Mississippi Passes "More Dead Kids Please" bill. Texas responds w/ "hold my beer"

[Jarhyn]

By judging risk and doing everything we can to make sure we have not done something that will be used to gaslight us into taking the blame for the assault

You do not have carte blanche to do unto others as has been done unto you, just as those who do unto you are guilty of what they do.

The fact is that two wrongs do not make a right, and being suspicious of 100% of trans people is not warranted when there are zero cases of something happening is absolutely casting doubt in the wrong direction.

There is a higher chance you will be assaulted or harassed sexually by a woman in a bathroom than there is of you ever being sexually assaulted or harassed by a trans woman.

It's seriously "republican voter fraud" levels of paranoia, and worse, it's being used to justify fascism against an outgroup.

There is something wrong with anyone who doesn't realize the intent here is to out trans people, and to force them out of any space where they could possibly feel safe, using the same level of "fear of things that don't actually happen" that drives voter ID laws.

That's why this rhetoric was spun and that's the real effect it will have. It will not protect women, and it WILL lead to murders, rapes, and harassment of trans folks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

By judging risk and doing everything we can to make sure we have not done something that will be used to gaslight us into taking the blame for the assault

You do not have carte blanche to do unto others as has been done unto you, just as those who do unto you are guilty of what they do.

The fact is that two wrongs do not make a right, and being suspicious of 100% of trans people is not warranted when there are zero cases of something happening is absolutely casting doubt in the wrong direction.

Jebus! Suspicious of 100% of trans people? The point was that no one can easily tell a pre-surigical transgender woman from a male. That is the whole point. They can't be discriminating against someone they don't know who they are!

 

[Toni]

It is NOT reasonable to expect women to spend time examining a stranger's genitals in order to conduct a risk assessment.

No, it certainly isn't. What's unreasonable is for self absorbed people with an agenda demanding your acquiescence.

You women don't have to put up with that bullshit from men. You just don't. There's a nearly identical facility in the next room. Everyone has a place to pee or whatever. Expecting women to do a background check or whatever is ridiculous.

Also, nobody ever needs to show anybody else their genitalia in public outside a hospital. Gyms and public pools are completely optional. It's different when the issue is needing a pee or feminine hygiene issues or something. There's always a restroom stall with a door for such.
Tom

I understand that you mean to be supportive here but have you read the newspapers lately?

Women's rights to control her own body are under steady, serious attack by legislators and courts all over the country. If some people had their way, women would not even be allowed to travel across state lines to receive medical care they desperately want and need--even if not receiving that care will cause significant harm, or even death. And by women, I also mean little girls who are raped and become pregnant from the rape. Birth control is next and in fact, is also under attack by some. Granted, most of those somebodies could not identify various parts of a woman's external anatomy or her internal reproductive organs, much less understand ovulation, implantation, menstruation and menstrual cycles, etc. Don't stop them from having an opinion--and the power to enforce it on women.

I'm fairly confident that soon, women's ability to pursue higher education, hold positions of influence and power or not be raped by her own husband will be under attack.

Even if it does not pass, it strikes such fear in the hearts of women. You honestly have no idea.

That's exactly the kind of bullshit women are expected to put up with from (mostly) men.

 

[Toni]

By judging risk and doing everything we can to make sure we have not done something that will be used to gaslight us into taking the blame for the assault

You do not have carte blanche to do unto others as has been done unto you, just as those who do unto you are guilty of what they do.

The fact is that two wrongs do not make a right, and being suspicious of 100% of trans people is not warranted when there are zero cases of something happening is absolutely casting doubt in the wrong direction.

There is a higher chance you will be assaulted or harassed sexually by a woman in a bathroom than there is of you ever being sexually assaulted or harassed by a trans woman.

It's seriously "republican voter fraud" levels of paranoia, and worse, it's being used to justify fascism against an outgroup.

There is something wrong with anyone who doesn't realize the intent here is to out trans people, and to force them out of any space where they could possibly feel safe, using the same level of "fear of things that don't actually happen" that drives voter ID laws.

That's why this rhetoric was spun and that's the real effect it will have. It will not protect women, and it WILL lead to murders, rapes, and harassment of trans folks.

How is it right to strike fear in the people in the locker room?

I think most of us are well aware of the attacks on trans people. I think an awful lot of women have tremendous sympathy. We, also are under attack. If, by some weird fluke, that person with a penis in the women's locker room is capable of impregnating a woman and does so, she'll still be forced to carry to term her rapist's child. Even if the 'woman' is 12 years old.

 

[TomC]

I understand that you mean to be supportive here

Sorry for being a man.

I'll shut up now.

 

[Emily Lake]

As to making me less masculine, it absolutely does that, and if I wanted to be as feminine as you... Well, can't undo a cut, and I wouldn't want to push further in that direction.

What does that even mean?

It means that Jarhyn wants to gain access to all women's spaces, and to be given that access as a right so that he can transgress women's boundaries... But he doesn't want to actually have any additional surgeries, because he wants the option to go back to living as a man if he changes his mind.

 

[Emily Lake]

If Emily wants to claim trans women don't belong, she has to find a reason to actual exclude them.

Because they are MALE. They are NOT female. These spaces are separated on the basis of SEX, not the basis of BELIEF.

 

[Emily Lake]

Sure, but trans women are not "men". Trans women are women

Transwomen are males. They may view themselves as figuratively women, but they are not literal women.

and Emily wants to attack trans women just because they have penises.

This is false. I don't want to attack anyone. Nothing I have said supports your malicious framing.

 

[Emily Lake]

If the scientific definition is based onsperm, that's the scientific definition of "male".

The biological definition of sex is NOT based on sperm. This is your pet bastardization of it. Either because you are willfully trying to distort what I've said, or because you lack the ability to comprehend.

Emily wanted to use scientific definitions, so there we are, because if we want to use science to discuss reality, the only thing "locked" as necessary and sufficient to be a phenotype around sperm is sperm.

You don't get to make up additional bullshit in order to intentionally bastardize a definition used by evolutionary biologists just because you feel like it. Nobody has to accept your humpty-dumpty revision as anything other than the absolute silliness that it s.

Emily tossed them under the bus with her FEMALE = LARGE GAMETES bullshit.

False. Please stop propagating misinformation about my position.

 

[Emily Lake]

Where have I been defending people who produce steroids and sperm producers entering spaces?

You haven't. So far as I can tell, your entire argument is all special pleading so you can DEMAND that you personally are allowed into female spaces without the consent of those women. It seems to be a game wherein you manage to force women to bend to your will so you can see them naked and there's nothing those women can do about it.

 

[Emily Lake]

And there is a (zero) number of times I have argued for inclusion of people who are not willing to remove their testicles, except when these people are medically documented as being on blockers or HRT prior to the age where they can get surgical intervention.

My point is that if you want to complain about predators faking being trans women, it's easy enough to actually draw that line in the sand. Of course then you also have to accept that healthcare must cover such an intervention.

This is 100% impossible to implement. Unless maybe your plan is to have all of those men who meet your criteria sew pink triangles onto every article of clothing they wear? Is that your end game here?

And hey... what's to stop a man who does NOT meet your criteria from just saying he does? Or from falsifying documents? Or from sewing pink triangles onto his clothes?

That's the point. There is no way to enforce your pet policy that let's Jarhyn look at naked women against their consent.

 

[Emily Lake]

The fact here is that there are folks squawking very loudly about "pre-op trans people" in a way that glances entirely PAST the post-op folks.

I'm talking about post-op (post-orchiectomy) trans individuals, specifically, and for those too young to be considered for it, those who are document as being on blockers or full HRT.

The fact is that people are using pre-op adults and pre-blocker/pre-hrt for teens as a red herring to then pull a bait-and-switch to also capture and regulate against post-op adults and post-intervention teens.

It is inappropriate to say the least to "ya, but what about..." with regards to pre-ops rather than to start with "I accept post-op".

It's a pretty clear case that people who seek to castrate themselves to live as either eunuchs or women are not "faking it for access".

So either we can start by talking specifically people who ARE post-op and hammer out what we can agree on there, or you can all continue arguing on a foundation of bad faith, whether it's yours or someone else's, it's still bad fucking faith.

A castrated man is not a female. A man who has suppressed testosterone is not a female.

Women are not "non men". We're not "other". Man is not the default around which everything revolves. A man who is rejected by other men, or who voluntarily excludes himself, still is not a woman.

Because women are not "failed men".

Do you have any idea how insulting it is that you, in your arrogance, seem to believe that removing your own testicles makes you equivalent to a woman? Do you have any idea how patriarchally obnoxious it is that you think that men without testosterone ought to have the right to have a space free from men... but that women do NOT have that same fucking right?

 

[Emily Lake]

You also have not provided any way at all fir women in a locker room to distinguish between those who are women but still have a penis and those who are potentially a threat

Pretty sure a flat ballsack is a pretty big indication for adults, and medical documentation for the school of hormone blockers or HRT treatments for teens is much more than 'none at all'.

As I said, once we're done talking about how we CAN accept those folks, THEN we can discuss what to do or expect of the rest.

No.

You're demanding that women relinquish their boundaries and have their right to consent removed from them, all on the basis of a hypothetical. And in return for that tyrannical demand, you give us a wishy-washy promise that "oh, once you've had your rights removed, then we'll maybe give some thought to how much of your rights you get to have reinstated after the fact".

Fuck no.

 

[Emily Lake]

You really don't understand: The FIRST thing that is noticed is a penis. It will cause an immediate panic (or strong concern) reaction in many/most women. Also, for some men, the testicles are not as prominent/dangly/noticeable. Especially if you are being freaked out by a penis.

It is NOT reasonable to expect women to spend time examining a stranger's genitals in order to conduct a risk assessment.

It's not only not reasonable, it's downright insulting and perverse to expect that women need to examine a stranger's junk before we're "allowed" to decide whether or not Jarhyn approves of us not wanting them near us.

 

[Emily Lake]

Hey, get off Joe, willya. I know he's a decade or two past the age most of us would prefer to have a sitting president but he's still way better than any Republican since Eisenhower.

Honestly, the idea that he's going to run for re-election fills me with so much cringe. That Trump is still planning to run is even cringier.

 

[Toni]

Hey, get off Joe, willya. I know he's a decade or two past the age most of us would prefer to have a sitting president but he's still way better than any Republican since Eisenhower.

Honestly, the idea that he's going to run for re-election fills me with so much cringe. That Trump is still planning to run is even cringier.

Why?

I was not at all happy when he threw his hat into the ring in 2020. But he won—thank heavens—abd has been about 100 times better than I anticipated. Yes, I wish he were younger but he’s fairly accomplished —has managed much more than I hoped for-/and is pretty drama free.

 

[Emily Lake]

And my point is that panic reactions on seeing a penis are simply prejudice.

The panic reaction of a rabbit when it sees a wolf is totally just prejudice. Those bigoted rabbits need to be re-educated to not fear every wolf. They need to wait and see whether the wolf is actually going to harm them before they start running, otherwise they might hurt the wolf's feelings. Totally makes sense.

You would force eunuchs and a large population of people who are otherwise indistinguishable from women to shower, expose themselves, and be vulnerable around 'roided up males.

What planet are you on? Seriously, Eunuchs are not "indistinguishable from women". Most transwomen are not "indistinguishable from women".

WOMEN ARE NOT FAILED MEN.

Why the fuck do you think you should be entitled to declare that eunuchs and males who identify as women need to be protected from men.. but that women shouldn't have the right to protect themselves from men?

It makes me expect some disappointment in your inevitable negativity in the next question: what if they have obvious breasts?

People have been transitioning for a very long time and it's only the US that seems to have this major "Eek! A Penis!" reaction, and only very recently.

As it is, this discussion only even enters at "public shower facilities".

It does not speak to prisons, where the people involved are known to have no testicles or no testosterone.

It does not speak to bathrooms where people should not be exposing themselves in common spaces regardless of their genitals.

It does not speak to sports where again all people present are aware of the people they are around and their hormonal situation.

Maybe water parks and beaches? But this can be addressed by requiring individual shower facilities at such locations to be available.

What you are really saying is "if they look like they might have a penis", and it's absolutely apparent.

At that point the solution is to offer an ID card in lieu of "inspections" that would be demanded by Karens otherwise, or to say "if they aren't pulling their genitals out just step the fuck off".

Why are you so determined to employ the force of law to let you into the presence of naked women who don't want you there?

 

[Emily Lake]

There is a higher chance you will be assaulted or harassed sexually by a woman in a bathroom than there is of you ever being sexually assaulted or harassed by a trans woman.

Based on what? More of your wishes?

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Actual data from UK shows that transwomen have a higher rate of sexual offenses than men in general.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis). Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

 

[Jarhyn]

The panic reaction of a rabbit when it sees a wolf is totally just prejudice

"Trans women are WOLVES!!!!111"

No. You are the one acting like the wolf here.

WOMEN ARE NOT FAILED MEN

No, they aren't. You are the only one pushing the narrative that anyone thinks they are.

You have not even thus far been able to DEFINE "woman" or "man" in a way that actually references something which you cannot move a goalpost under.

Why are you so determined to employ the force of law to let you fully clothed trans women into the presence of naked women fully clothed females who don't want you them there

For the same reason I would use the force of law to compel a sunset town to tolerate the presence of a black person.

 

[Toni]

The panic reaction of a rabbit when it sees a wolf is totally just prejudice

"Trans women are WOLVES!!!!111"

No. You are the one acting like the wolf here.

WOMEN ARE NOT FAILED MEN

No, they aren't. You are the only one pushing the narrative that anyone thinks they are.

You have not even thus far been able to DEFINE "woman" or "man" in a way that actually references something which you cannot move a goalpost under.

Why are you so determined to employ the force of law to let you fully clothed trans women into the presence of naked women fully clothed females who don't want you them there

For the same reason I would use the force of law to compel a sunset town to tolerate the presence of a black person.

I know that you think that being concerned about naked strangers with penises in a women's only space is the same thing as racism but it isn't.