Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[bilby]

Hamas supporters like the one's on this thread.
Tom

There are no Hamas supporters on this thread. Your infantile idea that opposing Israeli crimes implies support of Hamas crimes is both illogical and insulting, and you seriously need to grow the fuck out of it.

It's not a matter of opposing Israeli actions (note that almost never are "crimes" demonstrated, most things simply fall under war is hell), but taking Hamas propaganda as unquestionably true.

Nobody in this thread is taking Hamas propaganda as unquestionably true.

Other reasons for not taking your words as unquestionably true are available.

 

[bilby]

But note that famine does provide fair birth control

Note that that depends on an unfair use of the word "fair".

Also note that it is as accurate and medically sound as GOP antiabortionist claims that pregnancy doesn't arise from "legitimate rape".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

You have it exactly backwards. I'm not addressing this claim, but rather what has come before.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They try to hide it, most sources are Arabic and they are pointed out by Jewish sources so you won't like them. But:

Senior Hamas official calls on members of Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews | Christians United for Israel

A senior Hamas official has urged members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world. Fathi Hammad, a member of Hamas’s politburo who is considered a hard-liner and […]

cufi.org

URL says enough. They try to distance from what he says, but note that they haven't removed him. Thus they clearly do not have any substantial disagreement with his words.

Please stop telling me what I will like or not. The report is troubling if accurate. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

You say "troubling if accurate"--what is there to suggest it's not accurate? That's a Christian source, no dog in the fight.

However, Hamas is mostly comprised of Gazans, and since Hamas members clearly takes steps to survive, it is bleeding obvious that Hamas cares about Gazans. They may not value Gazans who are not members of Hamas as much as those who are members of Hamas, but that does not require not caring at all.

It is bleeding obvious that you are wrong. Hamas is controlled by Iran, not Gaza. And note "but that does not require not caring at all"--but neither does it preclude it.

Your third sentence contradicts the first one. But nothing you wrote addressed my argument - that Hamas cares enough about Gazans because Hamas is populated with Gazans.

You say they contradict each other but give no indication of where the supposed contradiction is. You say "third sentence" while highlighting two sentences.

If you mean the last part that you didn't highlight--my first sentence is simply repeating your words back. The third is simply saying that your "evidence" proves nothing because it's based on a false premise.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because transparency? Israel has antisemitic journalists crawling up their asses if they so much as sneeze. Ready to twist the truth to reveal the greedy and cruel Jew to the world. They have to be upfront about everything.

Due to the extreme pro-Muslim bias of the propaganda war, Hamas can lie through their teeth with zero repurcusions, while Israel can't. So they need to be open and transparent.

So you have no answer.

Where has Hamas been called on a lie by a major news organization?

JFC! They literally buried ambulances along with people bound and shot in the head.

You have it exactly backwards. I'm not addressing this claim, but rather what has come before.

Well thank goodness you aren't whitewashing the hiding of a terrible mistake that led to the deaths of people... making it look like it was actually covering up a criminal act.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And again, not one link was given that day.

If you want to be taken seriously, post links to your sources and stop making shit up.

Not one link was needed (although one was present) as I was showing that your link doesn't actually mean what you think it means.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

WTF? When images from Gaza do appear, you claim they are staged.

They very often are. But that absence of them is very telling.

We have a baby with a formula problem--the others in the picture don't look like the baby. Like the kid before they paraded in front of the cameras they find someone with medical issues and pretend they are evidence of famine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

They why ask for them?

From the video reports I have seen, it isn't Africa grade famine, but Jebus, where the fuck is your humanity? The children are likely hungry and underfed. Yes, Hamas is a major reason for this. Does that justify Israel making it even worse?

By the reports it should be worse than Africa, yet they have to resort to medical cases to find people to parade in front of the camera.

And your argument about "humanity" is arguing for the side you believe is starving the children.

The reality is Israel is trying to get the food to the people rather than to Hamas.

Israel to launch new Gaza aid distribution plan to bypass Hamas

Three designated distribution centers are to be established in Rafah, with each Gaza family being able to collect a weekly allotment. The distribution process is to be overseen by vetted NGOs and private U.S. contractors.

www.jns.org

But that's intolerable to Hamas because they rely on stealing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am going on reports from the BBC , the UN, and other reputable news sources.

For example In Private, Some Israel Officers is on the brink of starvation.

But Israeli military officers who monitor humanitarian conditions in Gaza have warned their commanders in recent days that unless the blockade is lifted quickly, many areas of the enclave will likely run out of enough food to meet minimum daily nutritional needs, according to the defense officials. They spoke on the condition of anonymity to share sensitive details.

Before there is starvation, there is malnutrition and acute malnutrition (which has long term effects on the babies, the very young and the old).

According to the WHO

Since the aid blockade began on 2 March, 57 children have reportedly died from the effects of malnutrition, according to the Ministry of Health.

If the situation persists, nearly 71,000 children under the age of five are expected to be acutely malnourished over the next 11 months.

Gaza: 57 children reported dead from malnutrition, says WHO
You are basing your replies on stuff you pull out of your ass.

The UN is not remotely a reliable news source.

And the numbers do not pass the laugh test. If there's no source of food the problem would be far, far worse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you want to end the violence and ethnic cleansing, get rid of the Muslim terrorists who run Gaza. That's not just Hamas, that's the Gazans Who Matter. The one's who keep Hamas in power. Also Hamas' international supporters, they are yet more Muslims who don't care about the little people in Gaza.
Tom

You keep babbling the mantra. No one knows how to get rid of the terrorists. Nothing seems to be effectively working. Even destroying the infrastructure, killing thousands of innocents, withholding food and supplies isn't working.

So we, anyone stops fighting, defending ourselves against terrorists? Is that you are saying?

I responded to getting rid of terrorists, not failing to defend oneself. Nothing I wrote could reasonably interpreted to imply that. So no.

Wrong goal.

The geopolitical reality is that nothing can be done to get rid of them. Terrorists with an untouchable base of support are never defeated. Thus the objective should be to minimize the harm they cause.

You need to take that up with the Israeli gov't, not me. You know, the one engaging in ethnic cleansing that you defend.

You are taking as fact something which has not remotely been established.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

Please explain your reasoning here. It's not like the people really have a choice, they are involuntary human shields. Thus there is nothing remotely incompatible between "baby" and "human shield".

But to admit that someone can be in both groups is to admit the evil that is Hamas.

So bad, they are making others commit crimes against humanity.

I suggest doing some more reading on the reality of war. This is not a crime against humanity.

 

[bilby]

As I said, morally bankrupt. If person A threatens the life of person B, then person B is not justified in killing person C as a response.

I realise that @Loren Pechtel might not agree with this.

So I want to bring his attention to someone who does, and who he might be less inclined to dismiss summarily:

In practice you end up discriminating against completely innocent individuals, not against those who did wrong.

Rights are something individuals possess. Not groups.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Look at our legal systems.

Why?

You have a system that hobbles victims, requiring them to die rather than defending themselves.

No, we don't.

We have a more realistic standard: deadly force is deadly force. It does not have graduations. Nor does it require identifying specific threats--the actions of a group fall upon the entire group.

That's not "realistic", it's just "morally bankrupt".

We see this occasionally with protesters attacking vehicles--if a group comes after a car and one person does something that meets the deadly force threshold the driver is legally justified in flooring it even if other members of the group are in the way, even if the other members did not intend violence.

As I said, morally bankrupt. If person A threatens the life of person B, then person B is not justified in killing person C as a response.

Calling it morally bankrupt doesn't make it so. They are acting together, the defender is only required to establish that the group poses a deadly threat, not that every member within the group does. The latter is likely an impossible burden. As I said, requiring the victims to die--something I consider morally bankrupt. Innocents do not get put in danger from this, it's only wrongdoers who didn't realize what degree of wrong was intended.

Likewise, groups of robbers--one pulls a weapon, defenders may take action against anyone in the group.

Again, morally bankrupt.

But to return to my first point:

1) Look at our legal systems.

Why? What do the legal systems of my jurisdiction, or yours, have to do with those of either Israel or of Gaza?

The fact remains:

You were treating it as a criminal matter, I was addressing how our legal systems respond.

The use of excessive force in response to a crime is itself a crime.

And to the extent that it is not, the law is no longer morally justifiable. That's what "excessive" means.

Circular definition.

Force is excessive when you respond with deadly force to a non-deadly threat, and force is excessive when you continue to use force once the threat is unquestionably removed, and force is excessive when you had a less forceful option that provides a certainty of safety. Note that this last one is a burden that is very rarely reached as in real situations the defender almost always takes the lesser option in that case.

More than a thousand Israelis are dead. Clearly the deadly threat threshold was crossed.

Has the threat been unquestionably removed? Unquestionably not, as hostages remain.

Therefore the force is not excessive.

 

[laughing dog]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

Please explain your reasoning here. It's not like the people really have a choice, they are involuntary human shields. Thus there is nothing remotely incompatible between "baby" and "human shield".

There is nothing incompatible between "sociopath" and "Israeli apologist". But neither that nor your comment is relevant.

Look, if you want to change the focus from the tragedy of babies suffering from acute malnutrition due to an Israeli food blockade that reflects on you, not the reality.

You are a supporter of religious terrorists. I don't know how you can justify that to yourself!
Tom

I don’t support terrorists of any sort.

That delicious irony of that slander overshadows its vileness.

Explain your repeated acceptance of Hamas propaganda without question.

I cannot explain your delusions or their origins. I did appreciate the irony of your response.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel restricts access to Gaza.

Gazans are still holding kidnapped victims. They launched a missile barrage last month.

My text was maybe a bit too restricted to the quoted text above it. I was referring to why images of starving children aren't more prevalent, and the answer was Israel was restricting access to the press to Gaza.

Doesn't mean Hamas can't provide images. Nothing's stopping that--except clearly they don't have suitable individuals to take pictures of.

They why ask for them?

From the video reports I have seen, it isn't Africa grade famine, but Jebus, where the fuck is your humanity? The children are likely hungry and underfed. Yes, Hamas is a major reason for this. Does that justify Israel making it even worse?

By the reports it should be worse than Africa, yet they have to resort to medical cases to find people to parade in front of the camera.

And your argument about "humanity" is arguing for the side you believe is starving the children.

Hamas still has the hostages. None of this shit is working, it is only making things worse. I want the damn hostages released. I don't want hungry children. I want Hamas to disappear. I want this madness to end. The path to that is through Iran.

But you have become normalized to the violence, to the point you are willing to justify punishing en masse an entire population for the acts of a finite number of people in said population. You are so certain that violence is a fait accompli that you will justify nearly any action. You are literally embracing Jon Anderson's lyrics "Kill or be killing, faster sins correct the flow".

 

[laughing dog]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

It takes a bizarre mindset to call the current situation in Gaza a ceasefire.

It was a mutually accepted ceasefire until Israel violated it. Do you have any evidence Hamas is violating the terms of the ceasefire?

Last I recall Hamas broke the ceasefire by not complying with their side of the agreement.

Your recollection is faulty: Why Israel broke its fragile truce in Gaza and is promising more strikes is just one of many reports.

Do you think that the Gazans who launched the missiles at Israel last month gave a rats ass about some hungry kids? Or do you think that they have more important things to do, like keep their grip on power?
Tom

Clearly they don’t, but how does that justify causing acute malnutrition among the children in Gaza.

1) Does the right formula even exist? The reality is that there are some who will die of malnutrition with the best of medical care.

Acute malnutrition is a recognized medical condition - Acute Malnutrition in Children: Pathophysiology, Clinical Effects and Treatment

2) Is there truly none in Gaza, or is it sitting in Hamas storage somewhere so she will starve for the cameras?

I have no idea what that word salad means.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But note that famine does provide fair birth control

Note that that depends on an unfair use of the word "fair".

Also note that it is as accurate and medically sound as GOP antiabortionist claims that pregnancy doesn't arise from "legitimate rape".

What's inaccurate about it? The exact point where it shuts down is variable but the fact that it does isn't in question. Elite female athletes often stop menstruating, and no cycle, no baby.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I said, morally bankrupt. If person A threatens the life of person B, then person B is not justified in killing person C as a response.

I realise that @Loren Pechtel might not agree with this.

So I want to bring his attention to someone who does, and who he might be less inclined to dismiss summarily:

In practice you end up discriminating against completely innocent individuals, not against those who did wrong.

Rights are something individuals possess. Not groups.

You misunderstand. Saying rights are for the individual doesn't mean that those who choose to be a group are not connected. The mob chose to attack the car. Nothing makes you go along with the mob. By your choice you committed a wrong, unaware of how wrong it would actually be.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It takes a peculiar mindset to call the young sufferers of acute malnutrition caused by the blockade of food in a ceasefire “human shields”.

It takes a bizarre mindset to call the current situation in Gaza a ceasefire.

It was a mutually accepted ceasefire until Israel violated it. Do you have any evidence Hamas is violating the terms of the ceasefire?

Last I recall Hamas broke the ceasefire by not complying with their side of the agreement.

Your recollection is faulty: Why Israel broke its fragile truce in Gaza and is promising more strikes is just one of many reports.

Very deceptive but we can see the truth:

Both Israel and the Trump administration have blamed Hamas for the resumption of hostilities, citing the militant group's refusal to meet Israel's demand to release more hostages in return for the resumption of talks. The first phase of that deal, which had Hamas release 25 living hostages and the bodies of eight in exchange for around 1,800 of Palestinian prisoners, ended March 1.

The second phase was set to kick in 16 days later and would have included the exchange of all the remaining hostages and the establishment of a permanent ceasefire.

And how is this Israel breaking it?? Note the timeline. The 16 days came and went, Hamas didn't follow through. Exactly what I said.

Do you think that the Gazans who launched the missiles at Israel last month gave a rats ass about some hungry kids? Or do you think that they have more important things to do, like keep their grip on power?
Tom

Clearly they don’t, but how does that justify causing acute malnutrition among the children in Gaza.

1) Does the right formula even exist? The reality is that there are some who will die of malnutrition with the best of medical care.

Acute malnutrition is a recognized medical condition - Acute Malnutrition in Children: Pathophysiology, Clinical Effects and Treatment

I'm not denying the baby is malnourished. I'm saying it has not been established that there's anything Israel could have done to change that. There isn't always an answer.

https://www.nestlenutritionstore.com/vivonexr-plus.html

Please note items #3 and #4 in the ingredients list. What of you are anaphylactic to either of these? #4 comes through unchanged from what's in nature.

2) Is there truly none in Gaza, or is it sitting in Hamas storage somewhere so she will starve for the cameras?

I have no idea what that word salad means.

Because you don't want to. Hamas was stealing much of the aid that came in. There very well might be formula somewhere but Hamas is not letting her have it.

 

[Arctish]

And again, not one link was given that day.

If you want to be taken seriously, post links to your sources and stop making shit up.

Not one link was needed (although one was present) as I was showing that your link doesn't actually mean what you think it means.

Sources of information that support claims being made are always needed.

Links to those sources are always needed and should immediately be provided when other posters ask for them.

Back up your claims, Loren. Link to your sources.

Also, which link of mine "doesn't actually mean" what I think it means? Be specific.