was even worse off for the rest of his life.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So who actually kill the dying? I understand that you want doctors to do it. Should they be trained to kill the dying in medical school? Should we make such killing a specialty that select physicians practice? Are there any age limitations on who seek PAS?

Anyway, I plan to support Not Dead Yet with donations, and I will try to see my congressman to warn him about this threat to the public health. I will ask him to outlaw PAS in all fifty states.

The only training needed is in what the criteria are. Any doctor will have no problem understanding the directions although they very well might be better served by a nurse setting the IV line as western doctors tend to be way out of practice with that sort of thing.

What should the doctor do if the poison doesn't kill the patient? What if the patient starts to resist?

The first drug induces unconsciousness. It can be stopped without any aftereffects.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm really bad.

As usual you miss the point. I was commenting on your epistemic standard.

No. You called me a name out of frustration with my not agreeing with you. That kind of behavior reminds me of religious fundamentalists I've debated who take shots at me when they realize I'm an unbeliever. Fundamentalism can evidently impact the nonreligious as well as the religious.

But you're coming at this from a faith-based position. You're determined that you're right and that everyone who opposes you is lying and the facts that oppose you are false.

I've heard stories of "screwed up" suicide attempts. One girl ended up permanently blind as a result of her suicide attempt. That's the kind of insanity I want to prevent.

A much better idea is to see a doctor to discuss disease and disability prevention as well as palliative care.

But you continue to assume the doctors can do something useful. The problem comes when they can't.

I know of one person who fell on his (play, but metal) sword but only succeeded in ripping up his guts so badly that he was even worse off for the rest of his life.

I've found that amazingly, some people agree with me on this issue.

So you think it's the easy way out
Think you're gonna slash your wrists
This time
Baby when you do it all you do is
Get on my tits
Don't do that try try try baby
Don't do that, you got a good thing going now
Don't do it don't do it
Don't
Don't try suicide
Nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide
Nobody cares
Don't try suicide
You're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide
Nobody gives a damn

And as I'm sure Queen would tell you, relying on self-appointed assisted suicide advocates who promise you an easy way out is very foolish. Such purveyors of death can mess you up too.

And speaking of Queen, Freddie Mercury died of complications from pneumonia brought on by AIDS. He never committed suicide just like he implored people not to do in his song above. I respect him for that because he demonstrated that we can live and die according to nature without endangering others by promising them that suicide is "the easy way out."

 

[Rhea]

Still you conflate the group of people who have difficult but livable situations who do not want to die with those who have terminal and cruel conditions with no hope of relief.

I can completely understand why you would advocate vociferously for those who do not actually want to die. I agree with you on the need for protections to make sure this never happens.

But I don’t understand at all your callous disregard for people suffering torture who want to choose a death without torture.

You ignore the stories, you claim you don’t believe them, you dismiss them and then carry on with your path as if they don’t exist. But they do. There are people who are facing horrible painful deaths, and you pretend they do not exist.

It’s a strange mix for me while I agree completely about protecting the vulnerable and ALSO I want to protect those who ask for relief.

 

[TomC]

So why do you even bother to discuss the issue with people who disagree with you? Are you on a holy mission to discredit such people?

Here are some people on a holy mission. It's odd how those to be blessed by assisted death oppose it so much.

Please let me make one thing utterly clear.

I don't want you, or the people in the pic, to be forced(or even encouraged) to deliberately choose death. Not physician assisted or any other form of suicide. Life is valuable for it's own sake.

It's literally "all we got". Even difficult lives can be worth living. Another part of my story about all the AIDS patients I knew was bravery in the face of overwhelming odds against. People who fought through pain and stigma without hope that their situation would improve. Or even stay the same, it was a constant descent where just having a slightly better day than yesterday was a victory.

All I want is that people aren't forced to do and endure things that they really don't want. I want competent adults to remain in control of their own lives as best as they can be. Including you.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

You have Only proven that you want to control other people's lives.

I sure do if those lives involve needlessly harming the innocent.

No one is harming the innocent.

I don't believe so.

Your attitude is very Christian regarding assisted dying.

Well, aside from my reasoning having nothing to do with God or any afterlife, I suppose you're right. But it's illogical to conclude that if "Christians" supposedly share a position on this issue with me, then I must be wrong because you think they must be wrong. Even Christians are sometimes right.

And by the way, some Christians support assisted killing. They think it's an easy way to get to heaven. If heaven exists, then they will get there sooner that way. So your position seems "Christian" if we look at it that way.

The pagans of the past had no such attitudes. Consider Mark Anthony, Cleopatra, Ajax of the Illiad. Suicide was considered to be a an honorable option when life had become unbearable or one had been dishonored. Many people still share those ancient attitudes.

"Ancient attitudes" also allowed for infanticide, human sacrifice, slavery, and raping the women of those who lost battles. Do you think we should go back to those good old days?

You would force your attitudes on them.

Yes I would. I would without hesitation use force to defend the innocent if I could. Is there something you find objectionable about that?

 

[bilby]

Yes I would. I would without hesitation use force to defend the innocent if I could. Is there something you find objectionable about that?

The thing I find HUGELY objectionable about it is that you have appointed yourself sole arbiter of when that application of force is necessary.

If I decide it's unbearable to keep on living, you have made it very clear that you will use force to impose YOUR opinion on MY decision about ME.

That you dress up your unwanted, unwelcome, unkind, and inhumane use of violence to impose your opinions on others as some kind of virtue is, frankly, sickening.

Defending the innocent is one thing. Unilaterally declaring me to be "innocent", and therefore incompetent to make my own decisions about my own life, or to recruit assistance in implementing those decisions, is monstrous.

 

[southernhybrid]

Conservative Catholic Ross Douthat, editorialist for the NYTimes wrote an opinion piece a week or so ago about why he objected to Canada's latest updates on the freedom to ask for medical help for ending one's life. Yesterday, I read a few letters to the editor that I thought I'd add/gift to this thread. I think one of them may have agreed with Unknown Soldier, the others don't. Some had relatives that chose the option of assisted suicide and their family members described why they supported their choices. Read them if you'd like. I'll quote some of the points made.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/31/...Q01OupaaPy52hwYuox1Rm1-4rzCvEw&smid=share-url

In a 2022 Ipsos poll, 86 percent of the population continued to support the 2016 Supreme Court of Canada decision (Carter v. Canada) that overturned Canada’s prohibition of assisted dying. Too many people have watched loved ones suffer from irremediable conditions. That experience was barbaric, and they now want autonomy and control over their end of life.
In 2021, the average age of MAID patients was 76.3, and 65 percent of them had cancer. Canada’s MAID assessors and providers are compassionate and careful in their work. They abide by the rigorous criteria and safeguards.
The choice of an assisted death is about compassion, avoiding suffering and the fundamental rights of an individual. I’m sure many Americans without access to assisted dying wish their laws were as compassionate and progressive.

My brother, Peter, a resident of British Columbia since 1971, made use of Canada’s MAID laws in reckoning with the end of his life in October. He was originally diagnosed with cancer in 2005. It was finally his time to go, and he knew it.

He struggled mightily for 17 years, stemming multiple cancers, and living a highly fulfilling and productive life. But when his illness proved recalcitrant to multiple forms of therapy, he made plans to succumb to his cancer, dying on his own terms, with a minimum of pain and suffering.

His death was attended by his close family members and friends in addition to the gentle, courteous and professional staff of the MAID program. There was nothing dystopian about his life ending in this way. Rather than the end of civilization, his mode of dying was for him and his loved ones an elevation of a civilized life.

I think the vast majority of people, at least in Canada feel that assisted suicide is a humane option for those who are suffering and ask to have that choice.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I think the vast majority of people, at least in Canada feel that assisted suicide is a humane option for those who are suffering and ask to have that choice.

It looks like you have strength in numbers. While I realize that it can be comforting to know you are in the majority, truth and morals, at least to me, are not decided by a vote.

So speaking of Canada, I've long been aware of a case of a Canadian disabled girl who was killed by her father. In 25 years after conviction, Robert Latimer still believes he was right to kill his daughter, we read that Latimer poisoned his daughter Tracy by pumping exhaust fumes into his truck cab where he had trapped her. Latimer claims that Tracy's pain was "unbearable." As is usually the case, the supposed pain suffered by the person killed is testified to not by the victim but by the person who wanted her or him dead.

So in case you're interested in my side of this issue, here's a very enlightening article, "Lynching the Elderly and Disabled?" (Why We Need An Elder Justice Act). I certainly feel fear when I read about the true nature of assisted death and encouraging suicide, and I don't just fear death. I fear the abuse and neglect that result from seeing lives as not worth living.

 

[southernhybrid]

Anecdotal cases aren't meaningful. There will always be people who murder their loved ones, either out of hate or sometimes out of compassion. That doesn't make them legal or related to the issue we are discussing.

Btw, there was a case in my own small city well over 10 years ago, where a mother murdered her two sons who were victims of the horrible disease known as Huntingtons Disease. If you're not familiar with it, it's usually genetic, and it leaves the individual with uncontrollable shaking, some cognitive decline and eventually totall dependence. Her two adult sons had been in a nursing home for a few years, after becoming totally dependent, and she walked in one day, and shot both of them because she didn't want to see them suffer any longer. She was given a five year prison sentence, partly due to the fact that what she did, while illegal, was an act of compassion, and she was no longer a threat to society. I do think she was lucky to get off so easily, but I also understand how difficult it must have been for her to see her two sons suffer so horribly and giving her a life sentence would serve no purpose, imo. Huntingtons is one of the most horrible neurological diseases I've ever seen anyone suffer from, although over the years I spent as a home health nurse, I only had one patient with this disease. His wife was his caretake and she was having a very difficult time trying to provide care.

Most people don't kill their loved ones due to their suffering in such a horrible way, so I don't find your anecdotal examples as related to legal assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia as it's also called. In fact, sadly, someone with Huntington's wouldn't have the option of assisted suicide under the current US laws because it would be difficult to predict that they have less than 6 months left to live, if you can call that living in any meaningful way, and they may not be cognitively intact enough to be approved for help.

I just wanted to give you an example of someone who could no longer watch the suffering of their loved ones, so they killed them, in exchange for a prison term. It's rare that someone has the courage to even do that. Yes. I think it takes courage to be willing to give up your own freedom because you want to end the suffering of someone you love.

Anyway....I'll probably bow out of this thread, as we are getting nowhere. You aren't going to change your mind, regardless of the evidence provided to you that hastening death in cases where the end of life is near, and the person is experiencing intense suffering is kinder than making them suffer. It should be their choice, not yours or mine.

We're not talking about murder, as in the case that I just mentioned or in the examples that you've given us. I see those cases as unrelated to this topic. I hope that if I ever need it, I will have someone compassionate enough to give me the option to escape a life that leaves me with intractable suffering. Of course, I'd rather die while I'm still somewhat independent, without much discomfort, wouldn't we all?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I just wanted to give you an example of someone who could no longer watch the suffering of their loved ones, so they killed them, in exchange for a prison term. It's rare that someone has the courage to even do that. Yes. I think it takes courage to be willing to give up your own freedom because you want to end the suffering of someone you love.

There are also those that go the murder/suicide route. They value not having their loved one suffer more than they value the remaining value of their life.