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Dem Post Mortem

I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
Emily... ????
Do you not associate our lack of smallpox with the presence and prevalence of use of a smallpox vaccine?
Not an epidemiologist here, but most would probably predict a return of the disease when the practice that locally eradicated it was abandoned.
 
I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
Emily... ????
Do you not associate our lack of smallpox with the presence and prevalence of use of a smallpox vaccine?
Not an epidemiologist here, but most would probably predict a return of the disease when the practice that locally eradicated it was abandoned.
Hence my dunce accusation.
 
What do you think you're conveying here? And in what way is it meaningfully different from my rephrasing?
A lot of Trump voters are conservatives, who are descended from other conservatives, and so on and so forth. Who, naturally, would have been loyal Democrats in the 19th century, but jumped ship over segregation in the mid 20th. All of these are well known facts, and have nothing to do with your ridiculous superlatives.

It's okay, I don't think you're racist just because you voted for Trump, if that's what you did, though I certainly object to your vote for other reasons.
 
What do you think other people infer when you say "But that's all the more reason why we cannot allow these people to steer the ship. We know exactly what kind of society they'll build if they are in charge, and it isn't tolerable to any thinking person with a conscience."?
Probably exactly what I said. Rather than what you said. Who besides you said anything about denying anyone their voting franchise? You're lost in the Foxosphere, old friend, and it's making you paranoid. Get back to reality before you find yourself screaming at the checkout lady for hiding all the eggs.
 
I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
Emily... ????
Do you not associate our lack of smallpox with the presence and prevalence of use of a smallpox vaccine?
Not an epidemiologist here, but most would probably predict a return of the disease when the practice that locally eradicated it was abandoned.
Isn't measles back to being a thing in the US precisely because certain communities are vaccine adverse?

Also (and I'm very much aware that this argument won't land with Trump voters at all), vaccines don't just protect the person taking it but also the people who are so immuno compromised they can't take the vaccine themselves.
 
I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
Emily... ????
Do you not associate our lack of smallpox with the presence and prevalence of use of a smallpox vaccine?
Not an epidemiologist here, but most would probably predict a return of the disease when the practice that locally eradicated it was abandoned.
Isn't measles back to being a thing in the US precisely because certain communities are vaccine adverse?

Also (and I'm very much aware that this argument won't land with Trump voters at all), vaccines don't just protect the person taking it but also the people who are so immuno compromised they can't take the vaccine themselves.
Also Covid wasn't a problem in the U.S. either. Until it was. This shit takes two seconds to think about for people who have braincells.
 
Did you know that homelessness increased by 18% this year according to an article I read this morning?

The 10 million illegals that entered the USA will have contributed.
The ten million wutts?
Those ten million manufactured boogeymen who statistically LOWER the overall US crime rate with their presence?
A made-up stat about homeless "illegals" holds no sway, except in the fevered imaginations of vengeful conservative crusaders.
Don't look now Swiz, but the guy who got you all worked up about this is picking your pocket. He could solve the "homeless problem" in a New York minute, but he cherishes the problem for reasons you exhibit above.
So easy to pick pockets by pointing over there and screaming LOOK OUT! in someone's ear while the other hand is on their wallet.

This shit takes two seconds to think about for people who have braincells.
I used to have brain cells. Recent events have convinced me that they're overrated.
 
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Sooo... what, you're going to revoke the right to vote for half the country because they didn't do what you wanted them to do?
What are you talking about???
What do you think other people infer when you say "But that's all the more reason why we cannot allow these people to steer the ship. We know exactly what kind of society they'll build if they are in charge, and it isn't tolerable to any thinking person with a conscience."?

It rather strongly reads as if you believe that some people (approximately half the voting populace) shouldn't be allowed to express their preferences in the voting booth.

No, not all. It strongly reads as though he thinks rational people should have turned out in bigger numbers to overwhelm the votes of the low-information voters gulled into supporting Trump and his billionaire buddies. It is Trump and his fascist friends who shouldn't be allowed to steer the ship.

Actually suppressing votes is very much a Republican thing. I've never heard of a Democrat promoting such suppression.

Perhaps Politesse's point would be clearer to you if you imagine a literal ship taking on water which literally needs to be steered: Steered ASAP to a nearby harbor before it sinks. Would you be happy if a gang of incompetent, drug-crazed and uncaring teenagers were then "allowed to steer that ship"?
 
if the Polio vaccine gets revoked from approval, or banned, millions of dead or paralyzed kids.
Wait, what now? Why would it get revoked or banned? On the other side... why would that matter in the US?

RFKjr's top lawyer has tried to get the Polio vaccine banned. That's why it's a topic. And if it got banned, well diseases spread. There are still pockets of places on the planet where Polio is still a problem.
Is he trying to get it banned across the entire globe?

I don't know why anyone would be trying to get it banned, at least not the old-school injected vaccine that's been around forever. On the other hand... I guess I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
Sorry, Emily, but polio hasn't been wiped out and there were cases in the US as recently as 2022.

https://www.science.org/content/art...s-it-poses-far-bigger-threat-developing-world

Here’s how this year’s closely related polio outbreaks in New York state, London, and greater Jerusalem might have started. A child in Afghanistan or Pakistan received two drops of Albert Sabin’s oral polio vaccine (OPV), which contains a weakened, live virus, in December 2021 or so. Soon after, when the child was still shedding some virus in their stool, their family traveled to the United Kingdom, where the vaccine virus found fertile ground in an undervaccinated Orthodox Jewish community in London and began to circulate person to person. Somewhere along the way, it also began to change, picking up mutations that can turn the vaccine virus into one that, in rare instances, can paralyze.

That virus then jumped to Israel and to an Orthodox Jewish community in Rockland County, northwest of New York City, says Nicholas Grassly, an epidemiologist at Imperial College London and member of the U.K. National Authority for the Containment of Poliovirus. He reconstructed the “plausible” scenario based on the epidemiological timeline and viral sequences detected in sewage. In Rockland County, an unvaccinated young man in the Orthodox community sought care for weakness in his legs in June—the first U.S. polio case in a decade.

The outbreak, which is continuing, underscores the risks facing unvaccinated and undervaccinated people even in wealthy economies. All three countries have ramped up vaccinations, and on 9 September, New York Governor Kathy Hochul declared a state of emergency in an attempt to curb the outbreak.

I was born prior to the development of the polio vaccine and I remember watching the news and seeing people in what is known as iron lungs. I once worked with a nurse who had her leg permanently damaged from polio and I recall how excited we and our parents were when public health nurses came to my school to administer the polio vaccine to us. Small pox is pretty much considered to be wiped out, but polio isn't wiped out and it continues to be a problem in some countries, which is why many of us are very concerned to say the least about some of Trump's appointments. Sadly, too many of his supporters were ignorant about the dangers he proposes and I personally blame Mitch McConnell for this fiasco. If he had worked to get the Senate to remove him from office during the impeachment process, the man would not have been permitted to run for president. I have a feeling that Mitch, who had polio himself as a child, regrets his decision, but I doubt he will admit it.
 
Perhaps Politesse's point would be clearer to you if you imagine a literal ship taking on water which literally needs to be steered: Steered ASAP to a nearby harbor before it sinks. Would you be happy if a gang of incompetent, drug-crazed and uncaring teenagers were then "allowed to steer that ship"?
Dear god, are you suggesting we toss all the teenagers overboard to prevent them from steering the ship?

:ROFLMAO:
 
One reason why countries like Ireland, Macau, Bermuda ... and the USA -- do so well in GDP is financial industries: "economic" activity which offers little help for ordinary "people." (I quote "people" since I refer to H. sapiens while the term includes corporations in post-rational American diction.)
Agreed, you can't make a reasonable comparison for the haven countries. Look at the others.

It is true that the U.S.A. continues to be "the most prosperous country" in world history ... for the average or median American. Americans are thrilled that they can replace their iPhones every three years while many in other countries make do with 4-year-old iPhones. Elite Americans can pay for the best health care in the world, no need to delay one's plastic surgery to waste time on the diseased too indigent to afford premium health care. The homeless are mostly kept out of sight -- separated from median Americans by embittered armed police -- but left visible enough to provide pleasure to the masses in knowing they are privileged. If neurologists had a simple way to measure actual contentment I'd not be surprised to learn that the average Thai scores higher than the average American.

I've attached an image showing "happiness" scores. The US ranks with Mexico and behind several European countries and even two other Anglophone states. And this despite that GDP is a major component of this "Happiness Index."

View attachment 48932
I don't think much of happiness ratings because they're so subjective.
 
Americans are thrilled that they can replace their iPhones every three years while many in other countries make do with 4-year-old iPhones.
Murkins are stupid. Or maybe it’s just me.
They’ve been begging me to replace my iPhone 11pro ever since I got it in 2019. It replaced my iPhone 6 only because Apple had put a battery in the 6 that was designed to fail in a few years.
They don't really have a choice. That's simply the nature of Li-Ion batteries. Expect their capacity to drop over time.

When you don't really care about weight and don't care about weather seal this isn't a big deal. My battery powered tools the battery is a separate package that can be replaced when it gets too weak. And the power requirements aren't a hard limit. If the battery delivers 99% of what the motor wants the motor simply turns a little bit slower. The connection between the battery and the tool is not weather-sealed.

The iPhone, though--the weather seal and the desire to make it as small and light as possible mean popping in a new one isn't trivial. And if the battery provides 99% of the power the phone wants the phone crashes. And when Apple programmed their phone to take note of the aging battery and run a bit slower to avoid the crash people were furious.

The kind of thrill that only a new iPhone Ten Thousand Pro XLT with AI fuel Injection can provide, will forever remain beyond my ability to appreciate at all.
But maybe people need those when they fly thousands of miles to see their far-flung families, meeting in Greece or Fiji to spend a couple of days escaping the winter (summer, spring, fall) where they “live”(work) and commiserating with the relatives about why their 80k income doesn’t seem to let them “get ahead” any more.
I have no need for the latest and greatest.
 
if the Polio vaccine gets revoked from approval, or banned, millions of dead or paralyzed kids.
Wait, what now? Why would it get revoked or banned? On the other side... why would that matter in the US?

RFKjr's top lawyer has tried to get the Polio vaccine banned. That's why it's a topic. And if it got banned, well diseases spread. There are still pockets of places on the planet where Polio is still a problem.
Is he trying to get it banned across the entire globe?

I don't know why anyone would be trying to get it banned, at least not the old-school injected vaccine that's been around forever. On the other hand... I guess I also figure it's more or less in the same camp as smallpox, and not a particular concern in the US.
You clearly do not understand what the Republicans are trying to do.

He's a anti-vax kook, why do you expect him not to try to kook? And polio is only a non-issue in the US because enough people are vaccinated. Quit vaccinating and sooner or later it would return.

As for smallpox--it wasn't a threat in the US because of vaccination. Travelers, though--I can't remember if we were actually asked for our yellow books one time, I probably just handed it over with my passport as I knew it would be required. I've been in plenty of places where normal border formalities were passport and yellow book.
 
One reason why countries like Ireland, Macau, Bermuda ... and the USA -- do so well in GDP is financial industries: "economic" activity which offers little help for ordinary "people." (I quote "people" since I refer to H. sapiens while the term includes corporations in post-rational American diction.)
Agreed, you can't make a reasonable comparison for the haven countries. Look at the others.

Did you notice I included USA on the list of what YOU call "havens"? Should we exclude it too?

But I didn't use the term "havens." What I wrote is in Red above.

GDP measures the "production of goods and services." If a drug company raises its prices to make an extra million dollars to pay its CEO's salary, that million is included in GDP! Break windows and then repair them? The cost of repair is included in GDP; the breakage is NOT subtracted. GDP blipped upward when employment surged to clean up from the Exxon Valdez oil spill.

Wells Fargo increased GDP with its fraudulent service charges. GDP includes the million-dollar bonus paid to the Merrill Lynch "analyst" who made money for his firm with a pump-and-dump scheme and never went to prison.

Income for millionaires and billionaires is factored in to "average household income." Do you REALLY think that's a good metric to learn how STRUGGLING American households are doing?

This only scratches the surface of flaws in GDP as a metric. In older "happier" days, Mrs. Smith and Mrs. Jones were "unemployed" homemakers. Smith stayed home and mopped the floor; Jones stayed home to make delicious nutritious meals. None of this labor was included in GDP. Now to make ends meet, Mrs. Smith has a job mopping other people's floors. Mrs. Jones got a job preparing food and has time only to serve her family fast food. But now their labor IS included in GDP.

And you complain that "happiness ratings" are "subjective"? In fact, the scores are derived from well-defined quantitative criteria, e.g. infant mortality. The U.S. has 6.3 under-five deaths per 1000 births, higher than Uruguay or Russia and much higher than Finland (2.3) or Japan (2.5). But I agree: "Happiness" is hard to measure; happiness scores might be almost as flawed as GDP.

But it's cynical to discard a subjective rating that goes against your particular point while embracing an equally subjective rating that supports it.

It is true that the U.S.A. continues to be "the most prosperous country" in world history ... for the average or median American. Americans are thrilled that they can replace their iPhones every three years while many in other countries make do with 4-year-old iPhones. Elite Americans can pay for the best health care in the world, no need to delay one's plastic surgery to waste time on the diseased too indigent to afford premium health care. The homeless are mostly kept out of sight -- separated from median Americans by embittered armed police -- but left visible enough to provide pleasure to the masses in knowing they are privileged. If neurologists had a simple way to measure actual contentment I'd not be surprised to learn that the average Thai scores higher than the average American.

I've attached an image showing "happiness" scores. The US ranks with Mexico and behind several European countries and even two other Anglophone states. And this despite that GDP is a major component of this "Happiness Index."
 
As for smallpox--it wasn't a threat in the US because of vaccination. Travelers, though--I can't remember if we were actually asked for our yellow books one time, I probably just handed it over with my passport as I knew it would be required. I've been in plenty of places where normal border formalities were passport and yellow book.
Smallpox has existed only in laboratories since it was declared eradicated in 1980, and no country has required vaccination since then.

The last case 'in the wild' was in Somalia in 1977; The last recorded case of any kind was in Birmingham, England, in 1978, when a photographer at the Birmingham Medical School contracted it from the Infectious Diseases Unit at that school, by means never fully determined. The facility was one of a handful worldwide that had smallpox for research purposes; The head of the Infectious Diseases Unit committed suicide, but an investigation later cleared him and his staff of any wrongdoing.

Smallpox remains the only infectious disease to have been eradicated entirely, and as such is the only infectious disease for which vaccination is completely unnecessary.

Polio, despite being a much more difficult target, came close to eradication a few years ago, but a combination of war and superstition (rumours were spread that the vaccination was a US government and/or local Christian plot to harm Muslims) meant that it has since become resurgent in parts of Africa, and recent cases have made their way to New York, Israel, and the UK, spread by orthodox Jewish communities that are vaccine averse.
 
Smallpox has existed only in laboratories since it was declared eradicated in 1980, and no country has required vaccination since then.

I've thought of the eradication of smallpox as a major triumph. I mentioned it as an example of something "only governments can do" during a debate with a team of "Libertarians" but they saw no problem. In their ideology, no government is needed at all: Private police can be called to keep the kids off one's lawn.

I also mentioned flood control as an issue where government spending comes in handy, but they seemed to think each little farmer along the Chao Phya River could have built a levee along his own property to save Thailand from the Great Flood of 2011. Almost as inanely, they said "Who needs flood control anyway? Smart farmers will ensure their revenue by buying appropriate future weather contracts at the Chicago Board of Trade!" :whisper:
 
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