Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[TomC]

Israel would run out of weapons and ammunition in short order, and be invaded and conquered by her Islamic neighbours.

I think you're underestimating Israeli abilities to make or acquire weapons.

People seem to refuse to grasp that the Israelis are fighting against an implacable existential threat.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

The biases against the region's only multi-ethnic secular democracy you share with your student protesters compatriots looks positively anti-Semitic.

I have a hard time considering Israel to be a secular democracy when the ultra ultra-orthodox do not have to enlist in the IDF like everyone else and get free state funded and separate religious education that no one else gets. The more secular citizens of Israel are getting pretty pissed off about that particular privilege that one religious sect gets and others don't.

 

[TomC]

The biases against the region's only multi-ethnic secular democracy you share with your student protesters compatriots looks positively anti-Semitic.

I have a hard time considering Israel to be a secular democracy when the ultra ultra-orthodox do not have to enlist in the IDF like everyone else and get free state funded and separate religious education that no one else gets. The more secular citizens of Israel are getting pretty pissed off about that particular privilege that one religious sect gets and others don't.

I avoid focusing on small issues and try to look at the bigger picture.

Compare the situation concerning secularism, democracy, and multi-ethnicity in Israel to that of their neighbors. Then compare the peace and prosperity index.

Expecting Israel to fight their neighbors with one hand tied behind their back looks very anti-Semitic to me because of the long term consequences for both Israel and the Palestinians.
Tom

 

[bilby]

Israel would run out of weapons and ammunition in short order, and be invaded and conquered by her Islamic neighbours.

I think you're underestimating Israeli abilities to make or acquire weapons.

I think you are massively overestimating those abilities. Without US assistance, Israel simply doesn't have the resources to make, nor the financial capability to buy, sufficient weapons for her own defence - even before the IDF are ordered to squander vast amounts of ammunition in the needless and counterproductive destruction of Gaza.

People seem to refuse to grasp that the Israelis are fighting against an implacable existential threat.
Tom

Yeah, that must be why I said:

Israel is under constant existential threat from her Islamic neighbours

 

[laughing dog]

That is not the ratio they have targeted, let alone executed. Israel herself claims to have killed two civilians for every "terrorist", and the actual ratio is of course almost certainly worse. Though impossible to estimate with any certainty.

Emphasis on "impossible to estimate with any certainty".
However, I have no trouble arguing that Israel hasn't targeted, much less executed any innocent civilians. But there's no way for Israel to distinguish between innocent civilians, human shields, civilian collaborators with Hamas, and active militants and leaders.

But we are rather feeding the derail.
Tom

A derail it may be. But it was also disinformation, and I thought it should be corrected. If not even Israel is claiming to kill more combatants than civilians, to say that they have done is a straightforward lie. It's not the first time I've shared these links, and I will continue to do so whenever false claims are being made about civilian deaths in Palestine.

The biases against the region's only multi-ethnic secular democracy you share with your student protesters compatriots looks positively anti-Semitic.

I don't use the word anti-Semitic lightly, generally I despise it. Palestinians are nearly as semitic as the Jews. I think that the outcome of your opinions and proposals will continue the violence that causes huge destruction for generations. For Semitic people as a whole.
Tom

The standard of "the outcome of your opinions and proposals will continue the violence that causes huge destruction for generations" means your opinion and proposals are also anti-semitic. In fact, just about any opinion or proposal on this issue meets that standard. Which makes your standard rather pointless in my view.

 

[bilby]

Expecting Israel to fight their neighbors with one hand tied behind their back

I expect Israel to defend herself against exidtential threats from neighbours, and am happy to support her in doing so with both hands.

I don't expect her to fight a hugely disproportionate war against a lightly armed enclave that poses only a minor threat.

And I don't appreciate her leaders attempting to bully the US, and the rest of the world, into accepting the lie that the latter is indistinguishable from the former.

 

[crazyfingers]

The biases against the region's only multi-ethnic secular democracy you share with your student protesters compatriots looks positively anti-Semitic.

I have a hard time considering Israel to be a secular democracy when the ultra ultra-orthodox do not have to enlist in the IDF like everyone else and get free state funded and separate religious education that no one else gets. The more secular citizens of Israel are getting pretty pissed off about that particular privilege that one religious sect gets and others don't.

I avoid focusing on small issues and try to look at the bigger picture.

Compare the situation concerning secularism, democracy, and multi-ethnicity in Israel to that of their neighbors. Then compare the peace and prosperity index.

Expecting Israel to fight their neighbors with one hand tied behind their back looks very anti-Semitic to me because of the long term consequences for both Israel and the Palestinians.
Tom

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

 

[TomC]

The standard of "the outcome of your opinions and proposals will continue the violence that causes huge destruction for generations" means your opinion and proposals are also anti-semitic. In fact, just about any opinion or proposal on this issue meets that standard

Here's a proposal.

The UN, the international community, and the Palestinians launch a concerted effort to root out and eliminate the violent and corrupt Palestinian leadership. Don't involve Israel.

It's not a feasible proposal, because not enough people want peace. The ongoing conflict has too much value to the powerful.
Tom

 

[TomC]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

Especially if you consider the last century plus of history.

Tom

 

[Copernicus]

Students at Brown Just Secured a Vote on Divestment. What Happens Next?

On April 30, protesters disbanded their encampment when the university pledged to vote on divestment from companies affiliated with Israel. This shows a different way of doing things.

www.thenation.com

I think that the contrast between Columbia University's handling of their protest and Brown's is very revealing. IMO, every university facing these protests should use Brown as a model for deconflicting the breakdown in civil discourse among students on campus. Columbia reacted in the same way that it did in 1968--turning the confrontation into an inevitable campus riot. Back then, I was a student at Ohio State, where we experienced something very similar, especially after tensions rose to the point where a unit of the Ohio National Guard at Kent State fired on and killed several students. We ended up with our own riots, because the Columbus police were untrained and inept at crowd control even before the Kent State shootings. The governor called out national guard troops to occupy the campuses in an effort to quell demonstrations, but that just made them worse. What was needed was a dialog and an outlet for the protesters to vent their anger without simply trying to suppress it. A university hosts a lot of people in various stages of maturity, and what happens on campus should become an opportunity for them to learn how to behave in a mature manner under stress, even if they can't change national policy or force the university to meet all of their demands.

Watching news events of the police events at Hamilton Hall on Columbia's campus was a strange mixture of sadness and nostalgia for me. My first real job was as an assistant professor of linguistics at Columbia in the 1970s, not long after the Vietnam protests had ended. Some of the classes I taught were in Hamilton Hall, and I remember the campus well from years of working there. I did appreciate the fact that the NYPD units were well-trained and that the protesters were removed with a minimum of injury. It could have turned out much worse, especially if they had tried to enter the building during the day. However, this action is unlikely to defuse the anger and frustration of those caught up in the protests. They will look for ways to disrupt and get back at the administration, which is now faced with having to suspend and expel students that they should have worked with earlier. Unfortunately, the administration was really caught between the protesters and the board of trustees, many of whose members may have been unable to tolerate being seen as open to negotiating with people over financial divestments. Columbia University is a profit-making business, and that often doesn't fit well with the idea of academic freedom. Profit is a strong incentive for those running the Columbia Corporation made up of Barnard, Columbia, and Teachers College. I suspect they panicked over the first signs of demands for divestment, worrying how it would affect their profitability.

 

[Politesse]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But yes, you did wiggle around the issue regarding the response of those in authority and when force and violence isn't necessarily the best option. The FBI didn't storm the BLM in Oregon. DC Police and Security didn't blast away at the invaders. Escalating things at Columbia is a bad idea.

Because they didn't want to make martyrs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason Innocents and children (who could be militants) are dying is because they remain human shields for Gazan leaders. This could all end very quickly with sufficient cooperation from Gazans, including the Hamas.
Tom

It also could end just as quickly if the IDF just stopped.

IDF has every right to manage Israeli security. Gaza has every right not to have to endure a very long siege because of Hamas. Effectively turn Gaza into a refugee camp. How the fuck do you turn a person's home into a refugee camp. Netanyahu achieved something special with that one. One problem with ending the siege (not a ceasefire, but siege) is that Gazans could try to go back home. And someone seems quite unhappy with that possibility.

The Gazans are still in Gaza. There's no issue of "going home".

 

[TomC]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

That is simply nonsense. They have information and they have eyes. Certainly, the difficulty of distinguishing a terrorist does not justify nor excuse killing someone because they might be a terrorist .

 

[TomC]

When Israel continues to seize land against international law on the west bank, drive out the Palestinians (Ethnic cleansing) to effectively expand Israel, I'd say that they have lost credibility to say that they are innocent.

I didn't say innocent, because I don't think there are many of those in the situation.

12,300 dead children, Tom. They were innocent. They were all innocent. That's what it means to be a kid.

Nope.
A 16y/o with a machine gun and a determination to kill the Jews is a child but also a combatant.

This is a problem I keep pointing out and folks like you keep hand waving away. There's no way for the IDF to distinguish between violent terrorists and anybody else in Gaza.
Tom

That is simply nonsense. They have information and they have eyes. Certainly, the difficulty of distinguishing a terrorist does not justify nor excuse killing someone because they might be a terrorist .

Who does?
Hamas? Other Gazans?

How do you think IDF can distinguish if nobody else can?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suppose a bunch of Gazans appealed to the international community for help getting rid of the most corrupt and violent leadership.
What does anyone think would happen?

My guess is nothing.
It's easier to just clutch your pearls and blame those dirty Jews.
Tom

Exactly. Standard leftist approach: Blame the side with the power, especially if they are a hated group. Compared to the standard rightist approach: Blame the side without the power, especially if they are not white, male and Christian.

Neither side has any real interest in trying to truly solve a complex problem, it's all about blame.

 

[Politesse]

Suppose a bunch of Gazans appealed to the international community for help getting rid of the most corrupt and violent leadership.
What does anyone think would happen?

My guess is nothing.
It's easier to just clutch your pearls and blame those dirty Jews.
Tom

Exactly. Standard leftist approach: Blame the side with the power, especially if they are a hated group. Compared to the standard rightist approach: Blame the side without the power, especially if they are not white, male and Christian.

Neither side has any real interest in trying to truly solve a complex problem, it's all about blame.

I do not believe in blame. I do believe in responsibility. A person, an organization, a military must be held accountable on some level for the results of the decisions they make and the actions they take, or the maintenance of civil society becomes impossible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There you go again, conflating Gazan with Hamas. It is true that Hamas's actions started this. The question is how to end it. And right now, it is in the IDF's power to stop. In fact, they have the power to stop this much more quickly than civilian in Gaza. Of course, Hamas could surrender, but that is not going to happen either.

So, the destruction and carnage will continue.

There you go again, assuming Hamas is incapable of doing anything but being a wild animal.

Hamas could end this in an hour, just release the hostages.

 

[TomC]

Suppose a bunch of Gazans appealed to the international community for help getting rid of the most corrupt and violent leadership.
What does anyone think would happen?

My guess is nothing.
It's easier to just clutch your pearls and blame those dirty Jews.
Tom

Exactly. Standard leftist approach: Blame the side with the power, especially if they are a hated group. Compared to the standard rightist approach: Blame the side without the power, especially if they are not white, male and Christian.

Neither side has any real interest in trying to truly solve a complex problem, it's all about blame.

I do not believe in blame. I do believe in responsibility. A person, an organization, a military must be held accountable on some level for the results of the decisions they make and the actions they take, or the maintenance of civil society becomes impossible.

Is Hamas, who is completely responsible for this debacle, being held responsible?
By anyone but Israel?

If so, I'm not seeing it.
PS Hamas is completely responsible. Israel is responding to Hamas.
Tom