Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Oleg]

And, there is a part of the brain that determines gender.

Trans-identified men do not have women's brains. They're different, perhaps, but their not women. Cannot change your birth sex. But I've no doubt that there is a biological basis to autogynephilia. Everything is in the head.

That's right. Nobody who gives trans care to children is going to do surgery to a minor.

That's not true.

Number of transgender children seeking treatment surges in U.S.

About 42,000 U.S. children ages 6 to 17 were diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 2021, nearly triple the number in 2017, a unique data analysis for Reuters found.

www.reuters.com

The Komodo analysis of insurance claims found 56 genital surgeries among patients ages 13 to 17 with a prior gender dysphoria diagnosis from 2019 to 2021. Among teens, “top surgery” to remove breasts is more common. In the three years ending in 2021, at least 776 mastectomies were performed in the United States on patients ages 13 to 17 with a gender dysphoria diagnosis, according to Komodo’s data analysis of insurance claims. This tally does not include procedures that were paid for out of pocket.

But, hormone therapy is reversible

But not harmless.

Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems

A number of women attribute their chronic health problems — including brittle bones and faulty joints — to use of Lupron while they were children.

www.statnews.com

There's also the matter that it stops genital growth. That will have long-term consequences whether the child desists or continues on as trans.

I don't understand the hatred towards trans folks,

It's not hatred. It's a recognition that children are especially impressionable and vulnerable to social contagen. And transgenderism is obviously a social contagen, as 80% of "trans" children desist once they're past adolesence.

Why detransitioners are crucial to the science of gender care

Understanding why people quit treatment is key to improving it, especially for minors seeking to transition, experts say. Researchers rarely touch the subject.

www.reuters.com

Many have said their gender identity remained fluid well after the start of treatment, and a third of them expressed regret about their decision to transition from the gender they were assigned at birth. Some said they avoided telling their doctors about detransitioning out of embarrassment or shame. Others said their doctors were ill-equipped to help them with the process. Most often, they talked about how transitioning did not address their mental health problems.

In his continuing search for detransitioners, MacKinnon spent hours scrolling through TikTok and sifting through online forums where people shared their experiences and found comfort from each other. These forays opened his eyes to the online abuse detransitioners receive – not just the usual anti-transgender attacks, but members of the transgender community telling them to “shut up” and even sending death threats.

“I can’t think of any other examples where you’re not allowed to speak about your own healthcare experiences if you didn’t have a good outcome,” MacKinnon told Reuters.

Because it's a cult.

 

[Jarhyn]

Maybe if some of you trans deniers would do some reading, you might realize that there is some research being done that provided biological support for transgenderism. Yes. That's right. It was originally done on cadavers of trans people. I'm sure you smart people realize that male and female brains have different amounts of white and gray brain matter. And, there is a part of the brain that determines gender. There has also been some early research using MRIs, CT scans and probably some other neurological tests that I've forgotten about, that shows that one can be born with a brain that doesn't match their sexual body parts. Yes. Of course, more research should and will be done, as scientists usually don't like to. make claims about things until they've repeatedly found the same results. But, this is something I find exciting and hopefully, it will help more people understand why some people identify as a different gender than their body parts. There has even been a few instances where the brain has a mixed gender identity. Perhaps that would explain nonbinary gender ID. These minority genders have been around throughout civilization, so why are we acting as if this is something new. It's just more out in the open in recent years and I've learned a lot by doing my own DD.

Based on my reading, I"m learning more about why it's so important to help young children who identify as trans at a very early age to cope and get help with transitioning in a safe way. Nobody. That's right. Nobody who gives trans care to children is going to do surgery to a minor. But, hormone therapy is reversible, so in those very rare instances where a young person thought they were trans but instead they were gay or simply confused etc., no permanent change will be done. I've also read that when someone changes their minds about being trans, it's usually due to pressure from family and community. It's sad to think what some of these folks must endure and it's understandable why the suicide rate is so high.

There is a clinic in Atlanta that has been very successful in helping trans children, but due to the law that's about to be passed, it will be much more difficult for children who identify as trans to get adequate care. The only positive in this law is that it allows those who are already in the process of transitioning hormonally to continue their treatments and if I'm not mistaken, those who identify as trans at a very young age, will be permitted to get medical help. I might have misread that part, so don't take my word for that.

I don't understand the hatred towards trans folks, but considering that the US is still very influenced by Christianity and hatred towards minorities, I guess that's the reason why so many people refuse to even try to understand people who are different from themselves.

Sure, Cis women may have some resentment and we may feel uncomfortable being around women who still have a penis. Social change comes more slowly, so I think the will change over time. To be honest, I prefer those single room restrooms because I really like my privacy when I have to urinate. I confess that I don't even like having other women around when I use the restroom. That's just me. I've noticed that more restrooms in my area have single room rest rooms available, so that might be the easiest solution to make all genders feel comfortable. having privacy using public restrooms, since US culture is a bit different compared to Europe etc. But, I digress.

Do your own DD with an open mind. Look up the scientific research being done to help us understand transgender or nonbinary gender IDs. Accept that some people are a little bit different and stop trying to dehumanize them. I was going to start a thread in the science forum about this but I became very busy and got distracted, so I'm just putting a little info here because I hate seeing so much hatred and misunderstandings related to minorities of any variety.

My biggest (and only) real concern on the science is, what happens when evil people decide that they would rather see people's brains be cut or twisted through some manner of poison rather than allow them to have their identity and pursue hormonal change pursuant to their brain chemistry?

What happens when someone wishes, for instance, to be a eunuch without presenting any discordance from their apparent "mode"?

What happens when a MAN, unquestionably and unwaveringly a man, wishes to have breasts, and has always wanted this?

I get the science and all, but philosophically, ethically, that can be used as yet another excuse to block the path someone would take to self-actualization.

And then we have people having to had it explained to them that there are no such thing as "woman brains" or "man brains" but there ARE clearly such things as "brains that control a body in a significantly more friendly or personable or at least internally sustainable way when plied with (testosterone/estrogen/neither)"

It's an undeniable fact that a chemical can and will have a material effect on the system that generates behavior by a brain so tooled to respond.

It is also an undeniable fact that any brain configuration can present alongside any configuration of genital, because the processes are driven by different chemicals and different times on different ends of a deformable mass.

 

[Bomb#20]

Maybe if some of you trans deniers would do some reading, you might realize that there is some research being done that provided biological support for transgenderism. Yes. That's right.

Who are these "trans deniers" you're talking to? Who here is denying transgenderism exists? Who is saying there's no biological support for it? Do you think this forum is full of theists who believe people have souls, minds that aren't brains? Obviously when a biological female feels she's male there's a biological reason for it. Everything she feels has a biological reason.

It was originally done on cadavers of trans people. I'm sure you smart people realize that male and female brains have different amounts of white and gray brain matter. ... There has also been some early research using MRIs, CT scans and probably some other neurological tests that I've forgotten about, that shows that one can be born with a brain that doesn't match their sexual body parts.

Like the rest of our anatomy, brains have a huge number of measurable characteristics whose statistical distributions are different for males and females. Trans people's brains are on average more similar to brains of people of the opposite sex for some of those characteristics, and more similar to brains of their own sex for others. Classifying someone as having a male brain or a female brain based on measurement of one characteristic is cherry-picking.

And, there is a part of the brain that determines gender. ... But, this is something I find exciting and hopefully, it will help more people understand why some people identify as a different gender than their body parts. There has even been a few instances where the brain has a mixed gender identity. Perhaps that would explain nonbinary gender ID. These minority genders have been around throughout civilization, so why are we acting as if this is something new.

You appear to be casually equating "gender" and "gender identity". Do you have evidence that those are the same thing?

Nobody. That's right. Nobody who gives trans care to children is going to do surgery to a minor.

You say this, and you're the one calling other people "deniers"?

But, hormone therapy is reversible, so in those very rare instances where a young person thought they were trans but instead they were gay or simply confused etc., no permanent change will be done.

Do you have evidence for that claim? Emily has posted links describing permanent changes resulting from hormone therapy.

I've also read that when someone changes their minds about being trans, it's usually due to pressure from family and community. It's sad to think what some of these folks must endure and it's understandable why the suicide rate is so high.

There are anecdotal reports of people being pressured to detransition, and also anecdotal reports of people being pressured not to detransition. Getting reliable data on how common the directions of pressure are strikes me as very difficult.

I don't understand the hatred towards trans folks, but considering that the US is still very influenced by Christianity and hatred towards minorities, I guess that's the reason why so many people refuse to even try to understand people who are different from themselves.

If you're referring to anyone on IIDB, what is your evidence that anyone here has "hatred" toward trans folks?

There is a strong tendency among the partisans of one particular political ideology to trump-up accusations of "hatred" against other people merely for not subscribing to their ideology. It's an ad hominem argument, a comforting story they tell themselves to give themselves permission to dismiss opposing arguments and avoid applying critical thought to their own opinions.

Sure, Cis women may have some resentment and we may feel uncomfortable being around women who still have a penis. Social change comes more slowly, so I think the will change over time.

One way it will change faster is if, instead of letting M-to-F transitioners use women's bathrooms, we just abolish women's bathrooms altogether and make all the bathrooms "gender-neutral". That way a whole new generation of women will grow up who never had any expectation of not being watched and listened to by men while they do bathroom stuff. Of course that means the current generation get thrown under the bus. Some women will need to simply avoid public restrooms altogether. They'll just stay home, or they'll dehydrate themselves for hours to avoid needing to pee, or they'll do like one woman I know who put up curtains in her car and went out to the parking lot to pee because she was physiologically unable to make her muscles relax when there was a man in the next stall. Judging from the proliferation of the de facto men's rooms labeled "gender-neutral", an awful lot of so-called "trans-allies" appear to have decided throwing a generation of women under the bus is the best solution. If those of us with more compassion than that thought like left-wingers we'd deduce that they hate women.

To be honest, I prefer those single room restrooms because I really like my privacy when I have to urinate.

Those are an excellent solution, one that provides inclusiveness for everyone, not just for those high on the progressive stack. But per toilet, single-room restrooms are expensive, so it will be a long time before public places have largely retooled.

I confess that I don't even like having other women around when I use the restroom. That's just me.

That's not just you; and it's not something you need to "confess". It's entirely normal and not something to feel shame about. Privacy matters.

Do your own DD with an open mind. Look up the scientific research being done to help us understand transgender or nonbinary gender IDs. Accept that some people are a little bit different and stop trying to dehumanize them.

Who here has dehumanized them?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's not hatred. It's a recognition that children are especially impressionable and vulnerable to social contagen. And transgenderism is obviously a social contagen, as 80% of "trans" children desist once they're past adolesence.

You're right that children are impressionable--which is why this battle exists. Your side wants to stamp out any signs of anything other than what's Christian White Nationalist approved so kids think that's the way things should be.

And where is that 80% figure coming from, given that over 90% of those on puberty blockers go on to transition? Are you counting those that the therapists thought would change their mind?

 

[TomC]

You're right that children are impressionable--which is why this battle exists. Your side wants to stamp out any signs of anything other than what's Christian White Nationalist approved so kids think that's the way things should be.

His side includes me. Gay nontheist prude.

I also oppose messing with the development of young humans and their bodies. There's a raft of decisions a youngster might choose, but they need protecting from making.

I understand how problematic this is for a small number of people. I've got nothing but sympathy for trans people. I cannot imagine what it would be like to wish for a differently sexed body. I'm queer as a three dollar bill, but I've always been male and never wanted anything else. I'm very attached to my boys down there.

But I still think that kids need protecting from their own decisions more often than not. Especially decisions that can easily be driven by outside pressure, angsty insecurities, and mental illness.

There's no good solution.
Tom

 

[Oleg]

And where is that 80% figure coming from, given that over 90% of those on puberty blockers go on to transition? Are you counting those that the therapists thought would change their mind?

Gender dysphoria in adolescence: current perspectives - PMC

Increasing numbers of adolescents are seeking treatment at gender identity services in Western countries. An increasingly accepted treatment model that includes puberty suppression with gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogs starting during the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. Instead, many of these adolescents will identify as non-heterosexual.

Gotta trans the gay away.

 

[ZiprHead]

And where is that 80% figure coming from, given that over 90% of those on puberty blockers go on to transition? Are you counting those that the therapists thought would change their mind?

Gender dysphoria in adolescence: current perspectives - PMC

Increasing numbers of adolescents are seeking treatment at gender identity services in Western countries. An increasingly accepted treatment model that includes puberty suppression with gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogs starting during the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. Instead, many of these adolescents will identify as non-heterosexual.

Gotta trans the gay away.

Too bad you didn't read the rest of the report.

 

[Oleg]

And where is that 80% figure coming from, given that over 90% of those on puberty blockers go on to transition? Are you counting those that the therapists thought would change their mind?

Gender dysphoria in adolescence: current perspectives - PMC

Increasing numbers of adolescents are seeking treatment at gender identity services in Western countries. An increasingly accepted treatment model that includes puberty suppression with gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogs starting during the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. Instead, many of these adolescents will identify as non-heterosexual.

Gotta trans the gay away.

Too bad you didn't read the rest of the report.

You’re just going to ignore that the vast majority of these kids would grow up fine (and probably gay or lesbian) if we left them alone?

 

[Toni]

One way it will change faster is if, instead of letting M-to-F transitioners use women's bathrooms, we just abolish women's bathrooms altogether and make all the bathrooms "gender-neutral". That way a whole new generation of women will grow up who never had any expectation of not being watched and listened to by men while they do bathroom stuff. Of course that means the current generation get thrown under the bus. Some women will need to simply avoid public restrooms altogether. They'll just stay home, or they'll dehydrate themselves for hours to avoid needing to pee, or they'll do like one woman I know who put up curtains in her car and went out to the parking lot to pee because she was physiologically unable to make her muscles relax when there was a man in the next stall. Judging from the proliferation of the de facto men's rooms labeled "gender-neutral", an awful lot of so-called "trans-allies" appear to have decided throwing a generation of women under the bus is the best solution. If those of us with more compassion than that thought like left-wingers we'd deduce that they hate women.

Eliminate men's rooms until men can start to act like decent human beings and not harass, threaten or make other people who lack whatever level of masculinity that they deem acceptable afraid or uncomfortable. They can just dehydrate themselves and hold it until they get home where they can be as disgusting as they want. And the women in their lives can call the police as needed.

 

[southernhybrid]

Actually, I prefer the single usage rest rooms that can be used by any gender. That allows for privacy if that's what matters. I don't find that a lot of women aren't any better at keeping the rest rooms clean compared to men. Some women pee on the seat and don't bother to wipe it or they don't flush their shit down the toilet, or they leave paper towels etc. on the floor. I like the slogan my favorite nursing instructor had on the bathroom door.

"If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

This thread needed a little humor. Thanks Becky Garcia, the best nursing instructor I've ever known! The fact that I remember her name after about 50 years says something.

 

[thebeave]

Actually, I prefer the single usage rest rooms that can be used by any gender. That allows for privacy if that's what matters. I don't find that a lot of women aren't any better at keeping the rest rooms clean compared to men. Some women pee on the seat and don't bother to wipe it or they don't flush their shit down the toilet, or they leave paper towels etc. on the floor. I like the slogan my favorite nursing instructor had on the bathroom door.

"If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

This thread needed a little humor. Thanks Becky Garcia, the best nursing instructor I've ever known! The fact that I remember her name after about 50 years says something.

The single usage restrooms are nice, I would agree with that. But what are going to do for big venue, like a sports stadium or concert hall? Having single use bathrooms is completely out of the question. You'd have to double or triple the square footage of the whole complex! The mens' rooms in some older stadiums have a long trough for men to urinate in, which I find kind of uncomfortable and awkward. Creepos checking you out, while a giant river of pee goes by.... . I hate those, but there is definitely a practicality to it. At least you ladies have your own stalls (I think?!).

 

[Toni]

You're right that children are impressionable--which is why this battle exists. Your side wants to stamp out any signs of anything other than what's Christian White Nationalist approved so kids think that's the way things should be.

His side includes me. Gay nontheist prude.

I also oppose messing with the development of young humans and their bodies. There's a raft of decisions a youngster might choose, but they need protecting from making.

I understand how problematic this is for a small number of people. I've got nothing but sympathy for trans people. I cannot imagine what it would be like to wish for a differently sexed body. I'm queer as a three dollar bill, but I've always been male and never wanted anything else. I'm very attached to my boys down there.

But I still think that kids need protecting from their own decisions more often than not. Especially decisions that can easily be driven by outside pressure, angsty insecurities, and mental illness.

There's no good solution.
Tom

Do you think that kids in general need protection from their own decisions or just trans kids?

 

[TomC]

You're right that children are impressionable--which is why this battle exists. Your side wants to stamp out any signs of anything other than what's Christian White Nationalist approved so kids think that's the way things should be.

His side includes me. Gay nontheist prude.

I also oppose messing with the development of young humans and their bodies. There's a raft of decisions a youngster might choose, but they need protecting from making.

I understand how problematic this is for a small number of people. I've got nothing but sympathy for trans people. I cannot imagine what it would be like to wish for a differently sexed body. I'm queer as a three dollar bill, but I've always been male and never wanted anything else. I'm very attached to my boys down there.

But I still think that kids need protecting from their own decisions more often than not. Especially decisions that can easily be driven by outside pressure, angsty insecurities, and mental illness.

There's no good solution.
Tom

Do you think that kids in general need protection from their own decisions or just trans kids?

Depends on age and context a good bit, but generally all kids.
Tom

 

[southernhybrid]

Actually, I prefer the single usage rest rooms that can be used by any gender. That allows for privacy if that's what matters. I don't find that a lot of women aren't any better at keeping the rest rooms clean compared to men. Some women pee on the seat and don't bother to wipe it or they don't flush their shit down the toilet, or they leave paper towels etc. on the floor. I like the slogan my favorite nursing instructor had on the bathroom door.

"If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

This thread needed a little humor. Thanks Becky Garcia, the best nursing instructor I've ever known! The fact that I remember her name after about 50 years says something.

The single usage restrooms are nice, I would agree with that. But what are going to do for big venue, like a sports stadium or concert hall? Having single use bathrooms is completely out of the question. You'd have to double or triple the square footage of the whole complex! The mens' rooms in some older stadiums have a long trough for men to urinate in, which I find kind of uncomfortable and awkward. Creepos checking you out, while a giant river of pee goes by.... . I hate those, but there is definitely a practicality to it. At least you ladies have your own stalls (I think?!).

You're right. Single use bathrooms aren't practical in some places, but since I'm old and never go to those places any longer, I guess it's not my concern, and I don't know what the answer is to that problem. Yes. we ladies do have private stalls, so that does help. I do use the public restrooms on the Interstates when we travel, although we haven't traveled in many years. Those places aren't bad because they are usually very clean and there are so many women in them that nobody really bothers with what others are doing. It's like we have to pee so bad so who cares who else in here with us.

I once had a traveling job where I did quality control reviews in nursing homes all over the state, and my husband would tell people that I knew where every Hardees was in the state of North Carolina. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go and when it's urgent, you really don't worry about who else might be in the restroom, or for that matter, how dirty it is.

I've known women who refused to use public restrooms of any kind because they were afraid of germs. I can't imagine that, plus holding your urine is a big risk factor for UTIs. Ironic isn't it? Are we off topic enough yet?

 

[TomC]

I've known women who refused to use public restrooms of any kind because they were afraid of germs. I can't imagine that, plus holding your urine is a big risk factor for UTIs. Ironic isn't it? Are we off topic enough yet?

I don't think you're off topic at all.

I'm no germophobe, I carefully avoid situations where I'd need to sit on a public toilet. But that's easy for a guy.
Tom

 

[Toni]

"If you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

This thread needed a little humor. Thanks Becky Garcia, the best nursing instructor I've ever known! The fact that I remember her name after about 50 years says something.

The single usage restrooms are nice, I would agree with that. But what are going to do for big venue, like a sports stadium or concert hall? Having single use bathrooms is completely out of the question. You'd have to double or triple the square footage of the whole complex! The mens' rooms in some older stadiums have a long trough for men to urinate in, which I find kind of uncomfortable and awkward. Creepos checking you out, while a giant river of pee goes by.... . I hate those, but there is definitely a practicality to it. At least you ladies have your own stalls (I think?!).

You're right. Single use bathrooms aren't practical in some places, but since I'm old and never go to those places any longer, I guess it's not my concern, and I don't know what the answer is to that problem. Yes. we ladies do have private stalls, so that does help. I do use the public restrooms on the Interstates when we travel, although we haven't traveled in many years. Those places aren't bad because they are usually very clean and there are so many women in them that nobody really bothers with what others are doing. It's like we have to pee so bad so who cares who else in here with us.

I once had a traveling job where I did quality control reviews in nursing homes all over the state, and my husband would tell people that I knew where every Hardees was in the state of North Carolina. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go and when it's urgent, you really don't worry about who else might be in the restroom, or for that matter, how dirty it is.

I've known women who refused to use public restrooms of any kind because they were afraid of germs. I can't imagine that, plus holding your urine is a big risk factor for UTIs. Ironic isn't it? Are we off topic enough yet?

McDonalds bathrooms are almost always clean. That’s where I stop when traveling alone. Roadside rest stops are fine usually but combining a stop at McDonalds let me grab a quick sandwich or nuggets for kids when I traveled with them. It simply became a habit and what I’d be able to truthfully tell my father who still worried about whether I would be safe long after I married and had grown children of my own.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'll go wherever I can. Hardees was started in NC, so there are lots of them all over the interstates. It wasn't that I had a love of Hardees, they were just a lot more of them compared to other fast food places. I usually try to at least buy a soft drink if I use a fast food rest room.

Interestingly enough, there was an article in one of the papers I read this morning about the terrible shortage of public rest rooms in large cities. I always hated that about New York City. We used to visit the city almost every year when we were younger and it was very difficult to find a place to go. That's not very welcoming, but imo, New York City, despite the fun things to do, is not a very welcoming place.. Once an old woman in Soho, passed us by while we were reading the venue of a restaurant. She stopped, gave us a nasty stare and said, "Damn tourists". Yup. That's New York City. Now, I'm really off topic. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Toni]

You're right that children are impressionable--which is why this battle exists. Your side wants to stamp out any signs of anything other than what's Christian White Nationalist approved so kids think that's the way things should be.

His side includes me. Gay nontheist prude.

I also oppose messing with the development of young humans and their bodies. There's a raft of decisions a youngster might choose, but they need protecting from making.

I understand how problematic this is for a small number of people. I've got nothing but sympathy for trans people. I cannot imagine what it would be like to wish for a differently sexed body. I'm queer as a three dollar bill, but I've always been male and never wanted anything else. I'm very attached to my boys down there.

But I still think that kids need protecting from their own decisions more often than not. Especially decisions that can easily be driven by outside pressure, angsty insecurities, and mental illness.

There's no good solution.
Tom

Do you think that kids in general need protection from their own decisions or just trans kids?

Depends on age and context a good bit, but generally all kids.
Tom

I started to write a very long response disagreeing with you but I realize that what I was disagreeing with was really just semantics.

Society limits choices of all people in various ways large and small and attaches penalties for violating rules and laws. This includes everything like traffic laws---we can't all just make our own decisions to drive on whichever side of the road we feel like on any given day, for instance. And there are definitely safety rules about how to wire a house or how to run plumbing that effect more than just the homeowner. And of course there are bigger laws about killing, stealing, etc.

There are laws governing the practice of medicine but largely, medical practice standards are determined by state boards and by the AMA. These are evidence based regulations that determine the best course of action/standard of care for setting a broken leg, treating a heart attack, treating cancer, or depression or a host of other things. But within any given practice, the practice determines how to follow the rules and regulations. There is more than one way to set a leg, treat a heart attack or cancer or depression and those change depending on the patient's age and medical history and a lot of other circumstances.

Parents in western society do put limitations on their children in order to protect the child (and their siblings and their own belongings) which change and hopefully decrease as the child becomes an adult. It's a step wise process and not nearly so cut and dried as many parents which it were.

The convergence of these come into play as children get older and have an ongoing health issue. A former neighbor had made decisions for her son regarding surgeries to correct multiple defects in his skeletal system, in order to lessen his pain and discomfort (long term) and to improve his mobility and long term health. But when he was 13 or so, he had a very serious surgery that required a lengthy period--an entire summer--in a body cast. She told me that that was the last time she'd make that decision for him: the surgery was painful, the recovery was lengthy and painful and it would not achieve a perfectly normal pair of legs for him--it would just provide an incremental improvement. She felt he deserved to have input into all future medical treatments. BTW, his father had abandoned the family because he could not handle the son's cerebral palsy (son was intellectually fine--extremely intelligent and with a beautiful singing voice. I understand that he grew up to make a living on radio). All sorts of decisions need to be made by parents on behalf of their children from birth forwards....to a point. At some point, generally in adolescence, parents must involve children in decisions regarding their health care. Teenagers can access treatment for STDs, pregnancy, and birth control without their parents' consent or knowledge, depending on their age and the state. Those decisions: to treat adolescents without parental permission or knowledge are made with the best interests of the patient in mind because it is not possible to convince teens that their parents need to be involved and in fact, parental involvement may not only preclude any treatment but unfortunately, sometimes, parents may become extremely punitive towards the child when they learn that their child has been sexually active (or sexually assaulted). Sometimes, unfortunately, the parent may be directly responsible for the sexual activity, pregnancy or STI.

Even seeking out treatment for something as simple common as depression by necessity involves cooperation of the child and hopefully the parent. It does not help if the parent insists the child has depression and the doctor agrees but the child insists they are not depressed. Or the other way around.

Legislators as a body, lack the medical, technical, or psychological knowledge to craft legislation and regulations that will adequately address the needs of trans children. Some very few might have the background, and having earned an MD does not guarantee that they do have sufficient background to craft such legislation. We cannot leave it to lawmakers and we cannot allow lawmakers to interfere in the appropriate treatment of patients of any age.

The best possible way to make the appropriate decisions for any patient, but most particularly for minor patients, who are experiencing gender dysmorphia or who identify as transgender is to consult and work with medical professionals with expertise in such fields, and including as medical professionals, psychologists and psychiatrists with training and expertise in this particular field. Parent/guardians, children and professionals in the field need to work together to determine the best path forward for each child.

I do have thoughts and feelings and concerns about performing surgeries on minors as well as puberty blockers, etc. for the purposes of gender affirmation. But--and this is really really really important: those are NOT my decisions to make. I don't know enough. I won't have to live with the outcomes of such decisions. Those decisions must be made by those who are most intimately aware, involved and affected: parents, minor child, medical professionals.

I think there are not perfect solutions at this time but that good solutions can be found, based on evidence and knowledge and not on the opinions of poorly informed people not intimately knowledgeable about individual cases.

 

[ZiprHead]

McDonalds bathrooms are almost always clean. That’s where I stop when traveling alone. Roadside rest stops are fine usually but combining a stop at McDonalds let me grab a quick sandwich or nuggets for kids when I traveled with them. It simply became a habit and what I’d be able to truthfully tell my father who still worried about whether I would be safe long after I married and had grown children of my own.

Yup, I prefer McDonald's bathrooms. As you said, you are pretty sure they are going to be clean.

The interstate rest stops in Michigan are also known for their cleanliness.

 

[Toni]

McDonalds bathrooms are almost always clean. That’s where I stop when traveling alone. Roadside rest stops are fine usually but combining a stop at McDonalds let me grab a quick sandwich or nuggets for kids when I traveled with them. It simply became a habit and what I’d be able to truthfully tell my father who still worried about whether I would be safe long after I married and had grown children of my own.

Yup, I prefer McDonald's bathrooms. As you said, you are pretty sure they are going to be clean.

The interstate rest stops in Michigan are also known for their cleanliness.

I think that most of them are these days. But back when I was a kid, that was not necessarily the case. In general, public bathrooms were nasty. I remember my mother holding my younger sisters suspended over a toilet seat so that they didn't actually touch it. Once we were too big for her to hold, we were expected to put down toilet paper.

Honestly, these days I am ok with stopping at a state rest stop. There are one or two that I have stopped at just because the view is beautiful. But my father's ethos looms large in my head: If I am traveling to get to a specific place, I do my best to minimize my stops so I will pick a McDonalds next to a preferred gas station/truck stop. And I eat in the car.