Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[Rhea]

And yes, they should be trained in medical school, just as palliative care workers/doctors are trainined to provide pain relief and curative medicine; and hospice care workers/doctors are trained to administer comfort while not providing any curative medications.

 

[bilby]

The killing is done by the person who asks for the death, and who receives the death. It is a suicide.

In all but the legal sense. Certainly in my jurisdiction, the law explicitly says that the cause of death for legal purposes is the disease or condition from which the patient was suffering. This ensures that such things as life insurance payments to their estate are unaffected by clauses in such policies that exclude death by suicide.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Here's a better screenname for you: Bubble Boy. The self-enclosed person with a mirror on the inside of his bubble and armor against information outside.

Let me tell you about my "bubble." I used to believe that physician assisted suicide (PAS) was literally "the way to go." I read Prescription Medicide by Jack Kevorkian and agreed with much of it. I even went so far as to phone The Hemlock Society to inquire about PAS. The woman I spoke to was very nice to me, and after listening to my story she gently and kindly talked me out of it. I got the impression that she felt a bit guilty that people were contacting them to ask for help committing suicide.

Sounds like she realized that you were not someone who should take that route.

Obviously. Not too long after I made that phone call to The Hemlock Society I heard that a woman who worked there "left" the organization. It turned out to be the second wife of Derek Humphry, Ann. She had a bad case of cancer, and Derek cruelly told her he wouldn't stand by her during her illness and that he would be relieved if she just committed suicide like his first wife had! According to the article, Ann’s Final Exit:

And suddenly Ann realized that the so-called right to die--which she herself had championed so long--can easily turn into a pressure to die. In a videotape filmed right before her death, Ann reveals the darker side of euthanasia. She says her husband never encouraged her to stay in there and fight the cancer. Instead, his attitude was, get out of the way as quickly as possible. The videotape uncovers other disturbing facts, too--for example, that the suicide of Ann's mother was not entirely voluntary. Ann says her mother wasn't really "ready to die." But "she felt pressure" from her husband, who was 14 years older, until she finally went along with the double suicide. Even more disturbing, the videotape reveals that both Ann and Derek sometimes helped a suicide along...We're sometimes told that sick people commit suicide to get relief from their misery. But statistically, that's not the case. The main supporters of assisted suicide are not those who suffer but those who watch them suffer--and who are worried about the responsibility and cost of taking care of them.

So I'm determined to fight this contempt masquerading as compassion. It's really foolish to believe how wonderful it is when the facts tell a different story.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The discussion has been about whether the disabled are the only group seeking death with dignity, and whether there is any indication outside of Nazi Germany that “death fundamentalists” is a thing that exists.

No one has seen any evidence of it, and when offere the opportunity to present some, you have admitted that you are not able.

That is not correct. The Terri Schindler case is but one tragic example of how the disabled are being targeted for death.

And we've already pointed out that you've got it wrong about her.

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

 

[Rhea]

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

No, your posts did not rebut the unequivocal fact that Ms. Shaivo’s brain was absent, and therefore removing a feeding tube was not murder because she was already dead.

 

[TomC]

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

No, your posts did not rebut the unequivocal fact that Ms. Shaivo’s brain was absent, and therefore removing a feeding tube was not murder because she was already dead.

That was an extremely sad episode.

While I'm convinced her parents were wrong, I can't really fault parents for clinging to their child as they did.

It's also a freakish rarity for a body to go on when the brain has been so severely damaged. And for most all of human history her aneurysm or whatever would have killed her very quickly. There just isn't any history to help figure out the best thing to do.

But again, that's not really what most of us here are talking about.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

...this group wants to dictate to you that if your disease is going to suffocate you over many days - that is your only choice, and be happy about it. Your death is going to be monstrous. They insist.

I have no reason to believe that Not Dead Yet wants anybody to suffocate. Of course they don't. But if you're so concerned about suffocation, then you'd better take a closer look at your own side of this issue. According to the article, Ann’s Final Exit:

Derek's first wife had suffered from cancer, too, and agreed to kill herself by drinking a cup of coffee laced with barbiturates. But she began to regurgitate the poison, Ann says. So Derek took a pillow and smothered her.

Derek Humphry, the founder of the Hemlock Society, denies this allegation, of course. But would you trust him to euthanize you? If you did, you might end up suffocating not from a disease but at the hands of a euthanasia promoter.

My main point here is that it is foolish to assume that there is any easy way out of life, and so it is foolish to believe those who tell you that they can grant you that easy way out. The "cure" here looks to be worse than the disease.

 

[TomC]

I have no reason to believe that Not Dead Yet wants anybody to suffocate. Of course they don't.

You don't seem to know much about terminal illness.

Back in the day, I knew more than one AIDS patient who died of pneumocystic pneumonia. It's an ugly way to die. A cross between suffocating and drowning.

That was just one of the many horrible opportunistic infections that actually killed AIDS patients. Back when AIDS was an untreatable virus it happened a lot.

AIDS didn't kill you, it just destroyed you and then you rotted while still alive.

Tom

 

[bilby]

My main point here is that it is foolish to assume that there is any easy way out of life, and so it is foolish to believe those who tell you that they can grant you that easy way out.

Then your main point is flat out wrong, as it is contradicted by pretty much everything we know, from a medical perspective, about death.

Some deaths are vastly more prolonged and unpleasant than others.

Anyone who has had a general anaesthetic knows that the experience of being made unconscious by that means isn't particularly unpleasant. Once such anaesthesia has been administered, any further action that caused death would be incapable of also causing suffering.

Of course, it would need to be done by someone assisting the person who is dying, because an anaesthetised person cannot act to kill themselves.

If I can find someone who will agree to assist my death in such a fashion, who are you to tell either of us that you forbid me from dying in that fashion - particularly when I know that the alternative is for me to suffer a long and painful death?

You are demanding the right to deny anyone else an opt-out from torture. That makes you a monster.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I have no reason to believe that Not Dead Yet wants anybody to suffocate. Of course they don't.

You don't seem to know much about terminal illness.

Please don't insult me that way. I never insulted you, so I expect the same treatment in return.

Anyway, after having almost died four times in my life, I have first-hand experience with a terminal condition, and, I don't see death as a preference over life, your stories notwithstanding.

Back in the day, I knew more than one AIDS patient who died of pneumocystic pneumonia. It's an ugly way to die. A cross between suffocating and drowning.

OK, these types of stories are very typical of those who champion legalized assisted death. It's almost always about somebody else dying and suffering rather than a first-hand experience. And some say the real issue behind the push for assisted death is the fear of being burdened with caring for the dying.

That was just one of the many horrible opportunistic infections that actually killed AIDS patients. Back when AIDS was an untreatable virus it happened a lot.

AIDS didn't kill you, it just destroyed you and then you rotted while still alive.

I have a horror story of my own if you haven't already read it. Derek Humphry of The Hemlock Society in an attempt to get his wife to commit suicide gave her poison that she swallowed but vomited up. Realizing that her suicide attempt might be unsuccessful, Derek smothered her!

It's very unlikely that this is an isolated incident. Those who encourage suicide obviously have little respect for life and little respect for the living if those living are deemed "life unworthy of life."

 

[lostone]

I have no reason to believe that Not Dead Yet wants anybody to suffocate. Of course they don't.

You don't seem to know much about terminal illness.

Please don't insult me that way. I never insulted you, so I expect the same treatment in return.

Anyway, after having almost died four times in my life, I have first-hand experience with a terminal condition, and, I don't see death as a preference over life, your stories notwithstanding.

Back in the day, I knew more than one AIDS patient who died of pneumocystic pneumonia. It's an ugly way to die. A cross between suffocating and drowning.

OK, these types of stories are very typical of those who champion legalized assisted death. It's almost always about somebody else dying and suffering rather than a first-hand experience. And some say the real issue behind the push for assisted death is the fear of being burdened with caring for the dying.

That was just one of the many horrible opportunistic infections that actually killed AIDS patients. Back when AIDS was an untreatable virus it happened a lot.

AIDS didn't kill you, it just destroyed you and then you rotted while still alive.

I have a horror story of my own if you haven't already read it. Derek Humphry of The Hemlock Society in an attempt to get his wife to commit suicide gave her poison that she swallowed but vomited up. Realizing that her suicide attempt might be unsuccessful, Derek smothered her!

It's very unlikely that this is an isolated incident. Those who encourage suicide obviously have little respect for life and little respect for the living if those living are deemed "life unworthy of life."

So why do you even bother to discuss the issue with people who disagree with you? Are you on a holy mission to discredit such people?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So why do you even bother to discuss the issue with people who disagree with you? Are you on a holy mission to discredit such people?

Here are some people on a holy mission. It's odd how those to be blessed by assisted death oppose it so much.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So who actually kill the dying? I understand that you want doctors to do it. Should they be trained to kill the dying in medical school? Should we make such killing a specialty that select physicians practice? Are there any age limitations on who seek PAS?

Anyway, I plan to support Not Dead Yet with donations, and I will try to see my congressman to warn him about this threat to the public health. I will ask him to outlaw PAS in all fifty states.

The only training needed is in what the criteria are. Any doctor will have no problem understanding the directions although they very well might be better served by a nurse setting the IV line as western doctors tend to be way out of practice with that sort of thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The discussion has been about whether the disabled are the only group seeking death with dignity, and whether there is any indication outside of Nazi Germany that “death fundamentalists” is a thing that exists.

No one has seen any evidence of it, and when offere the opportunity to present some, you have admitted that you are not able.

That is not correct. The Terri Schindler case is but one tragic example of how the disabled are being targeted for death.

And we've already pointed out that you've got it wrong about her.

And I rebutted all the arguments rationalizing Terri's murder.

You rebutted nothing. You said you chose to believe the family over the doctors--never mind that it was absolutely clear-cut, tissue which is not present can't function.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's also a freakish rarity for a body to go on when the brain has been so severely damaged. And for most all of human history her aneurysm or whatever would have killed her very quickly. There just isn't any history to help figure out the best thing to do.

I wouldn't even call it freakish. So long as the hindbrain functions the body will continue to live (albeit with impaired function) for quite a while. It's just there's normally little dispute about the situation long before it reaches her state. The removal of dead tissue is slow, normally it won't be so obvious on autopsy.

 

[Rhea]

I have a horror story of my own if you haven't already read it. Derek Humphry of The Hemlock Society in an attempt to get his wife to commit suicide gave her poison that she swallowed but vomited up. Realizing that her suicide attempt might be unsuccessful, Derek smothered her!

When you say “horror story of my own,” do you mean that you are Ann Humphry?
(whose death was tragic, and unnecessary, but was not by smothering from her husband, by the way.)

Tom was talking about his personal experience. Are you saying that Ann Humphry’s story is your personal experience?

 

[Rhea]

Unknown Soldier: I acknowledge that there are people on both sides of the debate; some who want a painless off-ramp, and some who want to survive as long as they can.

Do you acknowledge the same?
Or do you deny the existence of anyone who disagrees with you with respect to their own (end of) life?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...this group wants to dictate to you that if your disease is going to suffocate you over many days - that is your only choice, and be happy about it. Your death is going to be monstrous. They insist.

I have no reason to believe that Not Dead Yet wants anybody to suffocate. Of course they don't. But if you're so concerned about suffocation, then you'd better take a closer look at your own side of this issue. According to the article, Ann’s Final Exit:

Derek's first wife had suffered from cancer, too, and agreed to kill herself by drinking a cup of coffee laced with barbiturates. But she began to regurgitate the poison, Ann says. So Derek took a pillow and smothered her.

Derek Humphry, the founder of the Hemlock Society, denies this allegation, of course. But would you trust him to euthanize you? If you did, you might end up suffocating not from a disease but at the hands of a euthanasia promoter.

My main point here is that it is foolish to assume that there is any easy way out of life, and so it is foolish to believe those who tell you that they can grant you that easy way out. The "cure" here looks to be worse than the disease.

Your source is hardly neutral, nor scientific--thus not very trustworthy. However, even if he did smother her I'm going to take the position of so what? You are not giving any indication that she changed her mind.

What you don't seem to understand is that some of us have considered possible medical fates and we are considering ourselves on the receiving end of what you consider mistreatment--and we don't see it as such.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My main point here is that it is foolish to assume that there is any easy way out of life, and so it is foolish to believe those who tell you that they can grant you that easy way out.

Then your main point is flat out wrong, as it is contradicted by pretty much everything we know, from a medical perspective, about death.

Some deaths are vastly more prolonged and unpleasant than others.

Anyone who has had a general anaesthetic knows that the experience of being made unconscious by that means isn't particularly unpleasant. Once such anaesthesia has been administered, any further action that caused death would be incapable of also causing suffering.

Of course, it would need to be done by someone assisting the person who is dying, because an anaesthetised person cannot act to kill themselves.

If I can find someone who will agree to assist my death in such a fashion, who are you to tell either of us that you forbid me from dying in that fashion - particularly when I know that the alternative is for me to suffer a long and painful death?

You are demanding the right to deny anyone else an opt-out from torture. That makes you a monster.

You could build a machine, really the only need for a doctor is in case something goes wrong (say, IV line fails.)

 

[Rhea]

I went looking for this story about Derek smothering Ann - it seemed odd since Ann lived long enough for Derek to divorce her, years to pass, and Ann to commit suicide alone and with a videotaped message.

It turns out that Unknown Soldier has the story completey wrong.

***Ann** is the one who smothered someone. It was her own mother.

From the NY Times article (subscription required, I think)

She also confesses on the tape that her mother's death was not as antiseptic as portrayed in "Double Exit." After swallowing the barbiturates, Ruth Kooman had begun choking. "I got really scared," Ann says, her voice catching. "Derek had always said to me, 'Just use a plastic bag or a pillow.' And so there was a plastic laundry bag with her linen in it, and I took the bag and I very gently held it over her mouth." There is a long pause. "She died very peacefully. But I walked away from that house thinking we're both murderers."

And I think they were both murderers. They broke the law, and their actions would break today’s laws as well.


Edited to add: my apologies. Reading further I see that Ann accuses Derek of having done that to his first wife. However she might have known that.