Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[lostone]

I think the vast majority of people, at least in Canada feel that assisted suicide is a humane option for those who are suffering and ask to have that choice.

It looks like you have strength in numbers. While I realize that it can be comforting to know you are in the majority, truth and morals, at least to me, are not decided by a vote.

So speaking of Canada, I've long been aware of a case of a Canadian disabled girl who was killed by her father. In 25 years after conviction, Robert Latimer still believes he was right to kill his daughter, we read that Latimer poisoned his daughter Tracy by pumping exhaust fumes into his truck cab where he had trapped her. Latimer claims that Tracy's pain was "unbearable." As is usually the case, the supposed pain suffered by the person killed is testified to not by the victim but by the person who wanted her or him dead.

So in case you're interested in my side of this issue, here's a very enlightening article, "Lynching the Elderly and Disabled?" (Why We Need An Elder Justice Act). I certainly feel fear when I read about the true nature of assisted death and encouraging suicide, and I don't just fear death. I fear the abuse and neglect that result from seeing lives as not worth living.

I have long since concluded that you are not going to ever be reasonable about your fear of being murdered by a relative or persuaded by examples of someone who wanted to save their relatives from long term needless suffering. Your brutality is quite obvious. BTW, boy, I am 81. My son is very afraid that when my body fails, and I ask him to cut my life support off, he will be accused of wanting to do me in for the money. Do you get some sort of sexual pleasure from making other people suffer?

 

[lostone]

Whatever we say, will those who want to deny us control over our bodies listen? They even make our closest relatives afraid to act and help us .

 

[Rhea]

Unknown Soldier - I can see that you have deep concerns about abuse of this. I hope you are able to get information to support your feeling of safety.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Unknown Soldier, you are ignoring all the facts being laid before you about individual choice in intolerable situations and safety nets in the legislation, all of which should alleviate your concerns about assisted suicide being a cover for murder - but evidently doesn't.

Please answer this question.

What makes you the most appropriate person to make end of life decisions for me?

 

[southernhybrid]

In case it wasn't obvious, I want to be clear that I've cared for many people who were well into their 80s and 90s as well as those had various types of disabilities and I never thought any less of them, then I would a person who was fully independent. I still have good memories of our long conversations and the friendships I developed with many of my former patients in long term care or home health. In fact, in some cases, I was their only advocate and that was my favorite part of my job. To advocate for someone in need is its own reward.

Sadly, many of my former patients have died since I retired 5 years ago. I miss them and I certainly never would have suggested that any of them should have ended their lives. I'm especially thinking of one man who had an awful, rare neurological disease that was progressive. I was his nurse for over 10 years. He was about 10 years younger than I am, but he needed a friend more than he needed a nurse and we became friends during those years. To me, his life was just as important as anyone else's life. Fortunately, he had a very supportive family. So, please don't think that just because I support the right of assisted suicide, that I devalue anyone due to their age or disability.

I am well aware that ageism and prejudice towards disabled people is a big problem in the US. But, that's not the issue we've been trying to discuss here. I'm an older adult myself, and I loved caring for older adults from the time I was in my 20s and I learned a lot from my older patients. They lived through times that I never did and they shared their experiences with me. I wish all young people would realize how much they could learn from older people. I will never understand ageism, especially since most people will eventually be old themselves. Those who have this prejudice are missing out on a lot things they could have learned. It's okay for us to disagree on things without taking it personally. At least that's how I feel about these discussions.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Anecdotal cases aren't meaningful.

Is that true for everybody's anecdotes or only my anecdotes? I don't think what you're saying here is true at all because anecdotes can be very helpful in substantiating and clarifying concepts.

There will always be people who murder their loved ones, either out of hate or sometimes out of compassion. That doesn't make them legal or related to the issue we are discussing.

I don't think that claiming compassion as a motive for murder would hold up in most courts although it seems very popular on this thread.

Btw, there was a case in my own small city well over 10 years ago...

Wait a minute--didn't you just get done saying that "anecdotal cases aren't meaningful"? I suppose I have the answer to my question: Only my anecdotes aren't meaningful.

...where a mother murdered her two sons who were victims of the horrible disease known as Huntingtons Disease. If you're not familiar with it, it's usually genetic, and it leaves the individual with uncontrollable shaking, some cognitive decline and eventually totall dependence. Her two adult sons had been in a nursing home for a few years, after becoming totally dependent, and she walked in one day, and shot both of them because she didn't want to see them suffer any longer. She was given a five year prison sentence, partly due to the fact that what she did, while illegal, was an act of compassion, and she was no longer a threat to society.

I would never trust her! I'd give her life in prison for what she did.

I do think she was lucky to get off so easily, but I also understand how difficult it must have been for her to see her two sons suffer so horribly and giving her a life sentence would serve no purpose, imo. Huntingtons is one of the most horrible neurological diseases I've ever seen anyone suffer from, although over the years I spent as a home health nurse, I only had one patient with this disease. His wife was his caretake and she was having a very difficult time trying to provide care.

And I think that's a major reason for killing the disabled--they're seen as a burden. So if any compassion is involved in this killing, it is compassion for the killer rather than the victim.

Most people don't kill their loved ones due to their suffering in such a horrible way, so I don't find your anecdotal examples as related to legal assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia as it's also called. In fact, sadly, someone with Huntington's wouldn't have the option of assisted suicide under the current US laws because it would be difficult to predict that they have less than 6 months left to live, if you can call that living in any meaningful way, and they may not be cognitively intact enough to be approved for help.

Let's let them decide if their lives are meaningful.

I just wanted to give you an example of someone who could no longer watch the suffering of their loved ones, so they killed them, in exchange for a prison term. It's rare that someone has the courage to even do that. Yes. I think it takes courage to be willing to give up your own freedom because you want to end the suffering of someone you love.

As far as I know, the only time anybody sees murder as compassionate or courageous is when the murder victim is disabled.

Anyway....I'll probably bow out of this thread, as we are getting nowhere.

No you won't.

You aren't going to change your mind, regardless of the evidence provided to you that hastening death in cases where the end of life is near, and the person is experiencing intense suffering is kinder than making them suffer. It should be their choice, not yours or mine.

All I've seen are posts on an internet forum by anonymous people in which assisted death is lauded. I'd be very foolish to believe any of that.

I hope that if I ever need it, I will have someone compassionate enough to give me the option to escape a life that leaves me with intractable suffering. Of course, I'd rather die while I'm still somewhat independent, without much discomfort, wouldn't we all?

When the time comes to die, of course we want to choose to die in the least painful and least frightening way possible. But you assume that assisted death guarantees such an "exit." I think that that is an unwarranted and foolish assumption to make considering the track record of euthanasia and the mentality of those who champion it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A visit to the website linked above shows that this is a group of people who is looking to put legal barriers in the way of people who do want a dignified death.

That is not correct. Not Dead Yet like anybody else wants everybody to live with dignity and when their time comes, to die with dignity. It's just that they, like I, don't buy into this "assisted death with dignity" tripe so many people are falling for these days.

That appears to be the problem, what some people consider "dying with dignity" to be. They seem to mistake how people die in movies with how people die in real life.

 

[southernhybrid]

Anecdotal cases aren't meaningful.

Is that true for everybody's anecdotes or only my anecdotes? I don't think what you're saying here is true at all because anecdotes can be very helpful in substantiating and clarifying concepts.

There will always be people who murder their loved ones, either out of hate or sometimes out of compassion. That doesn't make them legal or related to the issue we are discussing.

I don't think that claiming compassion as a motive for murder would hold up in most courts although it seems very popular on this thread.

Btw, there was a case in my own small city well over 10 years ago...

Wait a minute--didn't you just get done saying that "anecdotal cases aren't meaningful"? I suppose I have the answer to my question: Only my anecdotes aren't meaningful.

...where a mother murdered her two sons who were victims of the horrible disease known as Huntingtons Disease. If you're not familiar with it, it's usually genetic, and it leaves the individual with uncontrollable shaking, some cognitive decline and eventually totall dependence. Her two adult sons had been in a nursing home for a few years, after becoming totally dependent, and she walked in one day, and shot both of them because she didn't want to see them suffer any longer. She was given a five year prison sentence, partly due to the fact that what she did, while illegal, was an act of compassion, and she was no longer a threat to society.

I would never trust her! I'd give her life in prison for what she did.

I do think she was lucky to get off so easily, but I also understand how difficult it must have been for her to see her two sons suffer so horribly and giving her a life sentence would serve no purpose, imo. Huntingtons is one of the most horrible neurological diseases I've ever seen anyone suffer from, although over the years I spent as a home health nurse, I only had one patient with this disease. His wife was his caretake and she was having a very difficult time trying to provide care.

And I think that's a major reason for killing the disabled--they're seen as a burden. So if any compassion is involved in this killing, it is compassion for the killer rather than the victim.

Most people don't kill their loved ones due to their suffering in such a horrible way, so I don't find your anecdotal examples as related to legal assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia as it's also called. In fact, sadly, someone with Huntington's wouldn't have the option of assisted suicide under the current US laws because it would be difficult to predict that they have less than 6 months left to live, if you can call that living in any meaningful way, and they may not be cognitively intact enough to be approved for help.

Let's let them decide if their lives are meaningful.

I just wanted to give you an example of someone who could no longer watch the suffering of their loved ones, so they killed them, in exchange for a prison term. It's rare that someone has the courage to even do that. Yes. I think it takes courage to be willing to give up your own freedom because you want to end the suffering of someone you love.

As far as I know, the only time anybody sees murder as compassionate or courageous is when the murder victim is disabled.

Anyway....I'll probably bow out of this thread, as we are getting nowhere.

No you won't.

You aren't going to change your mind, regardless of the evidence provided to you that hastening death in cases where the end of life is near, and the person is experiencing intense suffering is kinder than making them suffer. It should be their choice, not yours or mine.

All I've seen are posts on an internet forum by anonymous people in which assisted death is lauded. I'd be very foolish to believe any of that.

I hope that if I ever need it, I will have someone compassionate enough to give me the option to escape a life that leaves me with intractable suffering. Of course, I'd rather die while I'm still somewhat independent, without much discomfort, wouldn't we all?

When the time comes to die, of course we want to choose to die in the least painful and least frightening way possible. But you assume that assisted death guarantees such an "exit." I think that that is an unwarranted and foolish assumption to make considering the track record of euthanasia and the mentality of those who champion it.

I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say. We obviously have very different views on this, and I doubt we will ever convince each other to change those views. I will repeat that nobody should ever be forced to make the choice to end their lives with or without help. It must be a decision made by someone who is fully oriented and feels that their suffering is overwhelming and who asks to have help to end their suffering. It's not something done without a lot of support and careful consideration.

Yes, I did give an example of an anecdotal experience, mostly to agree with you that it sometimes happens but that it's very rare for someone to murder a family member due to their extreme suffering, but it does sometimes happen in very rare instances. While I would never condone murdering someone with Huntington's Disease, I can understand how difficult it must have been for the woman who killed her two sons to watch them suffer in ways that most people can't even imagine. She took full responsibility for her crime and never tried to justify it to anyone else.

I hope you understand that nobody here is judging anyone due to their age or disabilities, and nobody here has ever suggested that anyone should ever be forced to have help with ending their own lives. Of course that would be murder. It's just that a lot of us want that option for ourselves. I hope you can at least understand that.

That was really the only point that those who disagree with you were trying to make. I see no point in continuing this discussion. I think we've all explained why we feel the way we do. You are just as entitled to your opinion as the rest of us are. It's not unusual for people to disagree on topics like this. My hope is that there will never be any hard feelings, and people will try to understand where someone else is coming from when their opinion Is one that most of us don't support.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I hope you understand that nobody here is judging anyone due to their age or disabilities, and nobody here has ever suggested that anyone should ever be forced to have help with ending their own lives. Of course that would be murder. It's just that a lot of us want that option for ourselves. I hope you can at least understand that.

And certainly, that is the fraud of this thread. It should be titled "I am against euthanasia and all others are wrong" instead of purporting to be anything else. Unknown Soldier is doing a lot of accusatory posting regarding the motives of people in here with no real signs of being interested in discussion.

 

[bilby]

Let's let them decide if their lives are meaningful.

Agree 100%. (As, as far as I can see, has literally every single person who has posted on this thread).

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I have long since concluded that you are not going to ever be reasonable about your fear of being murdered by a relative...

I haven't feared being murdered by a relative since 1984. That year I managed to move out so that my cruel mother could no longer abuse me. I was so afraid of her never knowing what she would do to me.

...or persuaded by examples of someone who wanted to save their relatives from long term needless suffering.

I doubt that freeing people from needless suffering is the true motive behind euthanasia because if people truly wanted to make the world free of suffering, then they wouldn't inflict suffering to begin with. I will believe your stories only when I actually see evidence for them.

Your brutality is quite obvious.

And outlandish posts smearing me are quite obvious too. To say I'm brutal is ridiculous. I never needlessly harm anybody. If there is any brutality here, it is my telling the truth, and that truth is brutal.

BTW, boy, I am 81.

Considering your insult, I'm wondering if that's an age or some other measure.

My son is very afraid that when my body fails, and I ask him to cut my life support off, he will be accused of wanting to do me in for the money.

Things like that happen.

Do you get some sort of sexual pleasure from making other people suffer?

Sheesh--I think I'm making myself suffer by reading your posts. But I do understand your desperation.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Unknown Soldier, you are ignoring all the facts being laid before you about individual choice in intolerable situations and safety nets in the legislation, all of which should alleviate your concerns about assisted suicide being a cover for murder - but evidently doesn't.

So you insist I accept everything I read in an online forum as "fact." I can understand why you would so insist.

Please answer this question.

What makes you the most appropriate person to make end of life decisions for me?

That's a very strange question considering that I don't make any decisions for you and never will. But if I did have my way, I'd completely revamp healthcare in America. I'd clean up the nursing homes, hospitals, rehabs and clinics making them free of abuse and neglect providing the best medical care possible. I would also provide the best treatment available for anybody suffering with pain or discomfort. And for those who need to live in government-subsidized housing due to age or disability, I'd make sure that housing is clean, safe, secure, roomy, and located in areas with low crime and opportunities to socialize with nice people.

I could say so much more, but if I had my way, then suicide for the dying would become moot nobody wanting to make such a foolish and tragic decision.

 

[TomC]

But if I did have my way, I'd completely revamp healthcare in America. I'd clean up the nursing homes, hospitals, rehabs and clinics making them free of abuse and neglect providing the best medical care possible. I would also provide the best treatment available for anybody suffering with pain or discomfort. And for those who need to live in government-subsidized housing due to age or disability, I'd make sure that housing is clean, safe, secure, roomy, and located in areas with low crime and opportunities to socialize with nice people.

I'm totally with you here.
Totally.

I'm a hardcore ProLifer, and that's not just a pregnancy thing. It's about taking care of everyone as best we can. From unborn humans to foreigners to the sick and disabled and elderly,
everyone.

Yeah. Everybody.

I'm totally with you on that.
Tom

 

[lostone]

I have long since concluded that you are not going to ever be reasonable about your fear of being murdered by a relative...

I haven't feared being murdered by a relative since 1984. That year I managed to move out so that my cruel mother could no longer abuse me. I was so afraid of her never knowing what she would do to me.

...or persuaded by examples of someone who wanted to save their relatives from long term needless suffering.

I doubt that freeing people from needless suffering is the true motive behind euthanasia because if people truly wanted to make the world free of suffering, then they wouldn't inflict suffering to begin with. I will believe your stories only when I actually see evidence for them.

Your brutality is quite obvious.

And outlandish posts smearing me are quite obvious too. To say I'm brutal is ridiculous. I never needlessly harm anybody. If there is any brutality here, it is my telling the truth, and that truth is brutal.

BTW, boy, I am 81.

Considering your insult, I'm wondering if that's an age or some other measure.

My son is very afraid that when my body fails, and I ask him to cut my life support off, he will be accused of wanting to do me in for the money.

Things like that happen.

Do you get some sort of sexual pleasure from making other people suffer?

Sheesh--I think I'm making myself suffer by reading your posts. But I do understand your desperation.

What about soft suicide, not following your doctor's suggestions? Giving up your favorite foods, and so forth? What are old people supposed to get out of life?

 

[lostone]

I hope you understand that nobody here is judging anyone due to their age or disabilities, and nobody here has ever suggested that anyone should ever be forced to have help with ending their own lives. Of course that would be murder. It's just that a lot of us want that option for ourselves. I hope you can at least understand that.

And certainly, that is the fraud of this thread. It should be titled "I am against euthanasia and all others are wrong" instead of purporting to be anything else. Unknown Soldier is doing a lot of accusatory posting regarding the motives of people in here with no real signs of being interested in discussion.

That he is

 

[lostone]

I have long since concluded that you are not going to ever be reasonable about your fear of being murdered by a relative...

I haven't feared being murdered by a relative since 1984. That year I managed to move out so that my cruel mother could no longer abuse me. I was so afraid of her never knowing what she would do to me.

...or persuaded by examples of someone who wanted to save their relatives from long term needless suffering.

I doubt that freeing people from needless suffering is the true motive behind euthanasia because if people truly wanted to make the world free of suffering, then they wouldn't inflict suffering to begin with. I will believe your stories only when I actually see evidence for them.

Your brutality is quite obvious.

And outlandish posts smearing me are quite obvious too. To say I'm brutal is ridiculous. I never needlessly harm anybody. If there is any brutality here, it is my telling the truth, and that truth is brutal.

BTW, boy, I am 81.

Considering your insult, I'm wondering if that's an age or some other measure.

My son is very afraid that when my body fails, and I ask him to cut my life support off, he will be accused of wanting to do me in for the money.

Things like that happen.

Do you get some sort of sexual pleasure from making other people suffer?

Sheesh--I think I'm making myself suffer by reading your posts. But I do understand your desperation.

As if you had not offered anyone any insults

 

[lostone]

I have long since concluded that you are not going to ever be reasonable about your fear of being murdered by a relative...

I haven't feared being murdered by a relative since 1984. That year I managed to move out so that my cruel mother could no longer abuse me. I was so afraid of her never knowing what she would do to me.

...or persuaded by examples of someone who wanted to save their relatives from long term needless suffering.

I doubt that freeing people from needless suffering is the true motive behind euthanasia because if people truly wanted to make the world free of suffering, then they wouldn't inflict suffering to begin with. I will believe your stories only when I actually see evidence for them.

Your brutality is quite obvious.

And outlandish posts smearing me are quite obvious too. To say I'm brutal is ridiculous. I never needlessly harm anybody. If there is any brutality here, it is my telling the truth, and that truth is brutal.

BTW, boy, I am 81.

Considering your insult, I'm wondering if that's an age or some other measure.

My son is very afraid that when my body fails, and I ask him to cut my life support off, he will be accused of wanting to do me in for the money.

Things like that happen.

Do you get some sort of sexual pleasure from making other people suffer?

Sheesh--I think I'm making myself suffer by reading your posts. But I do understand your desperation.

If I am that much mentally challenged, and maybe I am, then you should give me the benefit of the kindness you claim to be offering to others.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Unknown Soldier, you are ignoring all the facts being laid before you about individual choice in intolerable situations and safety nets in the legislation, all of which should alleviate your concerns about assisted suicide being a cover for murder - but evidently doesn't.

So you insist I accept everything I read in an online forum as "fact." I can understand why you would so insist.

Please answer this question.

What makes you the most appropriate person to make end of life decisions for me?

That's a very strange question considering that I don't make any decisions for you and never will. But if I did have my way, I'd completely revamp healthcare in America. I'd clean up the nursing homes, hospitals, rehabs and clinics making them free of abuse and neglect providing the best medical care possible. I would also provide the best treatment available for anybody suffering with pain or discomfort. And for those who need to live in government-subsidized housing due to age or disability, I'd make sure that housing is clean, safe, secure, roomy, and located in areas with low crime and opportunities to socialize with nice people.

I could say so much more, but if I had my way, then suicide for the dying would become moot nobody wanting to make such a foolish and tragic decision.

Everything you say in your second and third paragraphs describes an honourable and just goal, but it doesn't relate to the issue here. Quality of health care certainly deserves a thread of its own.

Even if there was a well run and caring medical system there will be people whose disease processes make their lives intolerable. This is somewhat academic, as I live in a different country to you, but this is an isssue that crosses borders and you are on record in this thread as wanting to make that right to choose illegal.

Not one person in this thread is advocating for the right of societies, relatives or carers to terminate another's existence.

We each, as individuals, want the right to be aided if we ever come to the point where life is intolerable and we choose to end it, cleanly and quietly, without loved ones having to find the body and without having to forfeit the chance to say "goodbye".

We each should be entitled to make that "foolish and tragic decision". It is your right to choose for yourself, (and I am very glad that the person you encountered when you were considering it was empathic and concerned enough to identify that it was not truly your wish. What better proof could you have that the checks and balances work?).

You want to work to deny others that right.

That is neither honourable nor just.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

But if I did have my way, I'd completely revamp healthcare in America. I'd clean up the nursing homes, hospitals, rehabs and clinics making them free of abuse and neglect providing the best medical care possible. I would also provide the best treatment available for anybody suffering with pain or discomfort. And for those who need to live in government-subsidized housing due to age or disability, I'd make sure that housing is clean, safe, secure, roomy, and located in areas with low crime and opportunities to socialize with nice people.

I'm totally with you here.
Totally.

I'm a hardcore ProLifer, and that's not just a pregnancy thing. It's about taking care of everyone as best we can. From unborn humans to foreigners to the sick and disabled and elderly,
everyone.

Yeah. Everybody.

I'm totally with you on that.

It's what I've been getting at all along. We're not going to have that kind of humanitarian healthcare if the for-profit healthcare corporations have their way. For them dying patients represent a cost that needs to be minimized by minimizing the dying patients. The sooner they die, the higher the profit. So it's no coincidence that so many people are pitching to have doctors kill them. These big medical companies want people to believe that that's a better way for them to die.

It's really not so. The dying are often killed in gruesome ways. Those ways include not only starving and dehydration but other sadistic ways like freezing and drowning. It literally makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

A visit to the website linked above shows that this is a group of people who is looking to put legal barriers in the way of people who do want a dignified death.

That is not correct. Not Dead Yet like anybody else wants everybody to live with dignity and when their time comes, to die with dignity. It's just that they, like I, don't buy into this "assisted death with dignity" tripe so many people are falling for these days.

That appears to be the problem, what some people consider "dying with dignity" to be. They seem to mistake how people die in movies with how people die in real life.

I'm aware of two such movies: Ich klage an, the Nazi propaganda move and Million Dollar Baby, the American propaganda movie. Both movies portray euthanasia as "death with dignity" honoring the sick person with her choosing the "right to die." In real life, euthanasia is anything but voluntary or compassionate. Many people are euthanized against their will in horrible ways by people who hate them.