What are your opinions about undocumented immigrants?

[TSwizzle]

But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

It's down to the government to sort it out and neither side seems willing.

That's bullshit. W had a plan. The GOP crashed it. It could have possibly been done in 2009/10, but the Democrats decided to slit their throats expanding health care coverage instead of widespread immigration reform which would have resulted in a likewise bloodbath.

That still looks like neither side is willing to sort it.

 

[Toni]

Yeah... the thing with prosecuting people that hire people the US is using to drive the economy seems tone deaf on the issue of there clearly in a demand for the labor.

I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you edit it for clarity?

People who want to punish hiring illegals are ignoring that there is a large demand for hiring illegals. The whole "we'll just prosecute them" is like Nancy Reagan's "Just say no".

America needs to stop denying its use of (and potentially addiction to) illegal immigration for labor.

It is extremely large scale.

It does need to be stopped.

It cannot be stopped by somehow stopping immigration, legal or otherwise.

You MUST go after the employers who hire undocumented immigrants. One good way is to insist and to enforce fair wages and benefits for ALL.

It isn't the employers.... it is all of us! We need to come to grips with this.

We have a shadow caste of workers in this country. The right-wing populists make illegals out as non-English speaking criminals. But they are generally building housing, cleaning up after our elderly, picking our crops. But until the right-wing populists stop making this a illegal criminals bullshit attack ad, we can't even address the labor issues.

The Reaganite conservatives won, and we are at each other's throats in competition to undercut every one else. Huzzah!

I don’t believe we must wait for others to stop doing wrong as a condition for us to do the right thing.

In fact, I believe we cannot wait to do the right thing those right things may be small scale at first but over time, attitudes and laws and social mores do change. If we do not step up, those changes will not be for the better.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

 

[bilby]

Banning people from doing anything that they have a strong economic incentive to do is always a recipe for disaster, whether it's selling alcohol, or other drugs, or labour.

Make it illegal, and it doesn't stop - it just becomes unregulated, and a goldmine for organized crime gangs.

Give people from Latin America a legal path to working in the USA, and they will take it.

Deny them that path, and they will come anyway, but the benefits of their labour will be siphoned off by "coyotes" and by unscrupulous employers.

 

[Axulus]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

If having border secrurity and deportations of those who sneak through illegally helps keep the fascists out of power, it is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, as long as it is combined with immigration reform bill and amnesty for those currently here. Many people flirt or outright embrace fascism if they perceive a bunch of people entering and staying in the country illegally.

 

[TomC]

Give people from Latin America a legal path to working in the USA, and they will take it.

There are other huge advantages to a rational and humane immigration system.

One is vetting. Refusing to admit vetted immigrants in favor of whoever can survive a trek through the desert is a great way to select for the worst immigrants.
Another is prioritizing them. I would much rather have the family man with a wife and baby than his miscreant friend with no ties or dependents. But if the guy running from an arrest warrant can get here as easily and without the encumbrance of a solid life, who do you think is going to come?
Tom

 

[steve_bank]

I think unrestricted flow of illegal aliens is insane.

California found a way to give Medicaid to illegals and they are out of money Same in Washington also a sanctuary state. Problems in education, unplanned for students who do not speak English.. Also a financial issue.

There was that town where Trump said illegals were eating cats or dogs. It turned out the town needed workers, so they e went south and recruited people to come legally.

That is the way to do it. The progressive sanctuary take all comers policy is creating a permanent underclass with no legal status and protections.

It is not the government that is creating prblems for illegals, it is the polices of unrestricted illegal immigration that is creatng the problems.

 

[Axulus]

I think unrestricted flow of illegal aliens is insane.

California found a way to give Medicaid to illegals and they are out of money Same in Washington also a sanctuary state. Problems in education, unplanned for students who do not speak English.. Also a financial issue.

There was that town where Trump said illegals were eating cats or dogs. It turned out the town needed workers, so they e went south and recruited people to come legally.

That is the way to do it. The progressive sanctuary take all comers policy is creating a permanent underclass with no legal status and protections.

It is not the government that is creating prblems for illegals, it is the polices of unrestricted illegal immigration that is creatng the problems.

There has never been unrestricted flow of illegal immigration.

 

[Elixir]

That still looks like neither side is willing to sort it.

Thinks always look dark to those with their heads up their butts.

 

[steve_bank]

Axulus, there has never been an unchecked flow of illegal imitates? That sounds like a progressive rationalization of illegal immigration.

Do you have any idea of the monthly peak border crossings during the last few years? There were caravns through Mexico on daily TV.

The estimated number of undocumented immigrants in the United States is around 11 million. This figure is generally considered to be about 3.3% of the total US population. While various sources like the Pew Research Center, the Center for Migration Studies (CMS), and the Migration Policy Institute (MPI) provide estimates, they generally fall within this 11 million range.

So Axulus, do you support illegal immigration ? That is a yes or no answer.

I grew up with and went to school with immigrant kids in the 50s 60s in the NYC area. Italian, Jewish, Irish, Greek, and Eastern European.

We need immigration. The question is how to do it. The kind of jobs in the 50s 60s an immigrant could earn a living at with little English and seduction are long gone.

I am no fan of Trump, but Trump is not the cause of fear among illegals. It is the fact that they came here legally. Congress is responsible for immigration. For over 20 years at least it has been recognized our immigration system has to be restructured. Yet through successive admonitions and congresses nothing has been done.

The ingrain statutes on political asylu is being abused. It was not meant to cover anyone who shows up at the border saying they are afraid of violence.

Yes or no, do you supprt ilegal immigration or do you surt a sensble imigation system that meets our needs?

Are we the welfare state for the wold? Progessives do not have the guts to make hard choices, tey can't say no.

 

[Axulus]

Axulus, there has never been an unchecked flow of illegal imitates? That sounds like a progressive rationalization of illegal immigration.

Do you have any idea of the monthly peak border crossings during the last few years? There were caravns through Mexico on daily TV.

The estimated number of undocumented immigrants in the United States is around 11 million. This figure is generally considered to be about 3.3% of the total US population. While various sources like the Pew Research Center, the Center for Migration Studies (CMS), and the Migration Policy Institute (MPI) provide estimates, they generally fall within this 11 million range.

So Axulus, do you support illegal immigration ? That is a yes or no answer.

I grew up with and went to school with immigrant kids in the 50s 60s in the NYC area. Italian, Jewish, Irish, Greek, and Eastern European.

We need immigration. The question is how to do it. The kind of jobs in the 50s 60s an immigrant could earn a living at with little English and seduction are long gone.

I am no fan of Trump, but Trump is not the cause of fear among illegals. It is the fact that they came here legally. Congress is responsible for immigration. For over 20 years at least it has been recognized our immigration system has to be restructured. Yet through successive admonitions and congresses nothing has been done.

The ingrain statutes on political asylu is being abused. It was not meant to cover anyone who shows up at the border saying they are afraid of violence.

Yes or no, do you supprt ilegal immigration or do you surt a sensble imigation system that meets our needs?

Are we the welfare state for the wold? Progessives do not have the guts to make hard choices, tey can't say no.

Do you know what the word "unrestricted" means? I posted the data on the million+ per year deported/expelled under Biden. Those caravans weren't just automatically allowed in. And, also as I posted, the ones who were allowed to stay were vetted and determined to have a legal claim to stay temporarily and go through our various processes to stay longer term. How is that in any way "unrestricted"?

It can, at best, be characterized as not sufficiently restricted depending on one's perspective.

Also as I posted previously, "undocumented" doesn't automatically mean they snuck in illegally. Far more of them are legally allowed to stay temporarily though our various laws (asylum, TPS, humanitarian parole).

11 million is very low on my list of things I worry about (this has been happening for decades). I only worry about it because other people are electing fascists in part due to it.

I already posted my immigration plan a few posts ago, go review it if you want my position.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Marxist Labor theory, and Labor Unions = anti-immigrant bias
(which helped Trump win in 2016 and 2024)


Immigrant labor is good for the economy = Simple basic supply & demand economics. More competition is always better for consumers.

But this basic fact of economics contradicts the popular Left-Wing Progressive Economic theories which insist that anything putting downward pressure on wages has to be evil, because wages must always increase no matter what, no matter how uncompetitive and inefficient the workers might be.

And so even Progressives have a deep hate or fear of immigrants, who might compete with domestic workers. This, plus their innate HATE for employers generally, has prevented them from helping employers and immigrant job-seekers toward more jobs and employment, which would lead to more improvement in production for the benefit of consumers (= everyone).

Since Progressives favor the Labor Establishment above the interests of the nation (= ALL the consumers), they too have refused to take serious steps toward more acceptance of immigrant workers. And so the U.S. immigration system is chaotic and immigrant workers have difficulty getting into the jobs where they are needed, and also getting settled into a stable relationship of employment in the U.S., to the detriment of the U.S. generally (of the whole population = the consumers). So much damage we thus suffer as a result of the economic Marxist and Labor theories which put wages (of the most politically powerful wage-earner classes) above the national interest.

 

[laughing dog]

I thought Progressives were for open borders.

 

[ZiprHead]

I thought Progressives were for open borders.

I thought Libertarians that post on secular message boards were generally stupid. Nothing in this thread has done anything to change my mind.

 

[Elixir]

Yes or no, do you supprt ilegal immigration or do you surt a sensble imigation system that meets our needs?

WUT?
Do you support poverty, or a sensible economic system that makes everyone a billionaire?

 

[Politesse]

I thought Progressives were for open borders.

"Open borders" is a mythical position not actually held by anyone of consequence.

 

[aupmanyav]

OP: "What are your opinions about undocumented immigrants?"
If the nation to which they have migrated does not want them, they should be repatriated.
India has tens of millions undocumented Bangladeshi migrants.

If the US does not want undocumented Indian migrants, we have no problem with that. Send them back.

 

[Toni]

I am not informed enough to make intelligent decisions on how to change our immigration law, but there are some good ideas in this thread in my opinion.

My basic thoughts still hold; I can't bring myself to condemn people who have risked everything just to escape the horrors in their home country. The idea of sending them back when the only thing they have done is come here for freedom just appalls me.

Ruth

If having border secrurity and deportations of those who sneak through illegally helps keep the fascists out of power, it is a sacrifice I'm willing to make, as long as it is combined with immigration reform bill and amnesty for those currently here. Many people flirt or outright embrace fascism if they perceive a bunch of people entering and staying in the country illegally.

We’ve always had border security.
We’ve always had people elude security.
We’ve always had people who fear what or rather who is ‘different,’ ‘other.’
We’ve always had people who blame those they see as ‘other’ for whatever societal ills that they find disturbing.

Gay people? Trans people? Black people? Brown people? People with different languages, accents, religions? No religion?

People flirt with fascism as a response to fear. People embrace fascism as a response to fear.

Some people exploit those fears for their own profit. They may embrace whatever ism it is that a segment of the population finds most ‘comforting’ in the face of what they find most disturbing

Some people react to fear or confusion or disorder by embracing or trying to inflict a strict sense of order to prevent/punish what they find disturbing. Clamping down, the harder the better seems to be the best way to restore and maintain order.

If we truly want to limit undocumented people or those overstaying their visas we need to embrace helping other nations whose people flee in search of ‘a better life’ whatever that means to them. Political and economic stability are quite high on the list. So is the freedom to express oneself. To live as one’s true self.

Instead in the US and from what I can tell, some other nations, we use immigrants, documented and otherwise, as scapegoats and distractions. If we didn’t rile up some portion of the population periodically, people might start to look too closely at exactly why immigrants are so desirable as workers: they tolerate lower wages, longer hours and worse/more dangerous or dirty work conditions. And it is cheaper and more profitable to employ such workers than it is to have a better workplace with better pay, benefits, working conditions.

People might start to look at who profits from an easily exploitable and easily disposable workforce that it is easy to see as being less than. And they might have to look in the mirror and see how they profit from cheaper goods and services at the hands of those they dare to despise.

 

[bilby]

Marxist Labor theory, and Labor Unions = anti-immigrant bias
(which helped Trump win in 2016 and 2024)

OK.

This Marxist Labor theory, is it in the room with us right now?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Marxist Labor theory, and Labor Unions = anti-immigrant bias
(which helped Trump win in 2016 and 2024)


Immigrant labor is good for the economy = Simple basic supply & demand economics. More competition is always better for consumers.

But this basic fact of economics contradicts the popular Left-Wing Progressive Economic theories which insist that anything putting downward pressure on wages has to be evil, because wages must always increase no matter what, no matter how uncompetitive and inefficient the workers might be.

And so even Progressives have a deep hate or fear of immigrants, who might compete with domestic workers. This, plus their innate HATE for employers generally, has prevented them from helping employers and immigrant job-seekers toward more jobs and employment, which would lead to more improvement in production for the benefit of consumers (= everyone).

Since Progressives favor the Labor Establishment above the interests of the nation (= ALL the consumers), they too have refused to take serious steps toward more acceptance of immigrant workers. And so the U.S. immigration system is chaotic and immigrant workers have difficulty getting into the jobs where they are needed, and also getting settled into a stable relationship of employment in the U.S., to the detriment of the U.S. generally (of the whole population = the consumers). So much damage we thus suffer as a result of the economic Marxist and Labor theories which put wages (of the most politically powerful wage-earner classes) above the national interest.

"Competition good." What about when competition (pressure on profits) brings about poor quality service and products or unsafe products and practices? What about when technology brings about not just planned obsolescence but intentional product design (think about the ergonomics of a thing) that leaves the consumer less than completely satisfied with that product? What about tacit collusion, market signaling, and price leadership? Can you wedge these practices in somewhere?

"Hate of employers." What happens when the left-wing progressive is the employer? When you find such a thing actually exists, do you explode?

What if immigration fell under the scope of some federal agency that could act independently satisfying the nation's employment needs but not allowing unfettered immigration that would drive the scarcity of workers so far below zero that the individual worker is stripped of their intrinsic value, their dignity as a human being?
See, if you have for your needs a seemingly endless supply of other human beings to do a thing, those humans lose their value, don't they?
Homework
Can you think of examples of where such a thing might be occurring today?
You may ask barbos for assistance.