Are people already regretting their choice?

[RVonse]

The stock market downturn hurts everyone....but it especially hurts the rich. The filthy rich are ones who own most of the US stock market BY FAR....

Oh spare me. Your unconditional sycophancy towards scum like Trump and Musk is proof positive that you fucking love the filthy rich. You clearly hate the middle class and working families.

Wm of Ockham: Do not ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

Congrats on waking up from your coma. But I feel as if I have to tell you that for years the "fuck your feelings" MAGA cunts are all about the cruelty and literally nothing else.

Which "coma" was that?

Anyway, the alleged Ockham quote referred to Mr. RVonse who seems to have a sincere belief that Trump's policies will "save" America.

I still wonder if there is SOME book or news article that would wake RVonse up. I think we should engage him and try to challenge his faith. He can be a "case study" in how to get Trumpists to grasp reality. This thread's title makes it look like the right place to point out facts that will help educate sincere but under-informed Trumpists.

Can we do it? Will you help, Patooka?

• I assume it will do no good to point out that much of what Trump says is a lie. MAGATs treat these lies as sarcasm, comedy, and/or antidotes to liberal lies.
• I assume that deporting green-card holders to a prison in El Salvador for denouncing Trump on social media will not bother MAGAts. Dissent is not what is needed for our brave new world. And anyway, America is for Americans.
• Trump's ignorance and refusal to listen to expert advice will not sway the MAGAts. Trump is an idiot-savant whose instincts and intuition outperform a dozen platoons of PhDs.
• Musk's decimation of the SSA, which will lead to people not getting their checks. doesn't bother MAGAts. Even retired MAGAts are happy to sacrifice for the greater good. We have to start paying off the $36 trillion debt somehow; depriving useless retirees makes more sense than denying another tax cut to the billionaires who will help Make America Great Again.
• Decimating the IRS is also a step in the right direction. Liberals are suckers who will pay their taxes even if the IRS lacks the wherewithal to audit. Republicans now free to cheat will instead donate to charity or Create Jobs with the extra money.
• Character issues like harassing and even raping women are no drawback. We NEED a virile man to confront Denmark and our other enemies. Anyway, wouldn't YOU be grabbing pussy if you were a billionaire and a star?
• Some Democrats are whining that Trump's government will no longer provide security for Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden's children. But the American taxpayer isn't "made of money"!! What better way to save money? Anyway, unlike Trump's family, these scumbags grifted millions from the taxpayer and can pay for their own security.

I could go on, but you see the problem: MAGAts have an answer for most complaints.

Surely there is SOME way to lead MAGAts (at least the few that aren't primarily motivated by hatreds and self-pity) to the Trough of Knowledge. But how?

Can anyone help? @RVonse -- Is there ANY complaint against Trump you'd like to learn more about?

The best argument against MAGA is a Democrat solution. If Trump is nuts, how do you believe manufacturing can be brought back to America? Doing nothing is no longer survivable because $1trillion+ deficits are not survivable. And not having our own heavy manufacturing is incompatible with remaining a reserve status exceptional country.

So I ask again. Do the Democrats just want to sit around and die? Tell us what you would do and find someone with the balls to put forward that solution and make that happen. That is how you convince MAGA to become Democrats again. MAGA is loyal to Trump as long as he is seen to be our only and last hope for survival.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The solution is to find employment options for the 21st century, not the mid-20th century. Automation has decimated jobs. Real AI is going to destroy tens of millions of jobs, including highly rewarded professions in medicine, law, engineering.

We need to be thinking how we are going to manage that in the mid 21st century, not pretend we can open up enough factories like it is the 1920s and employee all the people that lost their jobs.

 

[laughing dog]

The stock market downturn hurts everyone....but it especially hurts the rich. The filthy rich are ones who own most of the US stock market BY FAR....

Oh spare me. Your unconditional sycophancy towards scum like Trump and Musk is proof positive that you fucking love the filthy rich. You clearly hate the middle class and working families.

Wm of Ockham: Do not ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

Congrats on waking up from your coma. But I feel as if I have to tell you that for years the "fuck your feelings" MAGA cunts are all about the cruelty and literally nothing else.

Which "coma" was that?

Anyway, the alleged Ockham quote referred to Mr. RVonse who seems to have a sincere belief that Trump's policies will "save" America.

I still wonder if there is SOME book or news article that would wake RVonse up. I think we should engage him and try to challenge his faith. He can be a "case study" in how to get Trumpists to grasp reality. This thread's title makes it look like the right place to point out facts that will help educate sincere but under-informed Trumpists.

Can we do it? Will you help, Patooka?

• I assume it will do no good to point out that much of what Trump says is a lie. MAGATs treat these lies as sarcasm, comedy, and/or antidotes to liberal lies.
• I assume that deporting green-card holders to a prison in El Salvador for denouncing Trump on social media will not bother MAGAts. Dissent is not what is needed for our brave new world. And anyway, America is for Americans.
• Trump's ignorance and refusal to listen to expert advice will not sway the MAGAts. Trump is an idiot-savant whose instincts and intuition outperform a dozen platoons of PhDs.
• Musk's decimation of the SSA, which will lead to people not getting their checks. doesn't bother MAGAts. Even retired MAGAts are happy to sacrifice for the greater good. We have to start paying off the $36 trillion debt somehow; depriving useless retirees makes more sense than denying another tax cut to the billionaires who will help Make America Great Again.
• Decimating the IRS is also a step in the right direction. Liberals are suckers who will pay their taxes even if the IRS lacks the wherewithal to audit. Republicans now free to cheat will instead donate to charity or Create Jobs with the extra money.
• Character issues like harassing and even raping women are no drawback. We NEED a virile man to confront Denmark and our other enemies. Anyway, wouldn't YOU be grabbing pussy if you were a billionaire and a star?
• Some Democrats are whining that Trump's government will no longer provide security for Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden's children. But the American taxpayer isn't "made of money"!! What better way to save money? Anyway, unlike Trump's family, these scumbags grifted millions from the taxpayer and can pay for their own security.

I could go on, but you see the problem: MAGAts have an answer for most complaints.

Surely there is SOME way to lead MAGAts (at least the few that aren't primarily motivated by hatreds and self-pity) to the Trough of Knowledge. But how?

Can anyone help? @RVonse -- Is there ANY complaint against Trump you'd like to learn more about?

The best argument against MAGA is a Democrat solution. If Trump is nuts, how do you believe manufacturing can be brought back to America? Doing nothing is no longer survivable because $1trillion+ deficits are not survivable. And not having our own heavy manufacturing is incompatible with remaining a reserve status exceptional country.

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

So I ask again. Do the Democrats just want to sit around and die?

If you are worried about dying, climate change is much more existential issue that whether or not there enough manufacturing jobs.

Tell us what you would do and find someone with the balls to put forward that solution and make that happen. That is how you convince MAGA to become Democrats again. MAGA is loyal to Trump as long as he is seen to be our only and last hope for survival.

If your persistence in delusional thinking despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary is typical of MAGA, then we are doomed.

 

[Swammerdami]

The best argument against MAGA is a Democrat solution. If Trump is nuts, how do you believe manufacturing can be brought back to America? Doing nothing is no longer survivable because $1trillion+ deficits are not survivable. And not having our own heavy manufacturing is incompatible with remaining a reserve status exceptional country.

So I ask again. Do the Democrats just want to sit around and die? ...

I think we all -- especially Democrats -- agree that American employment is a worthy goal. Is there something special about "heavy manufacturing"?
Isn't Employment in general the logical economic objective? Especially since manufacturing jobs are increasingly done by robots. (I am reminded of a recent Trump photo-op in West Virginia. Trump said something like "coal miners just want to be coal miners" while the coal miners in the photo-frame just rolled their eyes.)
U.S. DOES manufacture. (Boeing is big; and the U.S. automobile industry is still one of the biggest in the world.) But services are very important. American hospitals and universities are still the best in the world; they employ many VERY qualified people.) And so on.

Below I submit a graph for your consideration. The dotted blue line in the middle is what's relevant (the other two lines are in case you want to check FRED's arithmetic! ) Non-farm employment rose from 30% at JFK's election to 40% at the end of Carter's term. (I think this rise was mainly due to women entering the work force.) You then see a big slump for the Bush-41 recession; a rise to record levels under Clinton; dismal performance under Bush-43 especially due to the Wall St. gambling he encouraged; then steady growth until the Pandemic. After the pandemic there was a boom under Biden, almost equaling Clinton's peak in the year 2000. The very high employment number in 2024 is especially compelling since many Boomers have retired.

Stated more succinctly, Presidents Clinton and Biden have the best records for job creation. Your belief that there is a severe "problem" for which Trumpism is the antidote is mostly a sign that you've been brainwashed by QOPAnon propaganda.


Click here for the same graph as the attached image, but interactive

 

[Elixir]

If Trump is nuts, how do you believe manufacturing can be brought back to America?

Trump isn't nuts he's just stupid and greedy.
You should have stuck with Biden if you wanted investment in American manufacturing. More than DOUBLE what the previous Trump administration was able to effect.
READ AND LEARN, VONSE. You've been played for the fool.

"Investment in U.S. production and manufacturing saw a marked increase during the Biden administration compared to the preceding administration, both in terms of total dollars committed and the breadth of sectors targeted. The Biden administration’s approach was characterized by large-scale public investment, legislative incentives, and a focus on clean energy and advanced manufacturing, while the preceding administration (Trump) emphasized onshoring, deregulation, and direct engagement with major corporations.

Investment Levels and Job Creation​

• Biden Administration (2021–2025):
  
  • Over $1 trillion in private sector investments announced in clean energy, semiconductors, and advanced manufacturing since 2021

• Nearly $800–$910 billion specifically in manufacturing projects, with record highs in factory construction and manufacturing job creation (over 700,000–800,000 new jobs)

• Major legislative drivers: Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, CHIPS and Science Act, Inflation Reduction Act, all designed to catalyze private investment and modernize U.S. manufacturing

• Real investment in factory construction more than doubled, breaking record highs for nine consecutive quarters as of late 2024

• The U.S. regained global leadership in semiconductor manufacturing, with all five of the world’s most advanced chipmakers now operating in the U.S.
  • .
• Preceding Administration (Trump, 2017–2021):
  
  
• The Trump administration’s approach relied more on direct negotiation and policy incentives for individual companies, with a focus on “America First” trade and manufacturing policies

 

[Toni]

If Trump is nuts, how do you believe manufacturing can be brought back to America?

Trump isn't nuts he's just stupid and greedy.
You should have stuck with Biden if you wanted investment in American manufacturing. More than DOUBLE what the previous Trump administration was able to effect.
READ AND LEARN, VONSE. You've been played for the fool.

"Investment in U.S. production and manufacturing saw a marked increase during the Biden administration compared to the preceding administration, both in terms of total dollars committed and the breadth of sectors targeted. The Biden administration’s approach was characterized by large-scale public investment, legislative incentives, and a focus on clean energy and advanced manufacturing, while the preceding administration (Trump) emphasized onshoring, deregulation, and direct engagement with major corporations.

​

Investment Levels and Job Creation​

​

• Biden Administration (2021–2025):
  • Over $1 trillion in private sector investments announced in clean energy, semiconductors, and advanced manufacturing since 2021
• Nearly $800–$910 billion specifically in manufacturing projects, with record highs in factory construction and manufacturing job creation (over 700,000–800,000 new jobs)
• Major legislative drivers: Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, CHIPS and Science Act, Inflation Reduction Act, all designed to catalyze private investment and modernize U.S. manufacturing
• Real investment in factory construction more than doubled, breaking record highs for nine consecutive quarters as of late 2024
• The U.S. regained global leadership in semiconductor manufacturing, with all five of the world’s most advanced chipmakers now operating in the U.S.
  • .
• Preceding Administration (Trump, 2017–2021):
  
  
• The Trump administration’s approach relied more on direct negotiation and policy incentives for individual companies, with a focus on “America First” trade and manufacturing policies

Trump is nuts. He's also a malignant narcissist with increasing dementia, and without any of the requisite skills or knowledge or abilities to make him even semi-competent at his job.

 

[Elixir]

Trump is nuts. He's also a malignant narcissist with increasing dementia, and without any of the requisite skills or knowledge or abilities to make him even semi-competent at his job.

That's what really pwns the libs. And that is FAR more important to trumpsuckers than not letting people be disappeared, or having an economy or having a middle class... a Police State is fine with them as long as the Apricot is the head cop.

 

[Toni]

Trump is nuts. He's also a malignant narcissist with increasing dementia, and without any of the requisite skills or knowledge or abilities to make him even semi-competent at his job.

That's what really pwns the libs. And that is FAR more important to trumpsuckers than not letting people be disappeared, or having an economy or having a middle class... a Police State is fine with them as long as the Apricot is the head cop.

Yeah, unfortunately I just ended a friendship of 50+ years because of this.

 

[bilby]

not having our own heavy manufacturing is incompatible with remaining a reserve status exceptional country.

Then you stopped having that status about thirty years ago. And nobody - not one of the incredibly intelligent people on Wall Street, or in Tokyo, or London, or Paris, or Frankfurt, who are paid the big bucks to do nothing but look at influences on currency values - noticed until now.

Or, that claim is simply false, and what is "incompatible with remaining a reserve status exceptional country" is the stuff Trump has been doing with tariffs and his general undermining of the whole basis of international trade, international security, and the diplomatic position of the USA since 1945.

 

[RVonse]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

US heavy manufacturing is necessary to maintain military dominance. Because once a war is established (other than nuclear) the side who can maintain weapons logistics will win. Our soldiers would not have won ww2 without the women who built the airplanes and tanks.

Manufacturing is also important to maintaining our reserve currency. Without US goods to buy the rest of the world can only spend their excess dollars on US assets such as housing or land. Besides increasing the value of assets so they become unaffordable, the US ends up being "owned" by the rest of the world. And this isn't the fault of the rest of the world they simply have our dollars that we foolishly print profusely and don't have anything else to buy from the US because services are not easily exportable.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

 

[laughing dog]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

US heavy manufacturing is necessary to maintain military dominance. Because once a war is established (other than nuclear) the side who can maintain weapons logistics will win. Our soldiers would not have won ww2 without the women who built the airplanes and tanks.

Manufacturing is also important to maintaining our reserve currency. Without US goods to buy the rest of the world can only spend their excess dollars on US assets such as housing or land. Besides increasing the value of assets so they become unaffordable, the US ends up being "owned" by the rest of the world. And this isn't the fault of the rest of the world they simply have our dollars that we foolishly print profusely and don't have anything else to buy from the US because services are not easily exportable.

You shifted the goal posts because none of that provides a rational for tying heavy manufacturing to federal deficits or to reserve currency status.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

Better solution than throwing the global trading order into chaos by making everything more expensive in the US while reducing US GDP and US prestige worldwide, destroying universities and most basic research, Doing nothing is a better solution.

Reducing debt is simple - keep spending growth at the rate of inflation. Tax revenues will grow at the rate of GDP (which grows at the rate of inflation + production).

 

[bilby]

US heavy manufacturing is necessary to maintain military dominance. Because once a war is established (other than nuclear) the side who can maintain weapons logistics will win.

The US has no shortage of military manufacturing; She is a large net exporter of weapons systems, particularly heavy weapons systems.

Building automobiles (or refrigerators, or televisions...) is not relevant to that industry.

 

[Swammerdami]

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance?

Are you aware that during just five years of the Clinton Administration, gross federal debt as a percentage of GDP plummeted from 64½% to 54½%? Why do you think that was? Did US lose its dominance during that time?

What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

The U.S. remains a great economic powerhouse. Low-skilled workers are much worse off than low-skilled workers in the prosperous countries of Europe for a variety of reasons, but mostly due to U.S. laws, taxation and welfare policies passed by Republicans to favor corporations and the rich.

Do Trump's policies really help?

• GM investors don't think so. GM stock is still down 25% from its November high. Ford is down 17% from its November high. Caterpillar is down a whopping 28% from its November high. Those are three of the biggest U.S. manufacturers.
  
  Yes, that's right. Despite a partial recovery when Trump announced that his tariffs had just been a dump-and-pump scheme, major U.S. exporters of machinery are STILL being shunned by U.S. investors. Those investors, unlike pundits at Truth Social or wherever you get your news, do not think Trump is creating a boom economy!
• Rolls-Royce is the major European competitor for U.S. aircraft engine production. Are Rolls-Royce investors quivering in fear, because of the impending Trump "boom" for its US competitors? Let's look at the stock price.
  Rolls-Royce closed at £39 per share as recently as 28 Sept 2020. The price rose steadily but was still only £199 as recently as October 2023.
  It is now -- even after Trump admitted his was just a dump-and-pump -- £732 per share -- Yes, that's £732 with an S for Seven, up from £540 after Trump's election.
  Those Rolls-Royce investors are sure quivering over Trump's magical manufacturing boom, hunh?

@RVonse -- Have you ever told us where you get your "news" and opinions? Is it X, Truth Social, or OAN?

 

[Patooka]

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance?

Are you aware that during just five years of the Clinton Administration, gross federal debt as a percentage of GDP plummeted from 64½% to 54½%? Why do you think that was? Did US lose its dominance during that time?

What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

The U.S. remains a great economic powerhouse. Low-skilled workers are much worse off than low-skilled workers in the prosperous countries of Europe for a variety of reasons, but mostly due to U.S. laws, taxation and welfare policies passed by Republicans to favor corporations and the rich.

Do Trump's policies really help?

• GM investors don't think so. GM stock is still down 25% from its November high. Ford is down 17% from its November high. Caterpillar is down a whopping 28% from its November high. Those are three of the biggest U.S. manufacturers.
  
  Yes, that's right. Despite a partial recovery when Trump announced that his tariffs had just been a dump-and-pump scheme, major U.S. exporters of machinery are STILL being shunned by U.S. investors. Those investors, unlike pundits at Truth Social or wherever you get your news, do not think Trump is creating a boom economy!
• Rolls-Royce is the major European competitor for U.S. aircraft engine production. Are Rolls-Royce investors quivering in fear, because of the impending Trump "boom" for its US competitors? Let's look at the stock price.
  Rolls-Royce closed at £39 per share as recently as 28 Sept 2020. The price rose steadily but was still only £199 as recently as October 2023.
  It is now -- even after Trump admitted his was just a dump-and-pump -- £732 per share -- Yes, that's £732 with an S for Seven, up from £540 after Trump's election.
  Those Rolls-Royce investors are sure quivering over Trump's magical manufacturing boom, hunh?

@RVonse -- Have you ever told us where you get your "news" and opinions? Is it X, Truth Social, or OAN?

IIRC, RVonse gets his "news" from what he calls alternative media (read : discredited crackpots) like Paul Craig Roberts and Jimmy Dore.

 

[RVonse]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

Better solution than throwing the global trading order into chaos by making everything more expensive in the US while reducing US GDP and US prestige worldwide, destroying universities and most basic research, Doing nothing is a better solution.

Reducing debt is simple - keep spending growth at the rate of inflation. Tax revenues will grow at the rate of GDP (which grows at the rate of inflation + production).

The "Do nothing" solution is simply not sustainable. How does the US survive +$1 trillion deficits "as far as we can see"? You might even convince me that doing nothing is better for the short term than Trumps "shock and awe tariffs". But I fail to see how indexing tax revenues to GDP will even begin to get rid of a $1 trillion deficit. Under your scenario everyone's income tax exceeds even more than the tariff tax. I can see how people who manipulate money and speculate would favor your do nothing option, but most of the people in the rust belt having lost their good employment want their factories back again.

IMO the only viable long term solution at this point are the American people anyway. Somehow both sides need to get along well enough to recognize a huge problem and actually DO something about it. I'm hoping the Democrat successor to Trump keeps some of the less radical tariffs in place (as Biden did) so a general trend of less globalism and more on shore manufacturing continues. But more important than that, I'm hoping there are enough people left in this country (like my wife's parents) who always shunned debt and borrowing in favor of hard work. Are there still people like that left in the US?

Otherwise our country is in big trouble no matter which politician we have in office.

 

[ImGod]

My company just got it's first notifications for tariff pricing pass-throughs heading our way. We implemented a hiring freeze, budget freeze, and travel/conference freeze to trim expenses this year. Because we can't raise rates until the PUC and board get info on added expenses. Maybe we'll not raise rates, but add a temporary monthly tariff surcharge.

Something, something, more jobs in the US or such.

 

[Politesse]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

Better solution than throwing the global trading order into chaos by making everything more expensive in the US while reducing US GDP and US prestige worldwide, destroying universities and most basic research, Doing nothing is a better solution.

Reducing debt is simple - keep spending growth at the rate of inflation. Tax revenues will grow at the rate of GDP (which grows at the rate of inflation + production).

The "Do nothing" solution is simply not sustainable. How does the US survive +$1 trillion deficits "as far as we can see"? You might even convince me that doing nothing is better for the short term than Trumps "shock and awe tariffs". But I fail to see how indexing tax revenues to GDP will even begin to get rid of a $1 trillion deficit. Under your scenario everyone's income tax exceeds even more than the tariff tax. I can see how people who manipulate money and speculate would favor your do nothing option, but most of the people in the rust belt having lost their good employment want their factories back again.

IMO the only viable long term solution at this point are the American people anyway. Somehow both sides need to get along well enough to recognize a huge problem and actually DO something about it. I'm hoping the Democrat successor to Trump keeps some of the less radical tariffs in place (as Biden did) so a general trend of less globalism and more on shore manufacturing continues. But more important than that, I'm hoping there are enough people left in this country (like my wife's parents) who always shunned debt and borrowing in favor of hard work. Are there still people like that left in the US?

Otherwise our country is in big trouble no matter which politician we have in office.

What are "the people" supposed to do about federal tariff policy if we aren't meaningfully represented in or by the federal government? I mean, I can think of a few things, but most Americans regardless of party abhor extralegal collective action.

 

[ZiprHead]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

Better solution than throwing the global trading order into chaos by making everything more expensive in the US while reducing US GDP and US prestige worldwide, destroying universities and most basic research, Doing nothing is a better solution.

Reducing debt is simple - keep spending growth at the rate of inflation. Tax revenues will grow at the rate of GDP (which grows at the rate of inflation + production).

The "Do nothing" solution is simply not sustainable. How does the US survive +$1 trillion deficits "as far as we can see"? You might even convince me that doing nothing is better for the short term than Trumps "shock and awe tariffs". But I fail to see how indexing tax revenues to GDP will even begin to get rid of a $1 trillion deficit. Under your scenario everyone's income tax exceeds even more than the tariff tax. I can see how people who manipulate money and speculate would favor your do nothing option, but most of the people in the rust belt having lost their good employment want their factories back again.

IMO the only viable long term solution at this point are the American people anyway. Somehow both sides need to get along well enough to recognize a huge problem and actually DO something about it. I'm hoping the Democrat successor to Trump keeps some of the less radical tariffs in place (as Biden did) so a general trend of less globalism and more on shore manufacturing continues. But more important than that, I'm hoping there are enough people left in this country (like my wife's parents) who always shunned debt and borrowing in favor of hard work. Are there still people like that left in the US?

Otherwise our country is in big trouble no matter which politician we have in office.

Creating a recession if not a depression does nothing to pay off debt. It reduces tax revenue, which is one half of the debt creation ratio.

Personnally I don't think Trump gives a crap about the nation's debt. He's never been concerned about debt. When debt bothered him in the past he just didn't pay his bills and when challenged he would just say "sue me." He actually just tried to stop paying the bills but the courts ordered him to pay.

Just as has happened during his first term, the debt and deficits will again explode. His IRS cuts are already estimated to reduce revenue by a half trillion dollars. He wants another four trillion dollar tax cut for the rich. Anyone who believes Trump is the man to reduce the debt is only fooling themselves.

Personally, considering Trump's fealty to Putin and his desire to lessen the US' efforts to spread democracy, I believe Trump is actually trying to hurt this country.

 

[laughing dog]

There is absolutely no economic rationale or basic logic that ties the level of manufacturing with federal deficits or surpluses. Thee is no economic rationale or logic that ties heavy manufacutring dominance with reserve currency status.

Forget about Trump and his tariffs for a moment. What is your solution to get rid of excess debt and still keep US dominance? What is your better solution to reduce housing costs but also increase employment in low skilled high wage jobs?

Better solution than throwing the global trading order into chaos by making everything more expensive in the US while reducing US GDP and US prestige worldwide, destroying universities and most basic research, Doing nothing is a better solution.

Reducing debt is simple - keep spending growth at the rate of inflation. Tax revenues will grow at the rate of GDP (which grows at the rate of inflation + production).

The "Do nothing" solution is simply not sustainable. How does the US survive +$1 trillion deficits "as far as we can see"? You might even convince me that doing nothing is better for the short term than Trumps "shock and awe tariffs". But I fail to see how indexing tax revenues to GDP will even begin to get rid of a $1 trillion deficit. Under your scenario everyone's income tax exceeds even more than the tariff tax. I can see how people who manipulate money and speculate would favor your do nothing option, but most of the people in the rust belt having lost their good employment want their factories back again.

. Here is a simple example. Suppose spending is $2 trillion and revenue is $1 trillion, so there is a $1 trillion deficit. If spending grows by 3% in a year while revenue grows by 5%, then the deficit becomes 2*1.03 - 1*1.05 = $0.98 trillion dollars after one year. Arithmetic is simple: when spending grows at a smaller rate than tax revenue, then the gap between spending and revenue decreases. Now, one can argue about the discipline to continue such a regime or the speed at which the goal is attained, but the point is that it would magnitudes less damage to the US and to the World economy than Trump lunanomics.

IMO the only viable long term solution at this point are the American people anyway. Somehow both sides need to get along well enough to recognize a huge problem and actually DO something about it. I'm hoping the Democrat successor to Trump keeps some of the less radical tariffs in place (as Biden did) so a general trend of less globalism and more on shore manufacturing continues. But more important than that, I'm hoping there are enough people left in this country (like my wife's parents) who always shunned debt and borrowing in favor of hard work. Are there still people like that left in the US?

Incurring debt has nothing to do with working hard. Incurring debt is related to the willingness to defer consumption and luck.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not one who cites CATO too often. But this helps project the actual sentiment well. In fact, I remember writing a "humor" piece probably 20 years ago about doctors, lawyers, accountants coming back in large numbers to the factories from their white collar jobs.



Bring coal back!

Do you want to work in a coal mine?