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Dem Post Mortem

The more I think about it, the more I think Biden’s defeat of “Don the Con” was the aberration. Trump is the ultimate scam artist whose success proves P.T. Barnum’s observation if “There’s a sucker born every minute and two to take him.”
 
Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is more well-liked than President Donald Trump, former President Joe Biden, and former Vice President Kamala Harris, according to a new poll.

Despite the fact that Ocasio-Cortez can be polarizing even within her own party, she is still more popular than most currently active U.S. politicians, Newsweek reports.

Data released on Friday by data intelligence company AtlasIntel found that Ocasio-Cortez ranked third most popular on its survey of political popularity, and she was one of only three leaders with a net positive image.

The congresswoman was beat only by former President Barack Obama and his wife, former First Lady Michelle Obama.

Tell me again how the Democrats need to move further to the right.
 
Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is more well-liked than President Donald Trump, former President Joe Biden, and former Vice President Kamala Harris, according to a new poll.

Despite the fact that Ocasio-Cortez can be polarizing even within her own party, she is still more popular than most currently active U.S. politicians, Newsweek reports.

Data released on Friday by data intelligence company AtlasIntel found that Ocasio-Cortez ranked third most popular on its survey of political popularity, and she was one of only three leaders with a net positive image.

The congresswoman was beat only by former President Barack Obama and his wife, former First Lady Michelle Obama.

Tell me again how the Democrats need to move further to the right.

Biden is just too old. But I'd vote for AOC over Biden or Harris. I'd vote for my dog John Henry, a German Shepard, over Trump. John Henry is smart for a dog, but is easily distracted by squirrels.
 
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The country consists of over 300 million people with varying desires, needs, hopes, and dreams
And the world consists of over 7 billion.

That doesn't act as a justification for selecting desires, hopes, and dreams that harm, or for tolerating that harm because it's happening to someone else.

You are as much of a casual fascist as Emily Lake and yes YOU are a fascist too, just a weaker and wimpier sort that I somehow have LESS respect for than the obvious Nazi, because at least the obvious Nazi doesn't hide their support for the nazification process behind self-unaware platitudes that they are only *leaning* right rather than running there.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is more well-liked than President Donald Trump, former President Joe Biden, and former Vice President Kamala Harris, according to a new poll.

Despite the fact that Ocasio-Cortez can be polarizing even within her own party, she is still more popular than most currently active U.S. politicians, Newsweek reports.

Data released on Friday by data intelligence company AtlasIntel found that Ocasio-Cortez ranked third most popular on its survey of political popularity, and she was one of only three leaders with a net positive image.

The congresswoman was beat only by former President Barack Obama and his wife, former First Lady Michelle Obama.

Tell me again how the Democrats need to move further to the right.
So, the thing is, fascism doesn't look like what most people think it looks like.

Most fascism isn't what they might imagine of ICE/Luftwaffe in jackboots and trains and Nazi officers, but that's not actually fascism. Well, it is, but not the bulk of it, and fascism works only in spite of that, because that part is easy for most to hate.

Fascism is, by in large, people trading leftward thoughts for "keeping the trains running on time", on procedure and "decorum" and playing nice and capitulation in fucking advance.

It is caused not in the image of the strength of the enemy but the weakness of goodness.


All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
 
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They were more responsible for giving us Trump compared to those who drank the Trump Kool-Aide.
This is exactly what I disagree with you about, and now you have repeated it once again in plain English. No, I don't agree, and no, I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent you. You believe an informed crime of inaction is more serious than a misinformed crime of action, and I do not agree. Being deceived by social media is not some magical cop-out that absolves a person of moral accountability for their actions. It simply is not. I do not agree. These are adults and citizens, and social media is not going away no matter how much we might wish it. Ultimately, every citozen must make an informed vote, whatever it takes to get there. If they don't, they deserve to be remembered poorly.
Ok, we can disagree, but you never answered the question regarding meeting any Trump voters and realizing they were victims of a cult. Maybe if you had met and talked to some of these people personally and even tried to reason with them, you would understand things better.

My point was that the people who didn't vote knew better while the Trump voters were being manipulated by a man who's only talent was creating a cult, They didn't know or understand the facts. They weren't all capable of making an informed decision. The non voters were smarter and should have voted. Trump manipulated people into believing he would lower grocery prices on day one, protect the border from criminals, end the war in Gaza on day one and other bullshit.

Oh well. It's too late now so I don't know why we are still wasting our time when we should be trying to encourage people to vote and stop watching Newsmax, Fox or reading The Daily Mail.
During Trump 1.0, I really clung to the idea—and reality that many/most of the Trump supporters I know and/or am related to were manipulated by press, ie in a cult or cult like association (GOP). Many/most of these people are decent, hardworking law abiding people who are generous and kind to those they know and to strangers as well.

But the reality is that many of these same people are exactly like my mother’s stepfather: in many ways a kind and even generous man, within the limits of his means to be generous and kind. He did not have much money but always made a large donation of apples from his orchard to the local schools; he raised at least one foster child and afaik, treated my mother and her siblings like his own kids, even though he married my widowed grandmother when her kids were 16-24 yo. He certainly acted like a grandfather to me and my siblings. BUT: my feelings fir him changed dramatically when I saw him behave with needless cruelty towards a black man and his young son in what could only be considered dared a power play when I was about 6 yo, followed by some extremely nasty and horrific comments he made about a black biy who was in my first grade class ( in other words, another 6 yo) solely because he was black. I did not fully understand what he was trying to warn me about until I was nearly an adult ( basically he was warning me that this child might try to rape me—at 6 yo!). Anyway, while I always loved him, I never wanted to be around him beyond the brief and mandatory hugs hello and good bye. Years later, well over a decade after his death, we learned he had been in the Klan. I had seen his ugly, disgusting racism up close—the Kan membership made complete sense, even though my siblings and I were all horrified.

Oh, afaik, I do not know any actual members of the KKK or similar but sympathizers? Probably.

The terrible truth is that people who seem very nice and kind and generous can be horrifically racist, sexist, homophobic—even as they sit in church pews, tithe weekly, give generously to the poor. Frankly I quit going to church because of the bigotry. Of course plenty of non-church goers are just as racist, sexist, homophobic as those sitting in pews every Sunday.

Whatever else is going on in their lives, there is a core truth to the Trump supporters: they support him because he gives voice to their fears and their bigotries. They watch Fux and NewsMax because those networks reinforce their fears and bigotries.

They are bigots, racists and homophobes and sexist and they embrace Trump, NewsMax and Fox because they make them feel less ashamed and even proud of their bigotries. They are willing to harm many many many people for generations because they are fearful bigots.

I am currently struggling very hard to reconcile this with the good qualities I know some of my relatives and friends/former friends hold, beliefs I was able to ignore before.

I cannot ignore it any more and I will not pretend that the bigotries are only because they watch Fox.

No.

They watch Fox because it lets them feel good about their bigotries. They are unhappy with how their lives have turned out—and they want to punish those whose lives seem
better or easier.

And all of them are incredibly lonely and isolated.

They think Dems or libs are responsible for the bad things in their lives instead of looking at the choices they’ve made and looking at how the power structure today gives so much power with so little accountability to corporations and businesses and the wealthy.

I find it incredibly painful to acknowledge that they are worse than my father, with whom I went toe to toe since I was 14.

I am struggling so hard to see the good and to ignore the bad in a way that I’ve never felt before. Yes, I’m ending friendships and maintaining contact with some relatives only because they are relatives.

Because in every way that is real, they prefer fascism to democracy. They prefer ignorance to cold, hard truth. Because they feel so small that the only way they can feel less bad is by causing others pain.
 
There are numerous articles online written by psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists and other professionals that give detailed information as to why and how so many people have been so easily manipulated into Trump's cult. I posted one in another thread but I doubt anyone bothered to read it. It went into a lot of detail explaining not only Trump's mental illnesses, but how his behavior was contagious. I read one earlier today that discussed that some people feel helpless, left out and in need of a father figure and a need to feel like they belong etc. The psychiatrist in the other article compared Trump to a gang leader. That makes some sense as young men who feel left out are often manipulated into joining dangerous gangs to earn a sense of belonging, as crazy as that is. These people are easily drawn into cults like the one that Trump has created. I'm not claiming they have no faults as they are each individuals when they are outside of the cult, and none of us perfect, but if some of you want to understand how otherwise, seemingly decent people voted for Trump, you can do some research and get a better understanding of how this happened and how it's happened before in other countries in different times. It's complicated.

It's also hard for people to come to terms with the fact that they've drank the Kool-Aide so they often continue to deny the negative, harmful aspects of their cult leader. I try not to judge people. I try to understand how they ended up the way they did, especially since i don't think we have free will or if we do, it's very limited. I doubt I could forgive Trump for what he's doing to the country, while at the same time, i understand he's a seriously mentally ill man who has little or no control over his behavior, especially since his symptoms of dementia are increasing. The thing we need to do is find ways to overcome. him, not blame the people who support him. Some can be influenced in positive ways, but so far, we haven't found all the answers to that problem.
 
The thing we need to do is find ways to overcome. him, not blame the people who support him. Some can be influenced in positive ways, but so far, we haven't found all the answers to that problem.

Here's a novel idea, try nominating viable candidates with sound policies rather than dopey chicks that run on vibes.

Vance 2028 it is.
 
Reps have to look at the whole picture. Not "wouldn't it be nice to have this shiny new thing" but look at advantages and disadvantages of policies, including how much they would cost. That's why AOC et al were so busy promoting MMT (either "Modern Monetary Theory" or "Magic Money Tree") that posited that since US debt is denominated in US dollars, the federal government can just spend the $60-100T of how much AOC's Green New Deal would cost by making the money printer go brrrr.
Are you insane? After the current Republican budget came out with huge record breaking deficits and your criticizing AOC debt spending I can no longer take you seriously. You are most obviously highly partisan. You can try to deny it but your silence about the Republicans speaks volumes.
 
The country consists of over 300 million people with varying desires, needs, hopes, and dreams
And the world consists of over 7 billion.

That doesn't act as a justification for selecting desires, hopes, and dreams that harm, or for tolerating that harm because it's happening to someone else.

You are as much of a casual fascist as Emily Lake and yes YOU are a fascist too, just a weaker and wimpier sort that I somehow have LESS respect for than the obvious Nazi, because at least the obvious Nazi doesn't hide their support for the nazification process behind self-unaware platitudes that they are only *leaning* right rather than running there.
You are using the word "fascist", but I don't think you understand what the word means. You are also using words, you are calling people names from up high on a self-constructed pedestal.

You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible. The people that wouldn't vote for Clinton or Harris are responsible. You think Biden was a leftist? He was about along side Clinton and Harris. Those people enabled the appointments of Roberts, Alito, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett.
Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is more well-liked than President Donald Trump, former President Joe Biden, and former Vice President Kamala Harris, according to a new poll.

Despite the fact that Ocasio-Cortez can be polarizing even within her own party, she is still more popular than most currently active U.S. politicians, Newsweek reports.

Data released on Friday by data intelligence company AtlasIntel found that Ocasio-Cortez ranked third most popular on its survey of political popularity, and she was one of only three leaders with a net positive image.

The congresswoman was beat only by former President Barack Obama and his wife, former First Lady Michelle Obama.

Tell me again how the Democrats need to move further to the right.
So, the thing is, fascism doesn't look like what most people think it looks like.

Most fascism isn't what they might imagine of ICE/Luftwaffe in jackboots and trains and Nazi officers, but that's not actually fascism. Well, it is, but not the bulk of it, and fascism works only in spite of that, because that part is easy for most to hate.

Fascism is, by in large, people trading leftward thoughts for "keeping the trains running on time", on procedure and "decorum" and playing nice and capitulation in fucking advance.
Yeah... like I said above about "fascism".
 
You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.
Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!
W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.
No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to a Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy. As thousands did in Florida.

But no, it's not the conservatives' fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!
 
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You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.
Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!
W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.
No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy.

But no, it's not the conservatives fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!
?? Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. In that election, Nader received 86,421 votes. According to exit polls, 47 percent of Nader voters would have voted for Gore, 21 percent for bush, the rest would have stayed home.
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
I don't think the people who support those things are the same people who do not support paying for them.

Republicans are very good at antitax messaging. For example, they keep portraying the tax breaks for the wealthy as a tax break for the little guys And their supporters generally believe them.
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
Yeah, I meant "support" as in "government should spend the money to do it".
But they do support the idea of the programs, which is what Ziprhead was indicating. The people have been conditioned to think all of this stuff can be had for nothing.
Please see the bolding I added.
 
You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.
Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!
W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.
No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy.

But no, it's not the conservatives fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!
?? Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. In that election, Nader received 86,421 votes. According to exit polls, 47 percent of Nader voters would have voted for Gore, 21 percent for bush, the rest would have stayed home.
I see you are also bad at math.

Yes. 86,000 people voted for Nader. Nearly 3 million voted for Bush.

But oh, it's not their fault. Oh, those poor oppressed Republicans. They never do anything wrong, poor babies, they just wanted to commit mass murder. Well to have their grandkids commit mass murder for them. Is that so wrong?
 
You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.
Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!
W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.
No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.
*sigh*
It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to a Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all.
Fuck that shit. I'm progressive, I just recognize the limitations. To quote an American socialist in the early turn of the 20th century, 'there is an apparent flaw in the human conscience that makes our cause a pathetic joke' (as best I can remember).
But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy.
Wha?
Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy. As thousands did in Florida.
Nearly 100,000 thousand in Florida did. We have no idea what that loss cost America. It is very possible that a Gore victory prevents 9/11 from happening, as Richard Clarke isn't marginalized in a Gore Admin. No Iraq War, no failed Afghan whatever the fuck we want to call it. The economy does go to shit in 2008 and the GOP wins, but the pedestal standing "progressives" who want to send a message, helped detour America down a different path.
Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!
You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?
 
Sorry, but you're in a left wing echo chamber. You think people want the liberal brand of progress.
What makes you think they don't?

The people overwhelmingly support Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, universal child care, and free higher education. And they want to raise the taxes on the rich to pay for it.
You just showed that you're in an echo chamber. None of those are overwhelmingly supported.
That isn't accurate though. People generally support the things the Democrats want to push forward. The people, however, do not support paying for it. And there is lies the American Voter Paradox.
I don't think the people who support those things are the same people who do not support paying for them.

Republicans are very good at antitax messaging. For example, they keep portraying the tax breaks for the wealthy as a tax break for the little guys And their supporters generally believe them.
I disagree. The "moderate" and "undecided" voter wants smaller deficits, less spending, more tax cuts, and more attention to whatever they think is important.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
You are upset that I'm not blaming the people that don't want progressive ideals in Governance instead of the people that want progressive ideals in Governance but voted for someone that helped prevent any chance of progressive ideals continuing to advance?
Oh, a progressive who thinks Republicans did nothing wrong. We're into whole new fucking frontiers, here!

Yes, of course I think you should blame the people who oppose your values for opposing your values. And turning that opposition into a campaign that succeeded in pushing the White House toward monarchy, and plunged three nations into pointless, bitter, merciless war... Yes, that is exactly who you should blame. The people who hate you and want you to die, and voted accordingly. They are "the most" at fault for what happened. By an enormous margin. There were 2.8 million more of them, and unlike your average Nader voter, they did what they did intentionally. That they did so on purpose rather than on accident makes them worse people, not better people, for the exact same reason that 1st degree murder is usually considered worse than 3rd degree murder. Because a lot of innocent people died right after that, and if you were a Republican, that was your plan all along. Yes, they deserve blame for that. Their hatred, their cruelty, their patanoid violence, their willingness to sacrifice other people so they can get a few cents off at the pump. Yes, they should absolutely be blamed for that.
That is, if you're going you blame anyone at all, which doesn't seem all that useful to me to begin. Fucking boomers! Never mind the country is burning, as long as its Not My Fault...
 
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You want to blame the pragmatic acceptance of the general American public with enabling fascism. No... the people in Florida that voted for Nader are responsible.
Wow, you are incredibly bad at math!
W won Florida by < 1000 votes. People who voted for Nader in Florida >>> 1000 votes.
No, Jimmy. W won Florida with 2,912,790 votes. Not a thousand.

It's funny, you "moderates" accuse "progressives" of every evil under the sun, just for our supposed disloyalty to Party we never promised loyalty to, and which promises us nothing at all. But you'll take any opportunity to excuse Republicans for being Republicans, finger-wag us for so much as daring to criticize them.... for intentionally throwing away our democracy. Never mind that we are among the most consistent of Democratic voting blocs and usually do hold our nose and vote for the Party approved candidate. Never mind that when we are doing a protest, we usually vote for a third party, as opposed to "moderates", who when discontent directly cast votes for the enemy.

But no, it's not the conservatives fault. Never the conservatives' fault. Even the ones who are registered Democrats. Yes two million people voted for George W. Bush, but it's not their fault. How could it be their fault? A few thousand environmentalists made them do it. Those poor, oppressed conservatives, forced to betray their country!
?? Bush beat Gore by 537 votes in Florida. In that election, Nader received 86,421 votes. According to exit polls, 47 percent of Nader voters would have voted for Gore, 21 percent for bush, the rest would have stayed home.
I see you are also bad at math.

Yes. 86,000 people voted for Nader. Nearly 3 million voted for Bush.

But oh, it's not their fault. Oh, those poor oppressed Republicans. They never do anything wrong, poor babies, they just wanted to commit mass murder. Well to have their grandkids commit mass murder for them. Is that so wrong?
Oh, I get it now! We shouldn’t be allowing people on the right to vote! Maybe would be better to put them in reeducation camps? (How would you define fascism?)
 
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