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Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

Is this a new gambit?

Men should be allowed into women’s spaces because…

… we call boats female.

If only Chase Straglio had thought of that.

How different would the Skrmetti case have turned out?
 
I know what you were doing. But your choice of language was utlimately your own. You didn't find it in the lips of your real interlocutors. Rather, you found it in your mind, and placed it on the lips of your imagined interlocutors. It says a lot about how you really think about women, that you are comfortable talking about them like that, even to make a point. I get into plenty of arguments with people on the internet, but you will not find me describing women the way that you do, not for any rhetorical purpose. You should be ashamed, I think. Does your mother know you "joke" about other people calling women things like that?
A lot of what you post says a lot about what you really think of women... which is pretty much that women should shut the fuck up and let any dude who claims to have special gendery feels enter female single-sex intimate spaces, and if we don't then we're evil bigoted witches for not giving men what they want.
 
This coming from the only admitted voyeur on the forum!
This post has been much discussed already, and it was mostly subjective opinion anyway, so I'll just draw attention to the two objective claims you made...

No, Emily, your victims certainly did not consent to be violated by you, let alone outed,
Emily did not out the men she was describing. This is not rocket science -- she did not supply enough identifying information for anyone to figure out which men she was referring to. You are making a blatantly false accusation; and I do not believe for a second that you did it innocently and just didn't know what it means to "out" someone.

misgendered,
Emily did not misgender the men she was describing. This is not rocket science -- "mis" is a prefix that means "wrongly", and Emily did not gender the men wrongly. She gendered them as male, and in point of fact they are of the male gender. That is gendering them rightly. The interminably-repeated canard that correctly stating someone's sex qualifies as "misgendering" provided the person identifies as the other sex is derived from equivocating "gender" with "gender identity". Equivocation is a fallacy -- one responsible for quite a few of gender ideology's counterfactual religious dogmas.
Do you also write on the internet about the crotches you've looked at in the bathroom lately? If not, why not, if there's nothing weird about doing so?
Well, since your post doesn't have anything to do with the comments you're replying to, I'll take that as a tacit admission that your objective claims were completely wrong. And you appear to have a weird attitude toward weirdness. Why on earth would whether something is weird bear on whether I do it? I don't do a lot of things that aren't weird. Different strokes for different folks. There's nothing weird about playing soccer, but I don't do it. Conversely, I do a lot of things that are weird, like listen to Beethoven, eat pineapple pizza, and waste my time fruitlessly arguing with immune-to-reason religious fanatics.

But I take it you're now fishing for me to comment on the subjective aspects of the situation. My subjective take is that when a guy puts on a skirt and goes into a ladies' room, and he chooses a skirt that doesn't hide his crotch bulge, and he reaches down and adjusts his junk out in the common area while women are present instead of going into a stall to do that, those are strong indications that not attracting attention and not getting smoked as out-of-place and not being seen adjusting his junk are probably not high priorities to him. My subjective take is therefore that your accusation that he was "violated" by a "voyeur" is a fictional narrative you projected onto the situation.
 
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A lot of what you post says a lot about what you really think of women... which is pretty much that women should shut the fuck up and let any dude who claims to have special gendery feels enter female single-sex intimate spaces, and if we don't then we're evil bigoted witches for not giving men what they want.
You're a chick and he is not.
He'll let you know when your opinions are needed or welcome.

In the meantime...
Tom
 
From what I can tell, and forgive me if I am mistaken, you seem willing to accept that sometimes there are some anomalies that cause individuals who are apparently one sex to actually be a different sex.
I accept that there are some extremely rare disorders that cause ambiguous reproductive systems, which make it difficult to discern whether the individual is male or female without additional tests. I'll further point out that those disorders come with deleterious effects, and in many cases significant health concerns outside of just fertility. They're actual medical conditions, with actual real medical problems and risks.
The outside doesn’t match the inside.
Almost never, and those extraordinarily rare cases of CAIS have nothing at all to do with transgender identity issues.
You seem fine with that EXCEPT when it comes to individuals who—again, due to a biological anomaly, feel to be male when their body appears female or who feel to be female even if they have a penis and testes.
I challenge you baseless assertion that it's a biological anomaly in the first place. Furthermore, at no point have you elaborated on what exactly is mean by "feels female". So far as I can tell, you;ve simply accepted the claim made by others that 1) transgender identified males genuinely feel like females and 2) that their feelings are congenital in nature.

Regarding the first, you haven't challenged what that even means, you've just accepted that if someone says they feel like a female, that must somehow mean the same thing to them that it means to you. I very strongly disagree, and I don't think that any of them have any basis on which to even make that claim. I don't think any of them actually feel like a female in any way that you or I or most women would recognize as being valid. I think it has just as much validity as Rachel Dolezal's assertion that she feels like a black woman - which is zero validity.

Regarding the second, there is no actual support for the claim that such feelings are congenital in nature, let alone that a congenital cause is the predominant driver. There's no more support for transgender identity being innate than there is for anorexia being innate. In fact, there's far less of it since we know that at least some portion of current "transwomen" have a transvestic paraphilia expressing with autogynephilia.
Such trans individuals feel such a level of discomfort with their bodies that they seek out surgical and hormonal interventions so that they can feel like themselves, whole and complete. Do you think they are pretending? 35 years ago, I pretty much discounted the possibility that such a phenomenon existed because I had never encountered it and because it just seemed weird.
I'm the opposite of you - 35 years ago I would have been far more inclined to accept that transexxuals need phsycial and hormonal intervention in order to obtain mental well being. Now, however, things have changed. The volume of people identifying as transgender - NOT transsexual - has skyrocketed, and a huge number of them do NOT want surgical intervention at all. In fact, a rather large number of them are extremely fond of their "ladydick" and seem to really enjoy telling actual women to suck it, as well as threatening actual women with violence and rape for the crime of objecting to bepenised individuals stripping down in front of them without consent.
And then I met pre surgical trans individuals. And other trans folks. I recognized that this was their truth and as valid as my truth that indeed, I could do math and science and play football ( tackle) and basketball despite being a girl —and a pretty small one at that. Indeed, my size was the biggest impediment. There was a world of difference between me resenting restrictions placed on girls, my dislike of the fact that I would menstruate and that I found bras uncomfortable ( and largely unnecessary except to my mother) and the expectation that whatever my achievements, I would be expected to set those aside to take care of children and husband I would surely have. I despised the sexism I grew up surrounded by—and my parents actually encouraged us to achieve whatever we could, not just in ‘girl areas.’

But never for a moment did I doubt my sex or my gender. Lucky me: they matched. As they do for almost everyone.

Almost. What is it you want trans women to do? Continue to go to the men’s room and locker room? Is it better that they risk rape than that cis women do?
Set aside your beliefs on this for a moment.

  • If a male tries to rape another male, what do you think are the odds that the victim will be able to successfully fight off his attacker?
  • If a female tries to rape another female, what do you think are the odds that the victim will be able to successfully fight off her attacker?
  • If a male tries to rape a female, what do you think are the odds that the victim will be able to successfully fight off her attacker?

For years, I've been unable to find any cases of a transgender-identifying male being sexually assaulted or raped in a male intimate space - bathroom, changing room, showers, etc. The single exception being prisons, and that's a different issue. And unlike Loren, I've done the research, I've *tried* to find them. On the other hand, I've found many cases of women being sexually assaulted or raped by transgender-identified males in female intimate spaces, as well as many cases of women being sexually assaulted or raped by men who claim to be transgender when they're arrested.

I accept that men can pose a threat to other men. I absolutely know 100% that men can pose a threat to women.

What I don't get is why on earth anyone would think that giving some males access to female intimate spaces is a reasonable solution. Especially since transgender identified males commit sexual offenses at a rate HIGHER than that of other males. Even if somehow being transgender makes a male magically safe for women to be around, and all genuine transwomen are guaranteed to present absolutely no risk to women at all... you've still created a situation in which literally any man at all can simply toss on some lipstick and say they're trans. Do you think those words are actually magic? Do you think the act of saying them is like confession, and wipes their souls clean of all tendency toward sexual offending?

I think that a good 98% of transgender identified males will be just fine in male spaces - I think most men aren't going to be bothered by their presence other than perhaps a second glance. But I also fully support making individual use unisex restrooms available for use, so that those very few small-boned, delicate, transsexuals who don't pass have somewhere they can feel safe.

I absolutely do NOT think that women should be expected to serve as security blankets for Eddie Izzard or Sarah McBride just so their feelings don't get hurt.
Yes, there are absolutely bad actors who exploit laws and rules and some do so explicitly to gain access to victims. That is something that I also worry about. I DO worry about girls and women facing fear and trauma in supposedly safe spaces from bad actors. Unfortunately, that is not a zero risk. Fortunately, it is a much smaller risk than the risk girls and women ( cis or trans) face every single day, usually from someone they should be able to trust.

I think that sexual assault is a different issue than trans vs cis rights. And much much more prevalent and insidious.
I don't think you can pry the two apart. If you have some actual plan that somehow provides greater protection to transgender-identified males and does NOT increase risk to women, and does NOT increase the access to women for sexual predators, then please put that forth.

But as it stands right now... there is no way to tell them apart. There's no way to tell whether the male in our midst is a harmless genuine transwoman or whether they're a flasher/voyeur/offender exploiting some lipstick to gain access to nonconsenting victims.
 
No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.
Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.
Don't play games. And you know this is a rhetorical game, Toni. The context is plants and animals - sexually reproducing species. You know damned good and well that male and female refer to reproductive roles within those species, and we're not talking about the tradition of calling ships "her".
 
I know what you were doing. But your choice of language was utlimately your own. You didn't find it in the lips of your real interlocutors. Rather, you found it in your mind, and placed it on the lips of your imagined interlocutors. It says a lot about how you really think about women, that you are comfortable talking about them like that, even to make a point. I get into plenty of arguments with people on the internet, but you will not find me describing women the way that you do, not for any rhetorical purpose. You should be ashamed, I think. Does your mother know you "joke" about other people calling women things like that?
My choice of language was sexist, because I was mocking the sexism of the men who seem to have no concern for an issue that primarily affects women, and girls.

If you’re bothered by that, boo-fucking-hoo.

Grow up.
 
They don't use those words, but they say it a lot.
No, we don't. And I don't think decent people do use those words.
Essentially, that is exactly what Loren is saying. It’s not an issue for him, therefore it is an inconsequential figment of our imagination that we should get over. Like rape, menstrual cramps, birth control side effects, etc.
Not just Loren.
Also all the other people, mostly dudes, who just don't understand why chicks want stuff that the dudes don't care about.
Like a man free place for personal business.
Tom
Or adjustable seat belts for that matter.
 
The point is that you said that because most could easily be classified that it must be binary.

I'm presenting a counterexample--something where most can easily be classified, but which unquestionably is a spectrum, not binary.
I don't even have words for what kind of fallacy this is. I suspect it's more than one.

For all intents... dogs can be a range of sizes, therefore jellyfish can write novels.
 
No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.
Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.
So are you saying male and female don’t refer to biological sex in this situation?

Was the discussion actually about male and female electrical sockets?
I'm saying that biological sex is NOT limited to the compliment of X and Y chromosomes an individual possesses.
For the bazillionth time... sex is not defined by chromosomes.

Do you agree that all mammals have evolved to reproduce sexually?
Do you agree that within mammals, there exist only two types of gametes?
Has there evolved a different type of reproductive system other than that associated with large gametes and that associated with small gametes?
 
Also all the other people, mostly dudes, who just don't understand why chicks want stuff that the dudes don't care about.
"Chicks", likewise.

And this meme that anyone who supports trans rights must not care about women is inrellectually and ethically moribund to begin with, no matter how you voice it. Especially since those who voice it primarily target trans women.
Transwomen are men.

They're not being targeted in this discussion for being trans, they're being targeted because they're MEN WHO DEMAND THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO OVERRIDE FEMALE BOUNDARIES AND SHOW THEIR DICKS TO NONCONSENTING WOMEN.

It is intellectually dishonest for you to argue that some males should have the legal right to peep at or expose themselves to females in female-specific single-sex intimate spaces based on what they claim out loud about their subjective and unverifiable internal feelings, and then also pretend like you give a fuck about females. Clearly you don't care about female boundaries when those boundaries get in the way of male's happy feelings.
 
I know what you were doing. But your choice of language was utlimately your own. You didn't find it in the lips of your real interlocutors. Rather, you found it in your mind, and placed it on the lips of your imagined interlocutors. It says a lot about how you really think about women, that you are comfortable talking about them like that, even to make a point. I get into plenty of arguments with people on the internet, but you will not find me describing women the way that you do, not for any rhetorical purpose. You should be ashamed, I think. Does your mother know you "joke" about other people calling women things like that?
My choice of language was sexist, because I was mocking the sexism of the men who seem to have no concern for an issue that primarily affects women, and girls.

If you’re bothered by that, boo-fucking-hoo.

Grow up.
And be honest, you do think women should accept males into women’s prisons, changing rooms, showers, hospital wards, restrooms, intimate care settings, and sports.

As long as they consider themselves women.

That’s enough.

Of course we’ll have to take their word for that.
 
Imagine believing mg on a first date with a woman you find highly attractive. During the course of dinner, you realize you really need to take a dump—office taco Tuesday strikes hard! And when you excuse yourself for the restroom, she says she needs to powder her nose, too!

How comfortable will you be if she checks herself into the stall next to you?
And gays/lesbians somehow manage to avoid being harmed by this??
????? LGBTQIA individuals have a higher than average risk of being sexually assaults. Usually by males.
The reference was the bathroom. You were talking about the discomfort from your date being in the next stall.
Then your response really is nonsensical.
The claimed issue was one's date in the next stall. But that's the reality of gays and lesbians, why isn't it a big deal for them?
I don’t know. I’m not gay so I cannot comment about what is or is not an issue for gay/lesbian people. It isn’t even an issue fur all straight women. It’s been ….,decades since I dated but I definitely can imagine that if I were on a first date with a man, I would probably not want to go to the same restroom at the same time as my date. Not that I am anticipating that situation.

I do know from the brief period of time when I occasionally cleaned a movie theater that men’s bathrooms were extremely gross compared with women’s bathrooms. One thing that stuck out for me was that someone defecated in a urinal. My assumption is that it was a male and that he was intoxicated. Men’s rooms had a lot more splashing ( walls, floors) of urine and were more likely to have feces smeared on the walls. Women’s bathrooms were far from pristine but the worst was an over-full container for used sanitary products.

I really do not understand what it is that you are lacking that you cannot accept that some things are important to women that are not important to you. But that’s a problem
for you to work on, not for me to solve.
Completely non-responsive.

The problem here is I keep hearing reasons for it that don't add up. When reasons keep not adding up that usually means people don't want to admit the true reason, and that the true reason tends to be discriminatory.
 
Well it is discriminatory.

Females want female only spaces in some circumstances.

That requires discriminating against males, to prevent them from accessing those spaces.

And trans women are males.

This is not complicated.
 
I'm saying that biological sex is NOT limited to the compliment of X and Y chromosomes an individual possesses.

What’s the relevance of “a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives” being described as male or female?

Given we’re discussing actual people, and their biological reality?
Are we?

You do not seem at all interested in people’s biological reality or the actual biology behind sex, gene expression, etc. you seem completely hung up on only the reproductive function of sex, which is weird because people engage in non-reproductive sex all the time.
 
Imagine believing mg on a first date with a woman you find highly attractive. During the course of dinner, you realize you really need to take a dump—office taco Tuesday strikes hard! And when you excuse yourself for the restroom, she says she needs to powder her nose, too!

How comfortable will you be if she checks herself into the stall next to you?
And gays/lesbians somehow manage to avoid being harmed by this??
????? LGBTQIA individuals have a higher than average risk of being sexually assaults. Usually by males.
The reference was the bathroom. You were talking about the discomfort from your date being in the next stall.
Then your response really is nonsensical.
The claimed issue was one's date in the next stall. But that's the reality of gays and lesbians, why isn't it a big deal for them?
I don’t know. I’m not gay so I cannot comment about what is or is not an issue for gay/lesbian people. It isn’t even an issue fur all straight women. It’s been ….,decades since I dated but I definitely can imagine that if I were on a first date with a man, I would probably not want to go to the same restroom at the same time as my date. Not that I am anticipating that situation.

I do know from the brief period of time when I occasionally cleaned a movie theater that men’s bathrooms were extremely gross compared with women’s bathrooms. One thing that stuck out for me was that someone defecated in a urinal. My assumption is that it was a male and that he was intoxicated. Men’s rooms had a lot more splashing ( walls, floors) of urine and were more likely to have feces smeared on the walls. Women’s bathrooms were far from pristine but the worst was an over-full container for used sanitary products.

I really do not understand what it is that you are lacking that you cannot accept that some things are important to women that are not important to you. But that’s a problem
for you to work on, not for me to solve.
Completely non-responsive.

The problem here is I keep hearing reasons for it that don't add up. When reasons keep not adding up that usually means people don't want to admit the true reason, and that the true reason tends to be discriminatory.
No, the problem here is that you have a very narrow understanding of reality and it seems to be entirely based upon your own personal experiences and perceptions. And it’s not limited to this discussion, btw.

If it lies outside your own personal world view, you see it as a problem.

But at least you have stopped trying to cast any other pov than your own as ‘religion.’
 
The biological reality is that there are two sexes, because those are the evolved reproductive roles.

Sexual activity has nothing to do with it.

Neither does actual reproduction.

I’m pretty sure this has been pointed out to you before.
 
No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.
Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.
So are you saying male and female don’t refer to biological sex in this situation?

Was the discussion actually about male and female electrical sockets?
I'm saying that biological sex is NOT limited to the compliment of X and Y chromosomes an individual possesses.
For the bazillionth time... sex is not defined by chromosomes.

Do you agree that all mammals have evolved to reproduce sexually?
Do you agree that within mammals, there exist only two types of gametes?
Has there evolved a different type of reproductive system other than that associated with large gametes and that associated with small gametes?
What exactly do you think is the importance of gametes? What do you think ganetes are composed of?
 
The biological reality is that there are two sexes, because those are the evolved reproductive roles.

Sexual activity has nothing to do with it.

Neither does actual reproduction.

I’m pretty sure this has been pointed out to you before.
Of course sexual activity has everything to do with it! If human sexual intercourse did not result in producing a fetus that would eventually be born with its own genetic make up, based on what is contributed by the sperm and ovum, humans would have died out a long time ago.

When I was growing up, I absolutely rejected the notion that what one could or should do was denoted by what was in one’s pants and I still do.

And so do you, outside of this narrow discussion.
 
No, that’s not what male and female refer to.

Male and female refer to the two reproductive sexes that exist across a vast array of plants and animals.

Hiking equipment notwithstanding.
Male and female are terms assigned to a vast array of objects and behaviors and even laws and mores and educational objectives, etc.
Don't play games. And you know this is a rhetorical game, Toni. The context is plants and animals - sexually reproducing species. You know damned good and well that male and female refer to reproductive roles within those species, and we're not talking about the tradition of calling ships "her".
Make and female refers to far more than the role indicated visuals play in reproduction.

Abd you know it.
 
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