Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Derec]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

Source: trust me, bro.

In reality you do not want the supposedly "scientific" paper to be scrutinized on its methodology etc.

 

[Derec]

I'll need a substantial salary boost if I'm to correct all of Derec's misconcenptions, but from time to time I'll point out some of the most blatant idiocies!

Yet again, you have nothing except insults.

The quote above shows hypocrisy: The J6 insurrection (treason) "is a part of" America's bigoted and feeble-brained pro-Fascist movement. Using an extrapolation similar to the one he employs, does this not permit us to label Derec a traitor?

This is silly even for you. However you want to characterize the J6ers, they are a small group compared to the US population.
For a refresher, this is the statement, made by pood, that started this exchange.

This is completely false. The Palestinian people did not attack Israel, Hamas did. The Palestinian people have as little say over what Hamas does as I have over what Trump does. I do not support or condone Hamas.
You have been repeatedly corrected on this point. Please stop propounding the poisonous falsehood that the Palestinian people attacked Israel.

This statement by pood makes Hamas seem like some external entity and not part of the Palestinian society. In reality it is an integral part of it. It is also, if not the most popular faction among Palestinians, then in the top 2. Especially in Gaza.

Pood as well as you also completely disregarded my point that it was not only Hamas that attacked Israel on 10/7, but that other factions participated, spanning the political spectrum from the fellow Islamists of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad to the Marxist-Leninists of PFLP and DFLP.

So, it is very much the case that Palestinians attacked Israel.

 

[TomC]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA, and not everyone in USA was a racist, and you are making stuff up. It wouldn't be Jews doing it but the UN and USA together making a sovereign territory available.
My comment was not a derail, but a response to a claim.

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA,

Were you there? How do you define "well accepted"? My grandfather felt compelled to change his last name from an obviously Jewish one to a more neutral one because of how well accepted he was in the 1930s USA. Maybe in the "late 1940s" it was substantially better, but I doubt it.

 

[TomC]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA,

Were you there? How do you define "well accepted"? My grandfather felt compelled to change his last name from an obviously Jewish one to a more neutral one because of how well accepted he was in the 1930s USA. Maybe in the "late 1940s" it was substantially better, but I doubt it.

Exactly.
@Spacetime Inhabitant clearly doesn't know as much about the USA as he thinks he does. How freakishly racist most of our history has been. Things have improved hugely in the last few decades, but back then it was rough on anyone who didn't match The Founding Fathers.
My parents were born in the 20s. They remember signs in shop windows:
No niggers
No jews
No irish
No dogs
(They were Irish)

The idea that Jewish people could set up a state where they were safe from their immediate neighbors and the government here in the USA is ridiculous. They've got centuries of history explaining why that's so important.

I notice that SI is from one of those weird places where Christmas comes in high summer.
Tom

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA,

Were you there? How do you define "well accepted"? My grandfather felt compelled to change his last name from an obviously Jewish one to a more neutral one because of how well accepted he was in the 1930s USA. Maybe in the "late 1940s" it was substantially better, but I doubt it.

Not all Jews had obviously Jewish names. It was quite common for immigrants to change or anglicize their names for acceptance.
It WAS quite different as the world had gone from one where Jews had been rejected by US government to a world that had gone through a terrible war and people knew about the holocaust. There were popular Jewish entertainers, authors, bridge players, etcetera.
People had Jewish friends, whether they had Jewish names or not.
"Were you there" is a bad argument. So no I wasn't there but have read and seen much about life in the USA then.

 

[laughing dog]

Antisemitism in the US during the 1940s was not as harsh or violent as it had been in Europe, but even in 1947 a movie - Gentleman's Agreement (starring Gregory Peck) about a journalist who pretends to be Jewish in order to write an article about antisemistism was very popular.

My early years (late 1950s and early 1960s) were in NYC, and even as a young boy, I witnessed anti-semitism.

 

[ZiprHead]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA, and not everyone in USA was a racist, and you are making stuff up. It wouldn't be Jews doing it but the UN and USA together making a sovereign territory available.
My comment was not a derail, but a response to a claim.

IIRC, Jews fleeing from Germany and other troublesome places in Europe were refused entry into the United States. Many had to return and were killed.

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

What makes you think that mid-40s USA was at all hospitable to Jewish people? That's incredibly ignorant.

Heck we didn't even like native born Christians if they were non-white. You think that the UN would have given recognition to Jews declaring a chunk of the US a sovereign country?
Tom

ETA ~There's a thread specifically for this topic. Here it's a derail.~

Rubbish, Jews were quite well accepted in late 1940s USA,

Were you there? How do you define "well accepted"? My grandfather felt compelled to change his last name from an obviously Jewish one to a more neutral one because of how well accepted he was in the 1930s USA. Maybe in the "late 1940s" it was substantially better, but I doubt it.

Not all Jews had obviously Jewish names. It was quite common for immigrants to change or anglicize their names for acceptance.
It WAS quite different as the world had gone from one where Jews had been rejected by US government to a world that had gone through a terrible war and people knew about the holocaust. There were popular Jewish entertainers, authors, bridge players, etcetera.
People had Jewish friends, whether they had Jewish names or not.
"Were you there" is a bad argument. So no I wasn't there but have read and seen much about life in the USA then.

“Were you there” isn’t the greatest argument but it does bring into question the validity of your observations because they are so indirect. You didn’t answer the other question I asked, which was how you define “well accepted”. Sure they weren’t lynched openly on the streets like black people, but there was lots of discrimination. My grandfather had an anglicized name (Goldberg), which his family adopted when they moved to England from Poland (where they had a Polish last name). The reason he changed it was due to the open antisemitism at the time, not because it wasn’t anglicized.

 

[Shadowy Man]

There were popular Jewish entertainers, authors, bridge players, etcetera.

a lot of those Jews also changed their last names to avoid antisemitism

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

They would trust the USA? The very USA that had blocked Jews that were trying to get away from Hitler? (Admittedly, before the Holocaust was known about.)

Oh, the Holocaust was known about. But most people just handwaved it away as obviously hyperbolic propaganda.

You know, just like some folks do when people suggest that there's a genocide happening in Gaza. You can rationalise literally any evidence as lies, exaggerations, or misunderstandings.

There is no major dispute about the death toll in Gaza, the dispute is about what it means. Consider Ireland's submission to the ICC: they want the definition of genocide changed so that what happened in Gaza is genocide. That clearly says they know that what happened in Gaza does not meet the current definition of genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This statement by pood makes Hamas seem like some external entity and not part of the Palestinian society. In reality it is an integral part of it. It is also, if not the most popular faction among Palestinians, then in the top 2. Especially in Gaza.

Being the only choice doesn't make it what they actually want. You're making an unwarranted jump here.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not all Jews had obviously Jewish names. It was quite common for immigrants to change or anglicize their names for acceptance.
It WAS quite different as the world had gone from one where Jews had been rejected by US government to a world that had gone through a terrible war and people knew about the holocaust. There were popular Jewish entertainers, authors, bridge players, etcetera.
People had Jewish friends, whether they had Jewish names or not.
"Were you there" is a bad argument. So no I wasn't there but have read and seen much about life in the USA then.

Just because there wasn't the degree of trouble here as there doesn't mean they would feel safe. History is full of times of temporary safety for the Jews that in a generation or two became unsafe. We had a track record of being bad to them, they would have no reason to trust that times would be forever good going forward.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The Palestinian militant group Hamas has recruited between 10,000 and 15,000 members since the start of its war with Israel, according to two congressional sources briefed on U.S. intelligence, suggesting the Iran-backed fighters could remain a persistent threat to Israel.

Huh. Well now how did that happen? Betcha a year from now Hamas is stronger than they were a year ago.

Exclusive: Hamas has added up to 15,000 fighters since start of war, US figures show

 

[pood]

The Palestinian militant group Hamas has recruited between 10,000 and 15,000 members since the start of its war with Israel, according to two congressional sources briefed on U.S. intelligence, suggesting the Iran-backed fighters could remain a persistent threat to Israel.

Huh. Well now how did that happen? Betcha a year from now Hamas is stronger than they were a year ago.

Exclusive: Hamas has added up to 15,000 fighters since start of war, US figures show

You beat me to you it.

Over to you, all you supporters of Israel’s war in war in Gaza. The rest of us can just sit back and say, “Told you so.” How hard is it to figure out that slaughtering a bunch of innocent Palestinians was only going to increase Hamas fighters and support for Hamas?

 

[Emily Lake]

Israeli action do not breed terrorists, Iranian money breeds terrorists.

How is slaughtering 17,000 children supposed to stop Iranian money? It's had quite the opposite effect in practice. The inhuman actions you endorse with so little thought are practically printing their propaganda for them, and the fundraising is pouring in by the billions. When shocked parents are stumbling through the streets with their children's disembodied heads, they don't even have to write the words "No solution but jihad" below the photo, the caption is just situationally implied. You're just doing free recruiting for the enemy at that point. Those kind of images don't make people scared, they make them furious. That's exactly why the Palestinian Authority did what they did, they knew it would provoke a usedul overreaction and both fund and motivate the next century of pointless, bloody war.

Where's your compassion for the Israeli women and children raped and tortured throughout this?

 

[Emily Lake]

In countersigning the genocide of the Palestinian people, he joined in the very worst of American presidential traditions, that which has tarnished the reputation and effectiveness of the office since the hour of its formation.

I genuinely don't get how someone who seems so intelligent can so completely swallow this "palestinian genocide" propaganda.

Yeah, well. I may confuse you, but you don't confuse me in the slightest.

Dogmatists are rarely confused when the reality they refuse to acknowledge doesn't accord with their beliefs.

 

[Politesse]

Israeli action do not breed terrorists, Iranian money breeds terrorists.

How is slaughtering 17,000 children supposed to stop Iranian money? It's had quite the opposite effect in practice. The inhuman actions you endorse with so little thought are practically printing their propaganda for them, and the fundraising is pouring in by the billions. When shocked parents are stumbling through the streets with their children's disembodied heads, they don't even have to write the words "No solution but jihad" below the photo, the caption is just situationally implied. You're just doing free recruiting for the enemy at that point. Those kind of images don't make people scared, they make them furious. That's exactly why the Palestinian Authority did what they did, they knew it would provoke a usedul overreaction and both fund and motivate the next century of pointless, bloody war.

Where's your compassion for the Israeli women and children raped and tortured throughout this?

I think their deaths are an unthinkable tragedy.

I don't believe most of them had any part in this political struggle being waged around them, that took their lives so suddenly and unjustly. Nor that they would wish for thousands more children to be killed in their name. You have a funny way of honoring their memory, if you think providing capital to fund the killing of more innocents grants any peace at all to their souls.

 

[Emily Lake]

No, I don't think I will bother to hunt down the URL. The pro-Netanyahu ilk wouldn't be bothered to read it.

How do you distinguish between pro-Netanyahu ilk and the pro-multi ethnic and democracy ilk?
Tom

Since the Netanyahu ilk is neither pro-multi ethnic, it isn't hard at all.

You believe that why, exactly?

Ever looked at stats on Israeli citizens? Last I saw on Wikipedia,
Practicing Jews 50%
Ethnic non practicing Jews 20%
Arabic Muslim 20%
Other 10%

Compare that to the violent terrorist people they are surrounded by and have been under assault or threat of assault since May 1948.
Tom

So, if its that bad an environment why did they choose to live there? Indeed, why did they establish Israel there instead of a more hospitable place such as in the USA?

IIRC, it's because 1) Israel is the historic homeland of the jews from which they were chased out over eons of persecution by damned near the entire world and 2) it was owned by the brits at the time and the brits gave it to them.

It's not like a platoon of heavily armed jewish folks stormed the beaches and wrested the land from the noble indiginous people.