Jesus Christ, Made In Our Likeness

[Learner]

Yep.
And people typically overlook the fact that the Israelites tried to make peace with their Canaanite enemies first and those overtures were rejected.

Cite?

For example consider Exodus 23:22-28. No mercy is shown to the Amorites et al. I don't see where the Amorites rejected any peace overture. Instead I thought the Amorites needed to be overthrown simply because they occupied land which God had given to Abraham.

Numbers 20:14/17/18

Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom, saying...
“Now we are here at Kadesh, a town on the edge of your territory. Please let us pass through your country. We will not go through any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway and not turn to the right or to the left until we have passed through your territory.”

But Edom answered:
“You may not pass through here; if you try, we will march out and attack you with the sword

Then you have the unprovoked pre-emptive attack by the Canaanite king of Arad, in the Negev, when he heard that Israel was coming. (Numbers 21:1)

Then you have...

Numbers 21:21-23
Israel sent messengers to say to Sihon king of the Amorites:

"Let us pass through your country. We will not turn aside into any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway until we have passed through your territory.”

But Sihon would not let Israel pass through his territory. He mustered his entire army and marched out into the wilderness against Israel. When he reached Jahaz, he fought with Israel.

Color me cynical if you must,
But listening to a modern translation of an ancient people's explanation for why they were so genocidal doesn't really have much credibility to me.
Tom

In ancient times, it was universally the norm to rule a nation by shedding blood, warring with other nations, killing and sacrificing humans to their gods.

Tom, the Israelites weren't at war with nations that consisted of "unarmed peace-loving peasants who's only skills for battle was planting seeds and growing crops', which seems to be the undertone language of some of the atheists argument.

As Lion points out, the Israelites sent peaceful envoys. Not all nations wanted peace with them.

 

[Swammerdami]

What is the relationship between the earliest Israelites (or "Hebrews") and the people known throughout the Levant as Habiru or 'Apiru ?

 

[bilby]

In ancient times, it was universally the norm to rule a nation by shedding blood, warring with other nations, killing and sacrificing humans to their gods.

Yeah. It still is in many places. It was (and is) still morally wrong, though.

You Christians, with your moral relativism. It's almost as though you don't genuinely believe that morality is absolute at all.

 

[DBT]

Ten commandments, Thou shalt Not Kill.
Now it is off to Canaan to kill all the Canaanites.
As God commanded.

And would you give a similar spin to ' thou shalt not kill' to also mean we shouldn't kill cows to make burgers from cows?

Asking doctrinaire Christians to explain this is always interesting.

Then it should be interesting to you to know that to Christians, this particular verse 'thou shalt not kill'' was in context to murder.

Murder was ordered and done.

It is unfortunate you aren't able to differentiate the context between defending yourself as a nation and murder in times of war, especially when its always a reaction to defend yourself from the very first actions initiated against the Israelites. If you understand it now, pass it on to Jaryn...cheers.

It's unfortunate for you that bible verse does not support your claim. Where wholesale slaughter is ordered, including women and children.

Rather than self defense, this describes a conquest, a brutal acquisition of land.

 

[DBT]

Yep.
And people typically overlook the fact that the Israelites tried to make peace with their Canaanite enemies first and those overtures were rejected.

Wanting their land may have had something to do with it.

 

[Learner]

In ancient times, it was universally the norm to rule a nation by shedding blood, warring with other nations, killing and sacrificing humans to their gods.

Yeah. It still is in many places. It was (and is) still morally wrong, though.

You Christians, with your moral relativism. It's almost as though you don't genuinely believe that morality is absolute at all.

Still happens today indeed. And If defending yourself and your family had no option but to neccisitate certain harsh measures from serious violence, then call it as you will. Morally wrong.

 

[Learner]

Ten commandments, Thou shalt Not Kill.
Now it is off to Canaan to kill all the Canaanites.
As God commanded.

And would you give a similar spin to ' thou shalt not kill' to also mean we shouldn't kill cows to make burgers from cows?

Asking doctrinaire Christians to explain this is always interesting.

Then it should be interesting to you to know that to Christians, this particular verse 'thou shalt not kill'' was in context to murder.

Murder was ordered and done.

It is unfortunate you aren't able to differentiate the context between defending yourself as a nation and murder in times of war, especially when its always a reaction to defend yourself from the very first actions initiated against the Israelites. If you understand it now, pass it on to Jaryn...cheers.

It's unfortunate for you that bible verse does not support your claim. Where wholesale slaughter is ordered, including women and children.

Rather than self defense, this describes a conquest, a brutal acquisition of land.

Judgement was on an entire nation. Further consistent attacks from these nations in the future (a God would see) is stopped there.

 

[bilby]

In ancient times, it was universally the norm to rule a nation by shedding blood, warring with other nations, killing and sacrificing humans to their gods.

Yeah. It still is in many places. It was (and is) still morally wrong, though.

You Christians, with your moral relativism. It's almost as though you don't genuinely believe that morality is absolute at all.

Still happens today indeed. And If defending yourself and your family had no option but to neccisitate certain harsh measures from serious violence, then call it as you will. Morally wrong.

Yeah, still not seeing how killing civillian non-combatants, including children, is a necessary part of "defending yourself and your family", or can be considered (by sane people) anything other than "Morally wrong".

But congratulations on passing your loyalty test, and impressing your masters with your willingness to perform unspeakably vile acts, if asked to do so.

 

[bilby]

Judgement was on an entire nation.

Collective punishment is a war crime.

For good reasons.

Judgement "on an entire nation" is monstrous, immoral, and evil.

No matter who does it.

 

[bilby]

Further consistent attacks from these nations in the future (a God would see) is stopped there.

"Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean,
But that couldn't happen again;
We taught them a lesson, in 1918,
And they've hardly bothered us since then..."

- Tom Lehrer

 

[Learner]

Further consistent attacks from these nations in the future (a God would see) is stopped there.

"Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean,
But that couldn't happen again;
We taught them a lesson, in 1918,
And they've hardly bothered us since then..."

- Tom Lehrer

In the times of the Christianity age, peace is universally desired (but a few individual rulers). Not quite the same psyche back then compared to those harsh times of normalities as described in Genesis. Two eras, two books of ages, the before and after 'love your enemies' doctrine of Christianity.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

What is the relationship between the earliest Israelites (or "Hebrews") and the people known throughout the Levant as Habiru or 'Apiru ?

None. 'Apiru is Akkadian and that term long predates Israelites. It is a term for a class of people, not a tribe of people. Not a national peoples. The term lasted for centuries and became a loan word in many ancient cultures.

 

[Elixir]

All this god stuff serves well to distract people from the trivial nature of our existence.

 

[Elixir]

Oh, and happy Easter!

 

[Politesse]

Further consistent attacks from these nations in the future (a God would see) is stopped there.

"Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean,
But that couldn't happen again;
We taught them a lesson, in 1918,
And they've hardly bothered us since then..."

- Tom Lehrer

In the times of the Christianity age, peace is universally desired (but a few individual rulers). Not quite the same psyche back then compared to those harsh times of normalities as described in Genesis. Two eras, two books of ages, the before and after 'love your enemies' doctrine of Christianity.

And, uh, Israel's genocidal campaigns against their neighbors... how did those work out for them, again?

When you try to achieve security and peace through merciless violence, you eventually learn the truth of the maxim that there's always a bigger fish.

 

[Swammerdami]

There are plenty of scholars who consider Hebrew and Habiru to be cognates, as much circumstantial evidence implies. "Hebrew" probably began as an exonym: In Genesis it is used when quoting Egyptians. Hebrews refer to themselves in Genesis as "Children of Israel" or such.

What is the relationship between the earliest Israelites (or "Hebrews") and the people known throughout the Levant as Habiru or 'Apiru ?

None. 'Apiru is Akkadian and that term long predates Israelites. It is a term for a class of people, not a tribe of people. Not a national peoples. The term lasted for centuries and became a loan word in many ancient cultures.

Interesting. It sounds like you know something about the DATES of those terms. Care to share? And which "class of people" were the 'Apiru? BTW it is certainly plausible that a class or tribe might have TWO names and that one of those names to PREDATE the other. "Yankee", for example, is an ethnonym of uncertain origin which predates the U.S.A.

Above we're told that the early Israelites were peace-loving:

Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom, saying...
“Now we are here at Kadesh, a town on the edge of your territory. Please let us pass through your country. We will not go through any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway and not turn to the right or to the left until we have passed through your territory.”

Was this before they called themselves Israelites? Back when the Egyptians called them Hebrew/Habiru?

By the way, it is not unusual for the name of a class of people to transform and become the name of a "tribe," or vice versa.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yep.
And people typically overlook the fact that the Israelites tried to make peace with their Canaanite enemies first and those overtures were rejected.

Cite?

For example consider Exodus 23:22-28. No mercy is shown to the Amorites et al. I don't see where the Amorites rejected any peace overture. Instead I thought the Amorites needed to be overthrown simply because they occupied land which God had given to Abraham.

Numbers 20:14/17/18

Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom, saying...
“Now we are here at Kadesh, a town on the edge of your territory. Please let us pass through your country. We will not go through any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway and not turn to the right or to the left until we have passed through your territory.”

But Edom answered:
“You may not pass through here; if you try, we will march out and attack you with the sword

Then you have the unprovoked pre-emptive attack by the Canaanite king of Arad, in the Negev, when he heard that Israel was coming. (Numbers 21:1)

Then you have...

Numbers 21:21-23
Israel sent messengers to say to Sihon king of the Amorites:

"Let us pass through your country. We will not turn aside into any field or vineyard, or drink water from any well. We will travel along the King’s Highway until we have passed through your territory.”

But Sihon would not let Israel pass through his territory. He mustered his entire army and marched out into the wilderness against Israel. When he reached Jahaz, he fought with Israel.

Color me cynical if you must,
But listening to a modern translation of an ancient people's explanation for why they were so genocidal doesn't really have much credibility to me.
Tom

To be fair it sounds like a part of Sid Meyer's Civilization: motherfuckers saw an army of people on their borders, saying "oh, we just want to travel through to attack whoever else over there (not to mention you could be at peace with those guys, and letting an army through to attack an ally would put YOU in the war, too)".

It doesn't sound like the armies sent to fuck off the Israelites really did much damage, even.

Like, they paint themselves as a victim here but countries already in this e places have every good reason to not let refugee trains pass through. I mean, shit, what happens when they reach your neighbors and now your neighbors are pissed that you just volunteered their border to receive the refugees?!?

As a leader of such a nation, I would have to meet with my neighbors, have summit, negotiate where that nomad group was going, and they would have to be willing to tolerate living on land nobody else wants, how we would escort them to keep them honest, even as they would have complained all the way that you were starving them out.

It would have been more honest to say "we are a displaced people, and we intend on finding land plentiful enough to support both us and whoever was there, but we do intend to build something where we go, settle among a prosperous land and people, and have a land we can call ."

It wouldn't have made them any friends, I reckon, but it would have been more honest than saying "you didn't let us do an immensely rude politically untenable thing so we genocide you". Like seriously, WTF is that?

How about "ask for summit and parlay passage or incorporation into the region, and share power as a combined people".

 

[steve_bank]

The RCC church I went to as a kid had a large white blonde haired blue eyed Jesus on a cross hanging over the alter.

I remember gong into a black neighbor's house and seeing a painting of a block Jesus. I was too young to see the significance.


On Power Of Myth Campbell pointed out images of Buddha in Asia vary with a cultures physical characteristics.

A virgin Mary? Golly gee Joseph I swear I did bot cheat, god did it. If I'm liein' I'm diein' homey.

I read somewhere that in the day women who lived apart from the men could be called virgins symbolically even if they were married and had kids or something like that.



Another possible case of a murky literal interpretation to anther language without a cultural context.

 

[Jarhyn]

The RCC church I went to as a kid had a large white blonde haired blue eyed Jesus on a cross hanging over the alter.

I remember gong into a black neighbor's house and seeing a painting of a block Jesus. I was too young to see the significance.


On Power Of Myth Campbell pointed out images of Buddha in Asia vary with a cultures physical characteristics.

A virgin Mary? Golly gee Joseph I swear I did bot cheat, god did it. If I'm liein' I'm diein' homey.

I read somewhere that in the day women who lived apart from the men could be called virgins symbolically even if they were married and had kids or something like that.



Another possible case of a murky literal interpretation to anther language without a cultural context.

Indeed.

So, my mother was named Mary too, btw, and she did live apart from men.

Sorry though, Steve, I'm passing you up for Judas, but I do have an opening for "doubting Thomas" still.

Oh! I know, we could all get together and have a big party with lots of flavor-aid party for the eclipse/comet thing!

 

[steve_bank]

Further consistent attacks from these nations in the future (a God would see) is stopped there.

"Once all the Germans were warlike, and mean,
But that couldn't happen again;
We taught them a lesson, in 1918,
And they've hardly bothered us since then..."

- Tom Lehrer

In the times of the Christianity age, peace is universally desired (but a few individual rulers). Not quite the same psyche back then compared to those harsh times of normalities as described in Genesis. Two eras, two books of ages, the before and after 'love your enemies' doctrine of Christianity.

And how is that manifested throughout the history of Christianity from then to now? There was violence between Christian sects from the start.

Sorry Learner, no sale. You are making apologetics. Explaining away inconsistencies by creative interpretation and speculation.


In te political context a Jewish moralist speaking to fellow Jews would have been saying make peace with Romans , not undersql loving all your adversaries.


'Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to god what is god's'. Combined with love your enemies, aka the hated Romans.