The Race For 2024

[Shadowy Man]

Seems to be a growing group of legal scholars pushing the 14 th amendment sec. 3.

Yep. It seems pretty damn clear to me:

"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

Sitting on his ass in the White House doing nothing but watching TV while a mob attacked the Capitol is at the very least giving comfort to the enemy.

Given that he set up and coordinated the rally that preceded the attack on the Capitol, urging them to march on it to stop the electoral count, I would say it goes beyond giving them aid and comfort. He was the one organizing the whole thing in the first place. I don't know whether the effort to get this adjudicated in a court has a chance of standing, and I really doubt that the current Supreme Court will let the Constitution be interpreted in a way that blocks Trump's candidacy. There are simply too many Trump supporters out there for politicians and judges to stand in the way of the political stampede towards the edge of the cliff.

I’m not saying he didn’t do more. I’m saying that this little bit is enough to disqualify him even if he didn’t do more.

True, but I was making the point that they'll need a much stronger case than "gave comfort" to make it look that way to the judges being asked to stick their necks out on an untested constitutional theory. Your point that he sat watching the events unfold and did nothing is better interpreted as minimally giving aid to the insurrection. The political rally beforehand, in which he urged the crowd to march on the Capitol--that was a participatory act that went beyond just giving aid. However, my guess is that SCOTUS would rule that he would have to be at least convicted of seditious conspiracy before he could be barred from taking office. Otherwise, he is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Yes. It’s going to be a hard sell and not likely to be sorted out prior for the next election.

 

[Tigers!]

Maybe some one could clarify a timing issue and the peiod in between the election of Biden and his taking over offically?
Biden was elected in Nov 2020. January 6th occured Jan. 6th 2021.
When did Biden offically take over as president?
Was Trump offically still president on 6/1/2021 or was he a 'caretaker' president? Is there some sort on interregnum between the election of president N-1 and the offical handover to President N?
What is the time period between the election and the offical ascension of the new president?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Maybe some one could clarify a timing issue and the peiod in between the election of Biden and his taking over offically?
Biden was elected in Nov 2020. January 6th occured Jan. 6th 2021.
When did Biden offically take over as president?
Was Trump offically still president on 6/1/2021 or was he a 'caretaker' president? Is there some sort on interregnum between the election of president N-1 and the offical handover to President N?
What is the time period between the election and the offical ascension of the new president?

Trump was President on Jan 6. The changeover occurs on Jan 20.

He was nominally in charge of defending the Capitol. He simply chose not to. His plan was to delay the certification of the votes and the attack advanced his plan.

 

[Copernicus]

Maybe some one could clarify a timing issue and the peiod in between the election of Biden and his taking over offically?
Biden was elected in Nov 2020. January 6th occured Jan. 6th 2021.
When did Biden offically take over as president?
Was Trump offically still president on 6/1/2021 or was he a 'caretaker' president? Is there some sort on interregnum between the election of president N-1 and the offical handover to President N?
What is the time period between the election and the offical ascension of the new president?

The whole point of Trump's plot to stop the counting of electoral votes was to create a situation in which the selection of the president would be thrown over to the House of Representatives, where each state delegation had one vote regardless of number of voters that the delegation represented. That's the prescription outlined in the Constitution, although it has never happened in the past. Given that the number of red states outnumber blue states, Trump was assuming that he would be chosen to remain as president. The way it would work is that Trump had arranged for some state level Republicans with close popular votes to submit alternative slates of fake Trump electors claiming to be true representatives of the state. These fake electors actually sent ballots to the federal government declaring themselves the truly elected representatives, and they are now being charged as co-conspirators. It didn't matter that the legality of their claim was doubtful. The idea was that there would be enough confusion to allow Republicans to call for the House to determine the outcome of the election. This was the coup plot concocted by Trump and his co-conspirators. Vice President Pence, following the advice of legal scholars, refused to go along with Trump's scheme, which is why Trump whipped the crowd up into chanting things like "Hang Mike Pence!" The mob were supposed to frighten Pence into joining the conspiracy or maybe even kill him if he didn't. Pence's removal from the process might have been enough to call for the House vote. At least, that was the theory that the conspirators were going with.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oddly enough, I think between 1/7/21 and 1/20/21, Pence was the acting President in all but name only, non-ceremoniously.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Maybe some one could clarify a timing issue and the peiod in between the election of Biden and his taking over offically?
Biden was elected in Nov 2020. January 6th occured Jan. 6th 2021.
When did Biden offically take over as president?
Was Trump offically still president on 6/1/2021 or was he a 'caretaker' president? Is there some sort on interregnum between the election of president N-1 and the offical handover to President N?
What is the time period between the election and the offical ascension of the new president?

Trump was President on Jan 6. The changeover occurs on Jan 20.

He was nominally in charge of defending the Capitol. He simply chose not to. His plan was to delay the certification of the votes and the attack advanced his plan.

And it simply fell to Sen. McConnell, who could have used that to propel a "constitutional crisis", and a Trump victory via the States. He didn't.

This is why Georgia is so important. Georgia was a reddish purple state that had a ton of GOP support. It was supposed to be a GOP firewall, though Trump took it way too far where even stalwart Republicans think Trump "be trippin'" with his scheme. Had Georgia announced the results were changed, that very likely could have been enough to put the entire election in "doubt". Meaning Congress would need to decide the matter. The GOP in the House were already in line with this plan. It was the GOP in the Senate that hit the brakes. But with a Georgia reversal, who knows what would have happened in the Senate.

This was nothing short of a Coup attempt.

 

[Elixir]

This was nothing short of a Coup attempt.

I'm sick of qualified statements about it.
THIS WAS A COUP ATTEMPT.

If it gets to trial before Trump and his allies are able to dismiss it and/or take over the government and install their autocracy, there will be no doubt about it. At least not in the minds of anyone who attends to the evidence.

 

[Copernicus]

This was nothing short of a Coup attempt.

I'm sick of qualified statements about it.
THIS WAS A COUP ATTEMPT.

If it gets to trial before Trump and his allies are able to dismiss it and/or take over the government and install their autocracy, there will be no doubt about it. At least not in the minds of anyone who attends to the evidence.

It was a coup attempt from the perspective of a lot of people, but there was a quasi-legal argument in support of it, because part of the plot involved using flaws in the Constitution to bring about the coup. The electoral college system and antiquated alternative method of choosing a President in the politically polarized House of Representatives was part of it. Many of the conspirators believed what they were told--that it was all legal and above-board. So Trump allies were easily able to recruit low level Republican apparatchiks to join those panels of fake electors, many not realizing that they were violating the law. Trump himself threatened Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, with possibly being in legal jeopardy for not helping him overturn the Georgia election results. I think that Trump himself probably believed that he had found a legal formula to keep himself in power. People have remarked before on how he would tell a lie that at first he understood to be a lie but that later became the truth in his own mind. He isn't necessarily insincere when he claims that he did everything right and broke no laws.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This was nothing short of a Coup attempt.

I'm sick of qualified statements about it.
THIS WAS A COUP ATTEMPT.

If it gets to trial before Trump and his allies are able to dismiss it and/or take over the government and install their autocracy, there will be no doubt about it. At least not in the minds of anyone who attends to the evidence.

It was a coup attempt from the perspective of a lot of people, but there was a quasi-legal argument in support of it, because part of the plot involved using flaws in the Constitution to bring about the coup. The electoral college system and antiquated alternative method of choosing a President in the politically polarized House of Representatives was part of it. Many of the conspirators believed what they were told--that it was all legal and above-board.

Bullshit. They all knew it was illegal. If it worked, they wouldn't have gotten caught. This was just their last option as it was the mother of all hail mary's. It all hung on swinging Georgia with corrupt politicians... who apparently didn't exist in real life and refused to go along with it... to the point that they had their attorneys in on the call from Trump! A swing of Georgia would have provided cover to the GOP in the Senate (or maybe just the VP was needed to create a standstill). We'll never know if the GOP in the Senate (or VP) would have supported the theft and tried to rig the system had Georgia fallen in line. Certainly if Georgia had fallen in line, the crowds would have been more violent.

So Trump allies were easily able to recruit low level Republican apparatchiks to join those panels of fake electors, many not realizing that they were violating the law. Trump himself threatened Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, with possibly being in legal jeopardy for not helping him overturn the Georgia election results. I think that Trump himself probably believed that he had found a legal formula to keep himself in power. People have remarked before on how he would tell a lie that at first he understood to be a lie but that later became the truth in his own mind. He isn't necessarily insincere when he claims that he did everything right and broke no laws.

Except the 1/6 commission did a masterful job of proving that Trump knew what the truth was, he decided to reshape it. His willingness to believe a lie is not evidence that he didn't know the truth.

 

[Elixir]

there was a quasi-legal argument in support of it, because part of the plot involved using flaws in the Constitution to bring about the coup

Those are only "flaws" if the ongoing coup attempt eventually succeeds. Obviously it's going to be up to the judiciary to further or quash it, which is plenty scary. There is no way out of this shit, really. No matter what happens electorally judicially or legislatively, either 30 million violent brainwashed cultists are going to go apeshit and wreak as much havoc as they can with their considerable collective armaments, or those same cultists will be in charge, just like the Taliban.

 

[Copernicus]

This was nothing short of a Coup attempt.

I'm sick of qualified statements about it.
THIS WAS A COUP ATTEMPT.

If it gets to trial before Trump and his allies are able to dismiss it and/or take over the government and install their autocracy, there will be no doubt about it. At least not in the minds of anyone who attends to the evidence.

It was a coup attempt from the perspective of a lot of people, but there was a quasi-legal argument in support of it, because part of the plot involved using flaws in the Constitution to bring about the coup. The electoral college system and antiquated alternative method of choosing a President in the politically polarized House of Representatives was part of it. Many of the conspirators believed what they were told--that it was all legal and above-board.

Bullshit. They all knew it was illegal. If it worked, they wouldn't have gotten caught. This was just their last option as it was the mother of all hail mary's. It all hung on swinging Georgia with corrupt politicians... who apparently didn't exist in real life and refused to go along with it... to the point that they had their attorneys in on the call from Trump! A swing of Georgia would have provided cover to the GOP in the Senate (or maybe just the VP was needed to create a standstill). We'll never know if the GOP in the Senate (or VP) would have supported the theft and tried to rig the system had Georgia fallen in line. Certainly if Georgia had fallen in line, the crowds would have been more violent.

I don't agree that they all knew it was illegal. I think that many believed that the election had been stolen, because that's what they wanted to believe. And they saw this "alternative" elector scheme as legal in the sense that the state legislature and/or Congress could deem their slate as constitutionally valid, especially if election fraud were proven. One of the fake elector slates even stipulated that they were the "true" electors only if a court ruled that they were--an escape clause to avoid even a hint of doing something illegal.

So Trump allies were easily able to recruit low level Republican apparatchiks to join those panels of fake electors, many not realizing that they were violating the law. Trump himself threatened Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, with possibly being in legal jeopardy for not helping him overturn the Georgia election results. I think that Trump himself probably believed that he had found a legal formula to keep himself in power. People have remarked before on how he would tell a lie that at first he understood to be a lie but that later became the truth in his own mind. He isn't necessarily insincere when he claims that he did everything right and broke no laws.

Except the 1/6 commission did a masterful job of proving that Trump knew what the truth was, he decided to reshape it. His willingness to believe a lie is not evidence that he didn't know the truth.

That's actually what I just wrote in the passage you are replying to. Trump had a pattern of behavior in which he would tell a lie and then come to actually believe his own lie. This is a point that Mary L Trump, his niece and a psychologist, has taken pains to explain to people in her books and in interviews. Donald Trump, her uncle, doesn't always distinguish between fantasy and reality. He really could be considered mentally ill in that sense. He'll knowingly spout a falsehood on one day, and then he'll actually come to believe that that is the truth. He knew he lost the election, but now he looks back on it and thinks that he actually won it. He simply cannot believe that he failed or that a majority of people had actually voted against him. There has to be some way to explain how he really won both the popular vote and the electoral count. If he repeats a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.

there was a quasi-legal argument in support of it, because part of the plot involved using flaws in the Constitution to bring about the coup

Those are only "flaws" if the ongoing coup attempt eventually succeeds. Obviously it's going to be up to the judiciary to further or quash it, which is plenty scary. There is no way out of this shit, really. No matter what happens electorally judicially or legislatively, either 30 million violent brainwashed cultists are going to go apeshit and wreak as much havoc as they can with their considerable collective armaments, or those same cultists will be in charge, just like the Taliban.

They are flaws, if they can be used to overthrow a legitimately elected government, and they are flaws if they subvert the democratic process. The idea was to create a Constitution for a representative democracy, but the 18th century framers of the document didn't have a lot of experience in how to make such a government work. They also had to get free states and slave states to agree to form a federal union, so the compromises built into the document made sense back then but stand as anachronisms in the modern era. Unfortunately, the Constitution has come to be regarded as some kind of sacred document whose holy writ should remain unsullied by changes that might seek to repair those flaws. Hence, we have a lot of legalistic invention surrounding the interpretation of the Second Amendment, which was a measure designed to provide for the common defense against enemies rather than home breakins. Trump was just trying to apply the same twisted legalistic interpretation of the text to preserve his grip on power.

 

[Toni]

My personal belief is that Trump knows well and good that he lost and that his schemes to retain power, among other schemes, were not legal. He may have believed that there was a way or ways to bend the law enough to allow him to continue his grift—I mean, presidency. But that’s all self delusion, albeit delusion supported by co-conspirators of various motivations. And at the heart of it, Trump knows the truth, however inconvenient it is.

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caught out in his massive fraudulent schemes.

I do think that Trump has multiple mental illnesses and is in some degree of intellectual decline. That doesn’t mean that he does not have the capacity to understand what he has done is wrong. He’s just choosing not to accept that reality. Or choosing to assert that reality is what he wants it to be. But it’s a choice and he does have the mental capacity to choose better.

 

[Elixir]

My personal belief is that Trump knows well and good that he lost and that his schemes to retain power, among other schemes, were not legal. He may have believed that there was a way or ways to bend the law enough to allow him to continue his grift—I mean, presidency. But that’s all self delusion, albeit delusion supported by co-conspirators of various motivations. And at the heart of it, Trump knows the truth, however inconvenient it is.

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caught out in his massive fraudulent schemes.

I do think that Trump has multiple mental illnesses and is in some degree of intellectual decline. That doesn’t mean that he does not have the capacity to understand what he has done is wrong. He’s just choosing not to accept that reality. Or choosing to assert that reality is what he wants it to be. But it’s a choice and he does have the mental capacity to choose better.

I hold all of these things to be self evident …

 

[TomC]

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caugh

When he came down that escalator, years ago, bet he didn't think it would lead to being indicted by a black chick in Fulton County, GA. He thought he could lie about anything.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

My personal belief is that Trump knows well and good that he lost and that his schemes to retain power, among other schemes, were not legal. He may have believed that there was a way or ways to bend the law enough to allow him to continue his grift—I mean, presidency. But that’s all self delusion, albeit delusion supported by co-conspirators of various motivations. And at the heart of it, Trump knows the truth, however inconvenient it is.

I was actually arguing that he is delusional. Normal people don't believe their own lies. When one talks about the human mind, I don't think we can claim that it always operates rationally or resolves all inconsistencies. Even normal people hold fundamentally contradictory beliefs. Trump, however, does not behave like a normal person. I think that there is a part of him that knows he is lying and another part that wishes the lie to be the truth and a struggle over which part gets to be in control.

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caught out in his massive fraudulent schemes.

I do think that Trump has multiple mental illnesses and is in some degree of intellectual decline. That doesn’t mean that he does not have the capacity to understand what he has done is wrong. He’s just choosing not to accept that reality. Or choosing to assert that reality is what he wants it to be. But it’s a choice and he does have the mental capacity to choose better.

I'm not sure that there is a lot of evidence to support that last claim. Choice tends to be determined by whichever need dominates all the others that compete with it. It may be that Trump's niece is right and that he really isn't really capable of admitting his own fallibility, and acknowledging the truth, even to himself, would simply be intolerable to him.

 

[Elixir]

Normal people don't believe their own lies.

When one’s life depends on it, a trained showman can put on a convincing performance. And that’s what you’re seeing.

 

[Copernicus]

Normal people don't believe their own lies.

When one’s life depends on it, a trained showman can put on a convincing performance. And that’s what you’re seeing.

Being a trained showman and being delusional are not mutually incompatible things. He certainly is a trained showman, but I don't think either of us knows what really goes on inside his head. My opinion of him is that he is less rational and less in control than you seem to think he is. Given his erratic behavior in the past, that strikes me as the more reasonable interpretation.

 

[Elixir]

Normal people don't believe their own lies.

When one’s life depends on it, a trained showman can put on a convincing performance. And that’s what you’re seeing.

Being a trained showman and being delusional are not mutually incompatible things. He certainly is a trained showman, but I don't think either of us knows what really goes on inside his head.

True enough. There are tells though, beyond the fact that he lets slip that he knows, for instance, that he lost the election. And MANY other things. The bungling coverup attempts reflect consciousness of guilt at the very least.

My opinion of him is that he is less rational and less in control than you seem to think he is.

Hmmm That would be very irrational and out of control indeed …

Given his erratic behavior in the past, that strikes me as the more reasonable interpretation.

I think his behavior has been a model of consistency. Never deviates from the path of least resistance to his most immediate selfish purpose. The illusion of erratic behavior emerges from the fact that he is always responding to the moment, so his aim is in constant flux.
That’s my take and I’m sticking to it!

 

[Toni]

My personal belief is that Trump knows well and good that he lost and that his schemes to retain power, among other schemes, were not legal. He may have believed that there was a way or ways to bend the law enough to allow him to continue his grift—I mean, presidency. But that’s all self delusion, albeit delusion supported by co-conspirators of various motivations. And at the heart of it, Trump knows the truth, however inconvenient it is.

I was actually arguing that he is delusional. Normal people don't believe their own lies. When one talks about the human mind, I don't think we can claim that it always operates rationally or resolves all inconsistencies. Even normal people hold fundamentally contradictory beliefs. Trump, however, does not behave like a normal person. I think that there is a part of him that knows he is lying and another part that wishes the lie to be the truth and a struggle over which part gets to be in control.

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caught out in his massive fraudulent schemes.

I do think that Trump has multiple mental illnesses and is in some degree of intellectual decline. That doesn’t mean that he does not have the capacity to understand what he has done is wrong. He’s just choosing not to accept that reality. Or choosing to assert that reality is what he wants it to be. But it’s a choice and he does have the mental capacity to choose better.

I'm not sure that there is a lot of evidence to support that last claim. Choice tends to be determined by whichever need dominates all the others that compete with it. It may be that Trump's niece is right and that he really isn't really capable of admitting his own fallibility, and acknowledging the truth, even to himself, would simply be intolerable to him.

I think that he is less delusional than you do. I think he chooses to believe the delusions. Of course, we all do that to some degree but he is doing it to an extent and under circumstances that put the entire world in danger.

I think that Mary Trump has a lot to say re: her uncle that is valuable and adds context. I feel some pity for the gross negligence that comprised his childhood. But he’s been an adult for a very long time. People with far greater delusions and far less a steady grasp on reality have been judged fit to stand trial, have been convicted and are serving their sentences in general population ( not that I think that’s the right thing) and most of them presented a far lesser degree of danger to the general public/world at large.

 

[Toni]

I think that he may be struggling with the reality that this time, things are not going to go his way and that he’s being caugh

When he came down that escalator, years ago, bet he didn't think it would lead to being indicted by a black chick in Fulton County, GA. He thought he could lie about anything.
Tom

He can and does lie about anything and everything. He just never thought he’d be held accountable. He needs to be proven wrong. On every single count on every single indictment.